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Post by think again on Jul 17, 2007 13:18:10 GMT
Local shows - don't you just love them! They are so useful for bringing our youngsters and starting off new combinations of horse and rider but good grief don't they just take the biscuit! The conversation went like this - Me - Are you going to go straight on with the championship - the ring seems to be empty? Judge - We are just waiting for my neice - she won the in-hand class!!!!!!! Guess who didn't stay for the championship - and who won it!
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Post by Lovethem on Jul 17, 2007 14:19:32 GMT
The organisers of local shows are great, they do a thankless job and I agree, they are a great platform for ironing out 'probelms' but sometimes!!!! We took our welshie out last month, to a show with SWPA qualifers, this is his 1st year on grass doing WHP, in the M+M WHP class he was a complete idiot, but we had also entered in the 13.2hh and under WHP class, on entering the ring the judge pointed out he was not plaited and my daughter pointed out he was being shown as a native, judge was not happy but pony went on t o jump lovely clear round and beautiful show, he was the best in the class by far and he won, however the judge kept on about how she really should not be putting him up due to the lack of plaits. We did not get a qualification ticket and when I enquired about it later, was told it would be looked into and to come back, which i did, and was told that i could not have ticket as pony was M+M and had won in a plaited class!!! I just said thank you and left it at that, if these classes were not open to M+M's why did it not say so in the schedule??
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Post by freddo on Jul 17, 2007 19:09:42 GMT
I can beat that !!!!!!!!
Beaten last week by a 14h2in pony with lead rein attatched to bit in a ........wait for it........... a lead rein pony class. he he bloody he!
Mind you not suprising really as the judge had to phone the secretary(whilst in the ring) to ask HOW to judge the class!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by dun4u on Jul 17, 2007 21:35:20 GMT
It is such a pity that many local show organisers can't get their Schedules right. All it needs is a few height limits, age limits, simple wording etc beneath each class and it would make life so much easier for Judges. Mind you, looking at your post, freddo, it may not make a lot of difference to some Judges!
Why do these so-called 'Judges' accept the job when they know (and every body else knows)that they have no idea what they are doing? I wouldn't dream of accepting a Judging request for workers as I have no real knowledge of the rules, although I am very happy to officiate at ordinary local-level showing classes. I think the time may have come for there to be some sort of govening body for Local Un-affiliated Showing, with a few guidelines for Judges and Exhibitors alike.
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Post by howzis then on Jul 17, 2007 21:51:51 GMT
went to a local on sunday, did the 3 year old class, we walked around for ages, then steward stopped us in the corner and made us walk....yes walk? ?? to the rear of the line?? then in the m&m ridden a pony with 3 ring gag, white dressage square and huge plaits was placed 2nd? OH DEAR!!
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tj
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Post by tj on Jul 17, 2007 22:04:26 GMT
I've been beaten by a hafflinger and a coloured cob in an m&m class before. There are plenty of people (particularly, but not exclusively, young potential affiliated judges) who would love the experience of judging at local level and would do a d**n sight better than the owner of the local riding school or the secretary's mother.
We work so hard organising an unaffiliated show, and get a mixture of panel judges and those we've been impressed with when I've been judged by them or "young judges" coming through the BSPS. Hopefully competitors appreciate our efforts.
Poor judging at this level can put people off showing for life, especially if they are very slow, have their friends/family to win etc
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Post by daffodil on Jul 18, 2007 7:54:32 GMT
I think we all agree that organisers of local shows do a grand job. But some times perhaps they should get some advice from people with wider knowledge, i.e affilated judges , some one that does a lot of affiliated showing. Organisers should also be a bit more open minded about who does the judging, how often is it the same judge year after year for the same classes, I have offered my services, as have many of my friends, more often than not the organisers opt to stick with, the vicars wife, local tack shop owner, or a friend that rode about a million years ago! I was recently asked to judge a coloured class at a local show but had to decline explaining I knew nothing about coloureds, I was told 'Oh! It does'nt matter, just pick the one you like best'
Many years ago I had a young hairy that I entered right at the end of the season in a BTO M+M class, it was his first time out and I thought it would be a good start, I did not expect to win but was rather surprised when the judge gave 1st prize to a Sec B with a coloured browband that would not have been out of place at HOYS it was so flamboyant, the rider next to me pointed this out to the judge, who replied she did'nt care, she liked the pony!! All this stories are funny, but they do nothing to promote showing and the standard at local level does seem to be getting worse.
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foxy
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Post by foxy on Jul 18, 2007 8:12:16 GMT
Surely the charm of local shows is their lack of sophistication and giving them all a whole load of rules would spoil that.After all we all know what to expect...the unexpected!! We wouldn't have all these lovely funny stories to tell either. After doing a few riding club type shows it's lovely to get back to the discipline of regular showing and I think we would lose something if we didn't have that contrast. Lets leave local shows as they are and if we don't like the unexpected and the chance to pick up a few more anecdotes then don't go.
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Post by love them on Jul 18, 2007 10:34:00 GMT
Fair point Foxy, they are fun and many work very hard for others to enjoy, especially as local shows do seem to be in the decline, with out those volunteers, and their hard work, there would be none at all
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Post by also judge on Jul 18, 2007 13:18:08 GMT
I judge at local level quite regularly and am pleased to say I havent had anycomplaints.
I agree there are some chows which make it hard for the judge to decipher - let alone the competitors, which is why I make a point of clarifying information BEFORE i start the classes.
I also give everyone a fair chance to compete, for example, I judged at one club last year and again this year and am pleased to say the stnadard of horses and riders has improved 100% so has ringcraft, all from advice and tips I gave the previous year.
I judged one class which was 'have a go off the lead rein' there was one particular pony which slipped in the class late, so didnt see it on the go round. When it came out I saw it had a 3 ring gag in, which is obviously unfair as it being a snaffle class. I said it shouldnt have this bit but I will see the show. Needless to say they got 6th out of 6. I saw same pony again at next show but saw it coming in, before they entered I again told them the rules and said they would need to change the bit in order to be judged fairly. It turned out the pony actually went better for the rider with the snaffle (due to novice hands and less severe bit) so getting 3rd out of 8. She was really pleased.
Although they were saying this pony is strong i.e for jumping, I explained they are actually making it harder for the novice rider by keeping the gag in.
Also, I have been in situations where the class rules are not clear and Ive been told - 'judge is as you see fit'. In that case I have to justify to competitors how I judge it and I do say at the beginning what is required by them in order to impress me. I.e - I dont say "go and do me a short show" then say 2i was judging on how many different things you showed me" thats unfair.
Dont mean to waffle but this was purely my reason for wanting to judge, due to this unfair judging and not knowing what they are looking for etc. I act as like an advisor and If I feel there is someone who let themselves drop a place i.e wrong canter lead etc, then I tell them thats all it was. Its all about encouragement at this stage. Im a strong believer of that.
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Post by Love them on Jul 18, 2007 14:03:51 GMT
That is what local shows are all about, a judge helping riders, especially youngsters, explaining wrong leg, inappropriate bit etc, this is how they learn, unfortunately many judges do not offer any help, do not piont out they should not be using a certain bit, have a coloured browband on an M+M. To all who help out with help and advice, keep up the good work
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 18, 2007 14:19:04 GMT
Having been on the committee of a local riding club in the past, I can confirm it is very hard work. We give up our weekends for no reward, so that you can come out and have fun and get some experience with your ponies. When I am so knackered I can hardly stand up on a sunday afternoon I don't need people giving me grief over a judges decision. At this level, relax, enjoy your day and if you go home with a rosette, its a bonus. If you are more competitive than this, then maybe you need to be competing at a higher level?
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Post by think again on Jul 18, 2007 17:14:13 GMT
Love the comments especially the 14.2 lead rein. Was not criticising local shows in general but do feel that the judges should at least not judge their relatives! I would like to give you one more funny story. M and M at first local show. Judge says this pony won't be any good he has dreadful fetlocks. Asked who judge was - told her sister had judged Crufts. Not too worried though pony went on to many. many championships, HOYS etc. and his fetlocks were never mentioned again. Keep up the good work local show orgainsers but do take advice if you are not sure and do get a judge who knows at least a bit about the job.
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Post by Locals on Jul 18, 2007 19:06:58 GMT
Local shows are fantastic for young horses and great for sorting problems because nobody sees them being naughty or not looking their best! It's a shame more people don't go to local shows before attempting the bigger buzzier shows! I must admit sometimes the judges are pretty poor. I have had many experiences.
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Post by howzis then on Jul 18, 2007 20:37:43 GMT
some really funny stories! i love the locals, like as someome said before you can work on young horses, and iron out problems, and some of the judging is just hilarious, i take it with a pinch of salt! it's about having fun at this level, but it would be nice to have good judges who can help and advise, as i am sure this would set a great deal more people on the road to move onto better things, although i must dmit the standards of the locals in my area have improved over the last few years. one thing i cannot understand though, is people who buy a county level horse and never get any further than pot hunting all the local shows and never move on to the next level, happens in dressage too, how odd???
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 18, 2007 20:45:35 GMT
Actually, its sometimes really hard to find quality judges who will come to a small show, when we probably can only offer them petrol money, especially if you happen to clash with a larger show nearby (we did try to avoid this!). At the end of the day the only reward I got for a weekends work was the look on a kid's face when they were given that rosette or trophy, and that made all the grief worthwhile. I appreciate you pay your entry money, but the club I helped at ploughed all the money back into buying trophies for the end of the season, none of us made any financial gain, it all went back to the members.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2007 7:23:22 GMT
At our local show this year we have the BLACKSMITH judging the M&M classes, yes, ok he knows about feet, but, I wouldn't attempt or accept to shoe a pony, so why has he accepted to judge? it just gives everyone a false picture. I know its unaffiliated but he is not a judge and many of us have worked years and attended study days to get onto the panels we are on, we are always willing to give up our time to judge, all we ever ask is petrol money. It is good to support your local show every year as we do, but this is just a joke, and it makes you wonder why?
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Post by love them on Jul 19, 2007 8:17:20 GMT
Milliesmum..Don't think anyone has questioned what happens to money made at local shows on this thread, most realise it goes to local charities and the shows themselves need financing. Certainly, when I have done some local judging I have never expected to be paid and have not even been offered petrol money, a judge usually gets lunch provided and perhaps a nice plant or some chocs. If I did not want to give my time freely, to help the cause, so to speak, I would not do it
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foxy
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Post by foxy on Jul 19, 2007 8:27:51 GMT
Oh dear cayberry,don't be soooo up your own whatsit,relax have a bit of fun or don't go.How do you know what experience your farrier has? He may have ridden champions at the RIHS or HOYS ( as mine did as a younger man and I would back his judgement and knowledge of a good horse above many other so called experts.) After all he is on and off yards all day long some of which contain some of the best horses in the country. Don't be so sniffy ,there are always more experts outside the ring than in it.!!
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Post by Why not on Jul 19, 2007 8:29:52 GMT
I wouldn't have any objections to my farrier judging at a local show. He certainly knows his conformation and knows the difference between a M+M and a SHP.
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 19, 2007 13:14:07 GMT
love them - its great that you are willing to give up your time freely to judge at local shows, all I am saying is that having done that you don't want your ear bent by a disgruntled competitor. Of course all judges should be happy to offer constructive comments if approached in a proper manner.
These shows would not be able to run without such people volunteering, so please could some of those experts outside the ring give a helping hand, I'm sure it would be appreciated.
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Post by Racehorseman on Jul 19, 2007 14:23:42 GMT
I think local shows are a great place to start and agree with what most have said. I think also judge your points are spot on. I had judge for many years at local level before moving areas, l believed it was important to give constructive feedback to all and advice to anyone that might have required it. What l don't believe in is when owners/riders totally abuse you in the ring when you are giving constructive critisim. I remember on one ocassion a competitor saying to me that her horse had won everytime out to date including 4 county wins. I explained that l have judged the horse on the day and it plaits in front...She became extremely abusive , so l asked her for her 2nd place rosette back (only three in the class,third had a horrendous back) and politely asked her to leave the ring. She throw the rosette back at me, l politely said thank you. With the class finished she approched me again... and again became very verbal, reiterating the shows she had supposedly won at, l was actually able to tell her her placing at these shows, she was last on three ocassions and 3rd last on the other. She stormed off and lodged a complaint to the secretary. Nothing materialised from this .
The following season she saw me at a local county show and approached me to apologise for her behaviour stating l got it because l was a man (what that was suppose to have meant god only knows)..she told me that i was right regarding the horse plaiting and as a consequence she has sold that particular horse. I never had the fortune to judge her again ..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2007 15:48:31 GMT
Foxy, the blacksmith in question is a man I've known since I was tiny, he is 80 and has only ever been the local blacksmith, don't suppose he's been out of the village, why the attitude, can't you see my point? or maybe you don't want to! maybe you just want to have a go, ok that's fine, carry on.
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foxy
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Post by foxy on Jul 19, 2007 16:30:01 GMT
Don't do "having a go".Read your post back and see what you sounded like. Local shows are for local personalities to have a fun day out. If you want to take it seriously stick to affiliated showing and don't be so patronising.
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sash
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Post by sash on Jul 19, 2007 20:01:30 GMT
forgoodness sake why does every single thread turn into an argument! and its just bit*hing about everthing!! local shows are fab for the younger ones(ponys) for a start the workers are much smaller so if you have a young or inexperienced horse/pony its nice too get them out without any pressure and my mother helps organise our pony club show every year and we get the best judges we can and the get lunch and tea but unfortunatley we cannot afford too pay them as it is for a charity. xxx
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Post by Daphne on Jul 19, 2007 22:17:50 GMT
I was really enjoying this thread as I love local shows and had to smile at some of the stories on here. We mustn't take other peoples' comments to heart too much and sometimes we translate the meaning of posts incorrectly.
Anyway, to get back to the subject in hand, I do agree that it is nice to have 'proper' judges who really know what they are doing and not likely to know any of the exhibits. I do believe that some Society judges are required to Judge at least one local and one Riding Club Show every year as well as their usual stint of Judging at affiliated level.
It really comes down to the Secretary who should start looking to book her Judges early on in the year and not leave it to the last minute to ask the local Riding School owner or even the Whipper-in from the local Hunt Kennels. They are probably both very knowledgable in their own 'field' but showing, as we all know, is a very different ball game.
I was at a Hunt show a couple of years ago when, halfway through watching the Hunter Class, we suddenly realised that the ride Judge (the whipper-in) was wearing spurs!! Either the competitors hadn't noticed or else too shy to say anything; the horses didn't seem bothered, anyway.
The passages below were taken from a very good little book called 'An Introduction to Local Showing' which covers just about everything. I think it just about sums it up.
'There was a time, not that long ago, when nearly every village held it’s own annual Horse Show and Gymkhana. They were run by local horsey people and proceeds went to local charities. Perhaps that is why the few shows that are left are still called ‘local’. This little book is dedicated to all those people who still support their local shows and compete just for the fun of it.'
If you get the chance, try to find the Secretary (she probably won’t be far from the Secretary’s tent) and thank her and her fellow volunteers for a good day, before you go home. Believe me, it makes all the difference. Running a Show requires a lot of forward planning, organising and physical hard work. It can be very stressful trying to ensure that everything runs smoothly and according to plan. There must be absolutely no glitches which could possible lead to complaints. Occasionally there is a complaint and its usually about something quite trivial, (although the complainant might not think so!), so to have someone come up and thank us for a lovely day means everything! It makes it all seem worthwhile and we start planning ahead for the following year!
from the Glossary:- Manners (1) Manners in the Horse – having respect for its human counterpart, knowing how to behave in company; not bolshy, pushy or spiteful, well disciplined.
Manners (2) Manners in the Exhibitor – Should not need explaining but surprisingly, often lacking.
Secretary - Possible the most stressful job of all, but also often the most rewarding. N.B. The SECRETARY on the day of the Show is not always the same poor soul who organised everything beforehand – nevertheless, they all take a lot of flack and deserve recognition. What do you think???
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Post by also judge on Jul 20, 2007 8:58:31 GMT
Daphne I think that sums it up, most of the time if ppl just said "thank you, the show was great/well organised/good judges etc" to the show committee it would make their day.
I always make a point of commenting on the show/classes etc. and thank the show committee for inviting me to judge. Rather than the arrogant "you needed a judge and Ive saved the day" kind of attitude (which I have witnessed many a time)
Another point about good locas judges is general ring etiquette, i.e - it was a hot day I was judging and the competitors were told by show committee they had to keep the standard of show high and do not remove their jackets whilst in class. Because of this I did not remove mine either. I see this as double standards if I were to. Drank PLENTY of water! but kept my jacket on.!!
There are just as many 'facey judges' at county level too, if not more! At least at this level the competitors can have some feedback/advice regarding their show/turnout/ringcraft etc, so they can be confident when they do move up the ladder..its then that lots of facey judges' will knock them back down which is a huge shame.
As far as being free, Ive always been paid when Ive judged..even when ive rejected it, the club has always paid me well. One even paid me double as Ive doubled the amount of members!!!! (lots more turn out when I judge) I dont mean that in a big headed way but Im pleased, and so are they as I rememjber them all and they like to show before me to get a 'progress report' i guess!!!
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Post by also judge on Jul 20, 2007 9:00:09 GMT
Sorry - forgot to say thank you racehorseman for your comments
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Post by nffan on Jul 23, 2007 9:54:31 GMT
I wouldn't have any objections to my farrier judging at a local show. He certainly knows his conformation and knows the difference between a M+M and a SHP. He may know about conformation and the difference between M&M and SHP, but does he know about each M&M Breed...local shows are great for getting people into showing, however when they have a judge who does not know his/her breeds it is not good it does not help the competitors. Posted by foxy on Jul 19, 2007, 8:27am Oh dear cayberry,don't be soooo up your own whatsit,relax have a bit of fun or don't go.How do you know what experience your farrier has? He may have ridden champions at the RIHS or HOYS ( as mine did as a younger man and I would back his judgement and knowledge of a good horse above many other so called experts.) After all he is on and off yards all day long some of which contain some of the best horses in the country. Don't be so sniffy ,there are always more experts outside the ring than in it.!! Foxy - This is uncalled for firstly Cayberry is not 'sniffy' you need to read the posts carefully. Secondly Cayberry does know what she talking about being on many panels herself. I have been judged by her twice and seen her judge on many occasions and found her friendly, knowledgable and very fair. Their are plenty of people on panels who would judge at local shows if the shows asked, many local shows ask the same people or their friends year in and year out instead of trying some new judges and as someone else pointed put why not ask some of the new and probabtioning judges....
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 23, 2007 10:03:57 GMT
The club whose committee I was on had a book of people who were willing to come and judge, and it was a case of phoning round the numbers in the book to see who was free on what day. We can't contact you if we don't know who or where you are!
Those of you out there who are willing to step in, make yourself known to show secretaries I know they will be very grateful to have your help. These small clubs are always crying out for extra help, both judging and on the ground on the day.
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