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Post by watchbank on Oct 18, 2012 14:00:43 GMT
With BITS... Ive recently seen a wilkie waterford snaffle on a double bridle, a bubble bit with 1 rein on the larger loop and a flash, a waterford snaffle on a 4 year old and when girl added pressure to ask pony to stop it went straight up in the air and back on its self... sometimes i wonder why people feel the need to be so harsh with bits when really just proper schooling would help alot! Someone please tell me im not the only person who thinks like this?
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pacha
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Post by pacha on Oct 18, 2012 14:03:53 GMT
People do it, because they have no time for proper schooling or simply have no basic horsemanship skills, so many animals get ruined by stupid people, grrrrr you are not alone rachnri, and im sure there are many out there that feel the same
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Post by watchbank on Oct 18, 2012 14:05:45 GMT
I got very pee'd off at the 4 year old with the waterford.. i thought serves u dam right for putting so much bit and harshness in its mouth poor bugger
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Post by tabbycat on Oct 18, 2012 14:27:48 GMT
Ignorance !!! dare I say it laziness with regard to schooling , listening to silly people who think they know better .
On a brighter note my daughter was told by the judge last weekend how nice it was to see a novice pony being jumped in a snaffle with no gadgets !!! and let me tell you it has taken alot of hard work but she has a very good mouth and no she isn't 4 she is 6 there are never any real shortcuts with horses the only shortcut I know is the route to disaster !!!
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Post by kirsten91 on Oct 18, 2012 14:56:31 GMT
Complete laziness and people looking for a "quick fix", they make me sick! xx
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Post by GinaGeo on Oct 18, 2012 15:15:05 GMT
It's not good at all and is not the way to have a horse working truely.
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Post by watchbank on Oct 18, 2012 15:46:38 GMT
And people who make or design things like a waterford should be shot!!!Discraceful
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Post by GinaGeo on Oct 18, 2012 15:56:22 GMT
Hmm, a waterford used in the right hands for the right reason is in my opinion perfectly acceptable, it's a very useful bit when used correctly. Although, I wouldn't encourage it's long term use as it's never going to give you a true feel with a horse working properly.
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Post by sometime on Oct 18, 2012 16:06:33 GMT
Hmm not sure I would agree about the waterford either as a bit is only as bad or good as the hands on the reins. What I object to more is the use, on every shape and size of horse, of bubble gags used with flash or grackle nosebands I personally like a nice french link snaffle and a caveson noseband and every horse should be able to be ridden like that sadly all the new fangled fashions and the bad starting/schooling of horses has led to a plethora of more and more sever and restrictive bits and nose bands. Having said that My highland is very happy in her hanging cheek waterford as it bends round her fat mouth and is quite a soft bit for her she is ridden in a cavesson nose band though. I helps the kids to hold her as well as she can be a bit strong sometimes for little people With anyone else she wears an eggbutt french link
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Post by 09rebel99 on Oct 18, 2012 16:07:10 GMT
Good old french link loose ring snaffle lol!! I have never used any of the posh bits that are around these days and don't think I would if they had been available. I use to do my workers in the french link and my flats in a plain double no fancy bradoon. And if I fancied the workers and didn't have the french link I just use to use the bradoon off my double. Sometimes I even rebelled and used the french link snaffle to do an open flat class!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2012 16:08:35 GMT
Don't get me started on bits! I mortally hate Wilkies and the action they have.
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Post by watchbank on Oct 18, 2012 16:24:51 GMT
Childrens ponies in wilkies is never a good look but thats a whole different thread! lol
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sarahp
Happy to help
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Post by sarahp on Oct 18, 2012 16:45:45 GMT
Agreed, waterfords have a place and aren't as bad as they look, but not on a 4yo. and would anyone who would do that have educated enough hands for one anyway?
There are far too many queries on here along the lines of "my horse does such and such, what bit should I use to cure it?" for my liking. Usually the answer is schooling.
Mind you, I had never seen a double jointed bit until well grown up, in my younger days there were only single jointed snaffles. My first one was a revelation, and from then on always my first port of call.
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Post by vikki85 on Oct 18, 2012 16:57:57 GMT
I know this is slightly off topic, but as we're on the subject of bits and other gadgets, I don't get the obsession with martingales. Why do a very high percentage of WH ponies wear them? Most of them look like they don't even need them, are they just there for decoration? I've never ever needed a martingale on any of my jumping ponies.
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Post by GinaGeo on Oct 18, 2012 18:20:53 GMT
I do admit to using a martingale on my Connie for hacking, jumping and hunting. His evasion is to stick his head in the air and run through the bridle. He rarely does it now and so for schooling it's not there, but in certain situations where control is necessary I do use one. I jump him at home without one and do hack out without one if I'm not expecting to do faster work. I use it in place of a stronger bit, although he does hunt in a double bridle, with the martingale on the bradoon rein, if he does take a pull I'd rather a small squeeze with a curb then a battle in a snaffle. Although I did hunt him in just a snaffle last year, I certainly ache less after taking him the double and he must appreciate it too.
He might not be beautifully schooled by dressage standards, he hates schooling with a passion and has melanoma's in his salivary glands which makes working in an "outline" very difficult for him. He is however, impeccably responsive to my seat, leg and voice and can do the low level lateral work very well, just not in a true outline - so it's not a schooling issue I can really work on. A martingale on out hunting will also make it harder for the reins to come over the horse's head in the event of a fall so many use them for this.
My youngster is in a snaffle bit, with a cavesson noseband and has never had any sort of gadget on and this how I intend to keep him going. He's no need for anything else and has been hound exercising, Jumping and Dressaging rather well in the same tackle.
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Post by vikki85 on Oct 18, 2012 18:36:23 GMT
I can totally understand your use of a martingale ginageo, they do obviously have their place and you use yours very responsibly by the sound of it. It just seems that some people use them just for the sake of it.
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Post by judyh on Oct 18, 2012 18:39:53 GMT
My daughter's horse was never happy in his mouth until we tried him in a Waterford. Yes he is schooled well balanced and comes through from behind . He just loves the bit and it is now used for hacking,jumping and school work. Doubt we would show him again but if we did would use a Pelham with a Waterford mouth. My cob is always ridden in a double and use the snaffle-the curb is there if it is needed.
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pacha
Full Member
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Post by pacha on Oct 18, 2012 18:50:36 GMT
Of course what a lot of people want these days is the horse ''on the bit'' trouble is not many are lol, most are behind the bit with their back end trailing behind, but of course as long as the head is dipped and ''on the bit'' and looks pretty ( sorry but it looks awful ) who cares they still win, like i said earlier in my other post, it's bad horsemanship skills and a quick fix
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Post by jinja on Oct 18, 2012 19:04:12 GMT
It depends on the pony as well, we have a pony that is so sensitive in her mouth you have to have such a light contact and she has to be ridden very sympathetically. Our other pony is at other end of the scale, a strong cob that has driven and has no respect for any bit. My daughter is a lovely rider with a lot of experience but if the pony wants to pull and tank off that is just what she will do. We manage with very little schooling as it is the only way to keep her sweet, most of the time she will oblige but if the mood takes her she is like a runaway train.
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dogpoo
Junior Member
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Post by dogpoo on Oct 18, 2012 19:44:12 GMT
A Waterford mouthpiece is actually quite mild (but totally inappropriate for a 4yo) also a waterford wilkie would have no action at all, it it a TOTALLY pointless invention!!!
The Waterford is a series of links giving a very flexable mouthpiece so to exerts next to no direct pressure on the bars of the mouth or tongue (try pushing it down on your arm compared to the nutcracker action of a single jointed mouthpiece) It is used on horses than lean down on the bit as it doesn't give them anything fixed to lean on, it is also useful in cobs with fat tongues and small mouths as it allows space and movement in their tongues. IT IS A TOOL NOT A SOLUTION As far as steering goes it is pretty hopeless unless in a sensitve, responsive mouth (in which case you wouldn't need it).
The leverage action of a wilkie works by effectively squashing the horses head between the headpiece and mouthpiece. If the mouthpiece is as bendy as a waterford is the poll pressure would be almost nill. All it would do in a young horse is confuse it totally, offer no guidence an if used with a double would mean you were effectively riding off the curb casuing more problems than it 'solved'
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Post by sometime on Oct 18, 2012 21:17:55 GMT
Dont think I have ever seen a waterford mouthpiece on a wilkie bit but maybe it exists Perhaps all the new fashions are just that fashion nothing wrong in my view with an plain loose ring jointed snaffle and it derivatives and they are cheaper too Not sure why a waterford is not dressage legal though
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Post by watchbank on Oct 18, 2012 21:58:42 GMT
Dont think I have ever seen a waterford mouthpiece on a wilkie bit but maybe it exists Perhaps all the new fashions are just that fashion nothing wrong in my view with an plain loose ring jointed snaffle and it derivatives and they are cheaper too Not sure why a waterford is not dressage legal though it does..
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Post by sometime on Oct 18, 2012 22:14:10 GMT
Thanks for that I really should keep up with the new fangled things but my ponies are happy with their simplistic life and it costs me less too Dont own a martingale or a a wilkie bit and have no money for KK Sprenger and myler hype Only use i could see for that would be as an expensive and somewhat unusual christmas tree decoration
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Post by nia2311 on Oct 18, 2012 22:19:51 GMT
I cannot understand why there is a waterford wilkie. I'd never seen one before either, and looking at that, its a totally pointless piece of junk! I don't like wilkie snaffles at the best of times - especially NOT on LR/FR or other children's ponies. If it won't go in a simple, plain snaffle it aint a kids pony. But of course, that is another debate!
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Post by sometime on Oct 18, 2012 22:25:48 GMT
Just had a look on the bomber bit site as I am very old fashioned and I was very unpleasantly surprised at the instruments of torture that appear to condone on it. Think I will stick with my naive view if it aint broke use the simple things and if it is get schooling right first
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Post by honeypot on Oct 18, 2012 22:32:13 GMT
The curse of the pony/horse world is the friend who advises, usually who doesn't understand and will never pick up a book on how bits work. They chase the outline which bends the ponys neck like a position in yoga and seem to have no idea thake the other two thirds of the ponys horses body have a purpose. Perhaps like rossettes should be awarded for the pony with the least gagets/ metal in its mouth.
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Post by sometime on Oct 18, 2012 22:37:38 GMT
Yes but I suppose if people didnt seek the most modern and most advertised things and in some cases the most expensive then these companies wouldnt exist and wouldnt have a rapt audience for a lot of the rubbish they claim Horse owners appear to be a gullible lot with more money than sense as a marketing target audience
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Post by norwalk on Oct 18, 2012 22:45:46 GMT
Agreed, waterfords have a place and aren't as bad as they look, but not on a 4yo. and would anyone who would do that have educated enough hands for one anyway? There are far too many queries on here along the lines of "my horse does such and such, what bit should I use to cure it?" for my liking. Usually the answer is schooling. Mind you, I had never seen a double jointed bit until well grown up, in my younger days there were only single jointed snaffles. My first one was a revelation, and from then on always my first port of call. Me too! The first really inspiring bit I remember was the "Hollow mouth German Eggbutt" - was the dog's do-daa's!! Previous options had been either loose ring or eggbutt snaffles (some with a really deep twisted mouthpiece! but not in OUR tackroom!), in either nickel or stainless (if you were very posh!)... Loads of people had Kimblewicks of course, oh and pelhams with roundings, but the german eggbutt was the "new thing". And then the French Link revolutionised my view of bits!!!
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Oct 19, 2012 3:51:52 GMT
As for martingales - our now very distinguished SJ trainer recommended always using a running one for XC, not for any effect on the pony but to give the rider a neckstrap to grab if necessary, and to prevent the reins from going over the ponies head.
I can remember putting one on my old D mare for the first time for a PC XC event, and her reacting to the strap between her front legs by broncing with my daughter all the way up the lorry park, to the accompaniment of horrifed looks from all the other PC mothers and gales of laughter from daughter and I - she was in no danger of falling off which we both knew. Moral - another time get them used to it first at home!
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Oct 19, 2012 5:27:09 GMT
As for martingales - our now very distinguished SJ trainer recommended always using a running one for XC, not for any effect on the pony but to give the rider a neckstrap to grab if necessary, and to prevent the reins from going over the ponies head. We use one on our nursery pony for the above reason, and also aesthetically it cuts her front end up and as she is thick and short it did help her slightly from the point of view of workers!!
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