jakkibag
Full Member
Urwins Tom Boy
Posts: 201
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Post by jakkibag on Oct 20, 2012 21:36:51 GMT
If TSR didnt know about Scottish Horse Quals does this mean that they wont be holding a 'pony Q there' ;D ;D Im not seeing the point at the moment tbh, im yet to be convinced its not just another £20 ill have to hand out along with the others!!
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Post by the showing register on Oct 21, 2012 5:24:22 GMT
Hi - To help clear up a few points here goes !
Membership of TSR is entirely optional we are not holding HOYS Q at any show you can pay £20 for membership and enter any pony qualifier at any show. If a show wants to affilliate to TSR it is its own choice and is free of charge.
The Showing Register is a private company registered at companies house.With a low cost structure it is able to offer very competative rates for members,clinics, training etc. It has clearly stated aims which are to make showing affordable, fun and for everyone. Members will be able to put forward their views at any time by e mail, phone or any social media channels and we will respond. Once a year we will have a conference when they can speak their minds. We are absolutely committed to lowering the costs of showing and putting forward fresh and innovative ideas to help riders and owners. If we had a policy of ploughing on regardless of our members views we would soon fail. We put the ' no say' part on our web site to make it absolutely clear that membership does not give voting rights we want to be honest and not ambiguous with our members. Sorry about the web grammer mistakes will get someone to check it out. Wendy
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Post by gauntlet on Oct 21, 2012 6:14:39 GMT
With all the bureaucracy, infighting, power struggles and dictatorship within the present societies why would you object to not being part of running the organization. I would prefer that my hard earned money was not used to bolster some very supercilious ego inflated individuals!
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Post by Cefn farm Horses on Oct 21, 2012 9:16:30 GMT
Hi - To help clear up a few points here goes ! Membership of TSR is entirely optional we are not holding HOYS Q at any show you can pay £20 for membership and enter any pony qualifier at any show. If a show wants to affilliate to TSR it is its own choice and is free of charge. The Showing Register is a private company registered at companies house.With a low cost structure it is able to offer very competative rates for members,clinics, training etc. It has clearly stated aims which are to make showing affordable, fun and for everyone. Members will be able to put forward their views at any time by e mail, phone or any social media channels and we will respond. Once a year we will have a conference when they can speak their minds. We are absolutely committed to lowering the costs of showing and putting forward fresh and innovative ideas to help riders and owners. If we had a policy of ploughing on regardless of our members views we would soon fail. We put the ' no say' part on our web site to make it absolutely clear that membership does not give voting rights we want to be honest and not ambiguous with our members. Sorry about the web grammer mistakes will get someone to check it out. Wendy thank you wendy with those rates you are making showing affordable. the structure to me seems perfectly fine and with it being run as a commercial entity the company will have to listen to its customers and respond accordingly. if it didnt it would not survive. it amazes me when people mention that they have a say in the way a society runs when so few actually vote when given the chance. the vast majority of members just want more shows good championships and fair play at affordable rates in this economic climate. TSR appears to be offering just that. commercialism is a good thing
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penny
Junior Member
Posts: 176
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Post by penny on Oct 21, 2012 9:53:40 GMT
What I find puzzling is that nobody saw this "society" coming. Who is running it? I can understand what their aim is but, sorry, because there seemed to be no forewarning of its existence I'm a bit concerned about it all
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Post by bigmama on Oct 21, 2012 10:50:45 GMT
I heard a whisper about a new society involved with Hoys a couple of months ago
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Post by chloesmum on Oct 21, 2012 11:13:46 GMT
I agree Penny I wondered where it had suddenly all come from but perhaps with HOYS running under it's own rules anyway it will bring everything under one umbrella so to speak. I guess it is early days, perhaps all will become clear when qualifiers etc are announced for next year, I am all for saving money but also want to ensure consistency in rules and excellence and transparency in judging and I do wonder about the impact on the exisisting societies but then maybe their championships shows will become their showpiece and HOYS will stand alone.
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Post by coloured on Oct 21, 2012 14:17:22 GMT
Hi - To help clear up a few points here goes ! Membership of TSR is entirely optional we are not holding HOYS Q at any show you can pay £20 for membership and enter any pony qualifier at any show. If a show wants to affilliate to TSR it is its own choice and is free of charge. The Showing Register is a private company registered at companies house.With a low cost structure it is able to offer very competative rates for members,clinics, training etc. It has clearly stated aims which are to make showing affordable, fun and for everyone. Members will be able to put forward their views at any time by e mail, phone or any social media channels and we will respond. Once a year we will have a conference when they can speak their minds. We are absolutely committed to lowering the costs of showing and putting forward fresh and innovative ideas to help riders and owners. If we had a policy of ploughing on regardless of our members views we would soon fail. We put the ' no say' part on our web site to make it absolutely clear that membership does not give voting rights we want to be honest and not ambiguous with our members. Sorry about the web grammer mistakes will get someone to check it out. Wendy thank you wendy with those rates you are making showing affordable. the structure to me seems perfectly fine and with it being run as a commercial entity the company will have to listen to its customers and respond accordingly. if it didnt it would not survive. it amazes me when people mention that they have a say in the way a society runs when so few actually vote when given the chance. the vast majority of members just want more shows good championships and fair play at affordable rates in this economic climate. TSR appears to be offering just that. commercialism is a good thing Now that confuses me - you are currently running in the BSHA election - something that could NOT happen under the rules of The Showing Register
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Post by Cefn farm Horses on Oct 21, 2012 18:30:57 GMT
yes i am running for election. as is mr ingle who is associated with tsr.
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Post by thefuture on Oct 22, 2012 8:02:21 GMT
This will be interesting but I have a couple of questions pls.
You require JMB certs if competing as a TSR member in HOYS Classes. Does this mean that TSR are "joining" the "ownership" of JMB (as all the other societies do)
A judge that can judge, for example, Show Ponies only, can now judged M&M qualifiers too - and likewise and judge only on an M&M breed panel can now judge plaited WHP's ?
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Oct 22, 2012 8:41:10 GMT
Over my ridden M&M showing life of around 25 years I've seen the scene change hugely. When I started there were few classes that involved joining societies and qualifiers - if you wanted to go to a big county show you were free to enter enter, and were thrilled if you had a good result for its own sake. Now it's all about qualifying, so either you get your ticket or go home disappointed, and I've always felt it devalued the status of the county and other big shows, which used to be stand alone showing destinations. So at first glance this seems to me a good development, and I applaud the aims stated on their website. But I have two questions - one a detail in the wider scheme of things which involves the JMB certs - maybe I'm no longer up to date, but they used not to be required for M&M qualifiers, only if you qualified for the Final, contrary to what appears to be the case for TSR.
My second question is who owns the company?
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Post by the showing register on Oct 22, 2012 9:09:42 GMT
Good morning
To answer the questions as follows. The Showing Register uses the HOYS rules which require a current JMB certificate before entering a plaited pony HOYS qualifying class so when registering your pony you need to send a copy of the certificate. Mountain and Moorland Ponies only require one after qualifying. If you are registering with TSR and are not going to compete in HOYS qualifying classes we do not require a JMB certificate. However if you register without a certificate and then enter a HOYS qualifier the fact you have not sent in a copy will be picked up at that point.
A TSR plaited pony panel judge cannot judge HOYS M and M qualifying classes unless they hold a prior accreditation that currently allows them to judge these classes or they submit a CV and pass the TSR accreditation process. They may however if they wish go on our 'O' panel to judge M and M classes other than HOYS Q. Breed panel judges can apply for the HOYS M and M panel and be able to judge M and M LR/FR & WHP - if they wish to be considered for the HOYS M and M ridden panel for the open classes they will need to send in a CV for consideration.
To help prospective judges the CV should contain as much information as possible about prior experience particularly with regard to breed types etc. TSR is using the criteria for panels currently in use by HOYS - our appointments to extra panels and new judges process will be clear and transparent details of this will be available shortly.
David Ingle was one of the speakers for the TSR/HOYS MasterClass and is on our 'experts' page of the web site, he is pictured on our facebook page pulling out the winner of our HOYS competition wearing a very fetching hat ! he has no other connection with TSR.
Wendy
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Post by busybusy on Oct 22, 2012 11:14:04 GMT
I have had a look at the website, and read the above comments. I wonder what the other societies (BSPS, NPS and PUK) think about this? These societies have invested over many years in judges training and assessment days, young judges training and competitions and running at least two major championship shows each year. Whilst I appreciate that not everyone wishes to attend these, we do all benefit from the vast experience of the judges that have benefitted from the training and support from these societies. I am all in favour of keeping costs down, but we do need to support these organisations that actually make showing at a variety of levels possible in this country. Perhaps the answer is for these societies to review their costs (particularly the rather costly "transfer" cost in the case of BSPS?).
I do understand that some competitors like to compete at their county show and if these are HoYs qualifiers then this is not possible - in this case surely the membership rule can be relaxed and simply the highest placed REGISTERED rider/pony would pick up the qualification? After all, there are many shows where it is possible to enter on the day (so registrations cannot be verified). If an unregistered animal wins, the "ticket" simply already passes to the next valid combination.
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Post by the showing register on Oct 22, 2012 12:01:51 GMT
Good afternoon
Sarahp you are quite correct that an M and M pony does not have to have a height cert unless it qualifies for HOYS. We also agree with you about the county shows and what a great family day out they are and we hope to help showing families to get back on the county circuit. The owner of TSR is Mrs Gail Chapman who has been involved in showing as an exhibitor and judge for 45 years. Once TSR has become established and found its feet it will be consulting widely amongst its members,judges and other equine opinion makers as to the policies that it follows. It is not expected to be profit making but if it ends the year with a surplus funds will be ploughed back into keeping the members costs down.
Busybusy - TSR agrees with you that the established societies have put a lot of time and money into supporting their judges lists. TSR is organizing a probationary system that we hope will include an NVQ qualification but Judges that already are able to judge both HOYS and non HOYS classes are welcome to register with us if they so wish. We are running our own Championship show on 20th and 21st July 2013 at Arena UK where we will have the finals of the TSR/HOYS MasterClass selection and the TSR Rider Championships. I can only say that everyone has to start somewhere !
Wendy
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Post by thefuture on Oct 22, 2012 12:37:02 GMT
This will be interesting but I have a couple of questions pls. You require JMB certs if competing as a TSR member in HOYS Classes. Does this mean that TSR are "joining" the "ownership" of JMB (as all the other societies do) quote] TSR - Could you answer re the above please. You will presumably be honouring the JMB (owned by member societies) Height Certs for the time being. Does this mean that going forward, you will either become and owner society of JMB or will you be honouring/encouraging another system ie measuring on the day?
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Oct 22, 2012 12:38:04 GMT
Many thanks for your answers.
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Post by the showing register on Oct 22, 2012 12:51:25 GMT
Hi again
At the moment we are not a member of the JMB or The Showing Council. HOYS require JMB certificates and so we do as well. We have no plans to measure on the day or start up any other form of measuring. I will enquire about this some more and get back to you later in the week. If you just want to register and NOT do the HOYS Q you do NOT need a JMB cert or any other form of height certificate
Wendy
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Post by catkin on Oct 22, 2012 13:26:02 GMT
I too agree that showing has become much more focussed on 'qualifying' and I am not sure that's a good thing - though v easy to get sucked into!
On a wider point, I have been saying for some time that I believe all the societies need to really think about their reason for being and perhaps the new developments with TSR will be a good catalyst for this. I admit, I join what I join for qualifying purposes, or sometimes to register stock. I used to join extras for sentimental reasons, but can no longer justify the expense.
Some random points:
1. Surely NPS should concentrate on their main usp, running the Riding Pony studbook, rather than spread itself into M&M promotion when most of the breed societies now do this pretty well in their own right? Rather than the native breeds, it seems to me that our Riding Ponies are the ones that need to boost right now?
2. Why would you join a breed society unless to register stock? OK, to show 'support' but how many people will spend money on this notion?
3. BSPS used to be for plaited children's ponies, then they branched into M&Ms presumably because so many children were riding them? But in most instances with large breeds, its adults...
4. Ponies (UK) started off as a show and I have always thought them an excellent training society. Is there now too much cross over with all the other societies to sustain this group?
5. Is there a real 'danger' that HOYS will set up their own membership group we'll need to join if we want to qualify? Is this a bad thing? Well perhaps yes, if the membership revolves around one show a year with none of the other considerations such as training, welfare etc.
6. If other societies were cheaper, would there be a need for TSR's initiative?
7. I don't understand the comments regarding making showing accessible. You can enter any class you like (at your local agric show etc) but if you are not a member of the right society you won't qualify, thats all. So, you don't remove anyone else's ticket and you can compete where you want.
Food for thought!
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Post by CarolineNelson on Oct 22, 2012 13:39:48 GMT
Sticking head above parapit here, whilst I applaud any efforts to allow showing to remain affordable, I hope most sincerely that the newly conceived Company will honour not only the years worth of groundwork which has been done by the recognised Societies but will work with them and alongside them.
It would be preposterous to envisage the future without the support and the immense volume of experience which the "Established" Societies have.
No mention has been made so far (and yes, I have viewed the website) of the nine Native Breed Societies. One would hope that (as regards showing) they will remain under the 'umbrella' of the NPS, the custodian of the British Pony and the Mother Stud Book of the British Riding Pony.
Caroline Nelson. (Council member/past Vice and Chairperson, NPS, during the previous decade)
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Post by forester on Oct 22, 2012 13:40:59 GMT
so basically if i wasnt a member of NPS BSPS and PUK i only have to pay £20 to TSR to do the HOYS Q's, but entry fee includes a levi so then what?
Also, you say you required JMB Certs to join for HOYS Q does this incl M&M's as unless you Q the other societies dont require them, so therefore to get my pony microchipped and measured costing around £100 on the "possibilty i might Qualify?
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Post by the showing register on Oct 22, 2012 13:56:29 GMT
Good afternoon Forester
It is £20 to be a member of TSR (includes pony registration) which then allows you in the same way as the other societies to enter HOYS pony qualifying classes. You of course have to pay the entry fee for the show and they pass on the levy element to HOYS. I repeat that for Mountain and Moorland ponies in all sections of HOYS Q classes you DO NOT need a JMB height certificate only if you qualify.
Ponies and horses that wish to be registered to compete in non HOYS Q classes do not need a height certificate of any type.
Caroline - we agree with all your sentiments and feel the breed societies are doing a fantastic job
Catkin - TSR think that the British Riding Pony is coming very close to being on the ' at risk' register and hope to put in place some incentives to encourage the showing of plaited ponies - at the risk of putting our head above the wall to be shot at how about a Junior Rider Show pony and a show pony class which includes adult riders in the same way as M and M - suitably mounted of course. Perhaps heights should become less important as many good ponies are lost for being slightly overheight.
Please note that these are only thoughts and in no way policy !
Wendy
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Post by bigmama on Oct 22, 2012 14:04:39 GMT
forester ... TSR has already answered the question about height certs for m&m today @ 10.09 post ... quote "To answer the questions as follows. The Showing Register uses the HOYS rules which require a current JMB certificate before entering a plaited pony HOYS qualifying class ...... Mountain and Moorland Ponies only require one after qualifying"
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Post by tabbycat on Oct 22, 2012 14:44:10 GMT
Okay , I have long thought that the societies have been in danger of losing their way but money has been plentiful and the majority of competitors in the last ten years haven't cared much about whether or not they are getting value for money . The current economic situation for the majority of us has meant that we have had to take a long hard look at where we spend our money .
As a long time fan of the riding pony I have to say that the original concept has been lost I wonder have many are truly childrens riding ponies !!! it was supposed to be" a pony suitable for children to ride " not a one trick pony as so many are today and yes they should be able to jump , compete in a variety of disciplines and not wrapped up in cottonwool allowed out to do one class at a show and then spend the rest of the day on the lorry . The BSPS and the NPS need to address this if the classes are not to die completely, the rise in popularity of the MM's is because they offer value for money .
Perhaps a new society will galvanise the other societies into action because I think if they don't address the concerns of the majority of their members they will not survive . The majority will not qualify for hoys and surprise ,surprise not everyone wants to , people do want to be able to compete in strong classes , go to chps , and be rewarded for the hard work and effort they put into their ponies but that doesn't have to mean a hoys ticket .
I have to say that I DO THINK HOYS will start their own membership it will only be a matter of time . So come on all you other societies wake up and smell the coffee before its too late .
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Oct 22, 2012 16:21:45 GMT
When I started, broadly speaking NPS were for plaiteds, most importantly being their registration body and running the stud book, Ponies of Britain were supporting natives and doing education, stud exams etc. and BSPS were for showing show ponies - no WH/SH ponies then. The native breed societies have always been their individual registration bodies and run breed shows, but not general ones. Then the PoB split into showing and welfare arms and NPS, BSPS and P(UK) (ex-PoB for anyone too young to have heard of it!) all run shows for both plaiteds and natives. I'm not really sure I understand your "umbrella" remark Caroline. Now with Olympia, HOYS and RIHS as well as all the societies' Championship shows, maybe it's time for a sort out. I'm pretty much retired from showing except for a few in hand As, so I shall sit back and watch with interest! I do acknowledge of course the huge contribution made over the years by all the societies mentioned above.
Catkin - my point about county shows is not so much about locals being able to enter, but the status of the classes having been reduced to just another qualifier instead of something special, and the change in entrants, with those chasing tickets (and judges) all over the country making the prospect daunting to those who do not aspire on whatever grounds to get to Olympia/HOYS.
tabbycat - as for RPs - not my thing, but temperament permitting many are talented jumping and dressage ponies - or could be if asked! Another point in favour of the native is that height for height they can carry more weight, so will be more suitable for today's bigger children or parent/child shares than a RP.
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Post by arrogorn on Oct 22, 2012 17:37:23 GMT
TSR can I ask, do you have any connections to Grandstand Media? Are they putting any funding your way?
Who has funded the setting up of TSR? and who is responsible for the 'books' as normally the board would sign up to taking all responsiblity sor such society.
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Post by hollycane on Oct 22, 2012 17:43:50 GMT
As a a bona fide and assessed judge and one already booked by shows to judge their HOYS qualifiers do I have to now also be a TSR judge/member? If so it would have been nice to be asked/informed.
Do I have to be a TSR member/judge? If so that's more money out of my pocket for the privilege which is as yet, undefined.
Who exactly will analysing prospective judges, their CVs and real experience?
I'm not knocking this new initiative but I agree with previous posts in that it is not HOYS where this kind of focus should be aimed but at the county shows/local shows that are dying a death. They are the events at which these qualifiers are supposed to be held for the dubious privilege of qualifying for HOYS but they are struggling even to survive. Secondly the lack of apparent communication/consultation between the societies and their paying members is breathtakingly short sighted and somewhat arrogant in the extreme. As a ltd company, where's the company objective backed up by a business plan discussed and agreed by ALL of the stakeholders?
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Post by catkin on Oct 22, 2012 17:48:43 GMT
Catkin - my point about county shows is not so much about locals being able to enter, but the status of the classes having been reduced to just another qualifier instead of something special, and the change in entrants, with those chasing tickets (and judges) all over the country making the prospect daunting to those who do not aspire on whatever grounds to get to Olympia/HOYS. Good point SarahP. I was really responding to a point above about having a pony good enough, but not wanting to pay to join a society and thinking they couldn't therefore, enter the class. The other point, of course, is that entry fees are much more expensive when the class has qualfying status, with the addition of the levy. And yes, my riding ponies are treated in the same way as our native ponies with regards their riding. They hack, they jump, they go to Pony Club. After all, they have been designed to be ridden in their very breeding, or one would hope anyway! Very interested to see how this will all pan out Read more: horsegossip.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=144339&page=2#ixzz2A3EHSNSD
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Post by the showing register on Oct 22, 2012 18:20:44 GMT
Good evening
Arrogorn to start with - Grandstand Media will be handling the entries for our 2 shows in 2013(information that is available on our web site) that means that we have a commercial arrangement to use their software which saves us having the expense of buying our own so keeping costs down. They are not providing finance in any way at all TSR has seed funding from a private source. The accounts will be posted at Companies House in the normal way.
Hollycane - You can continue just as you are there is no need to be registered on the TSR judges panel but if you do wish to it is free as is a non showing member. Potential judges who are not already accredited or wish to extend there accreditation will be informed by the begining of December. The full accreditation panel will be made public at that time.
As a private Ltd Company we do not have to publish our business plan but we are more than willing to discuss any points that members or potential members would like clarified.
We do agree about the County Shows there is nothing like the thrill of showing on the bigger stage we hope the low cost membership will let more people enter and enjoy the day qualifier or not. Years ago qualifying for Peterborough was the be all and end all but times change and ways of looking at things have to change as well.
Wendy
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Post by arrogorn on Oct 22, 2012 19:15:05 GMT
Many thanks for your reply.
Just a bit suspicious (might not be right word) that TSR was a sister company of GSM and this is GSM way of taking the monopoly away from the societies and run the HOYS Quals under one bracket.
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Post by the showing register on Oct 22, 2012 19:22:32 GMT
No, not at all TSR is totally independent
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