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Post by emerald12 on Oct 20, 2013 16:22:44 GMT
Hi there, I am desperately seeking some advice. I have a horse on loan - the period of loan was loosely agreed on Facebook as 12 months we have no written contract as such. I have had the horse for 4 months and wish to return it - she has developed a condition called pastern vasculitis and I have paid £400 in vets bills over the last 2 weeks having this condition treated, I have informed the owner of the horse and explained that I will and have already paid for the treatment on this occasion but as this is a condition that may arise again and again I cannot continue to care for the horse, I simply do not have the money. I can not ride the horse whilst suffering with this condition and she can't go out in daylight hours as the condition is photo aggravated. The owner is saying we have a contract on our conversation on Facebook and she's not in a position to have her back - the fact is that I'm stuck with a horse I can no longer afford and the animal is hers!!! I need to know where I stand legally I'm guessing a solicitors letter is te best plan but I want to know where we stand legally in terms of handing the horse over to an equine welfare organisation as her welfare is my main concern and I worry if this condition worsens I simply will not be able to treat her. Please help!
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Post by Guestless on Oct 20, 2013 21:35:41 GMT
Difficult situation as I can empathise with both sides. At the end of the day, if your only agreement is on Facebook and you didn't discuss an early termination option, then I would probably side with the owner, unless you can show that the condition existed prior to your loan commencing.
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Post by gemstone on Oct 20, 2013 22:05:31 GMT
I think that if the horse is not yours then the owner must take it back if she wants to still own it. I should send her a solicitors letter saying you are unable to keep the horse, and she must take it back within 14 days???
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 22:13:43 GMT
Its not fit for purpose so she hasn't a leg to stand on - tell her to collect it within 7 days.
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Post by lazypony on Oct 21, 2013 9:08:56 GMT
Depends what was put in writing only problem is no one signed a contract. If you have your written conversations print them off and take to solicitor and see where you stand, it kinda depends on what was agreed really. Hope you get things sorted.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Oct 21, 2013 9:16:10 GMT
Its not fit for purpose so she hasn't a leg to stand on - tell her to collect it within 7 days. Fit for purpose only stands under sale of goods act, not under contractual law. Loans, leases and agreements come under contractual! There is a lady who advertises in the back of the Horse & Hound www.equinelawuk.co.uk who may be able to advise
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sarahp
Happy to help
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Post by sarahp on Oct 21, 2013 10:37:02 GMT
Must admit that with the welfare of my ponies at heart I'm always prepared to take them back at any time if the loanee can't keep them for whatever reason. I do realise not everyone is in a position to do so though.
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Post by gillwales on Oct 21, 2013 12:17:19 GMT
The owner is in my opinion ultimately responsible for the horse. However this high-lights a problem and goes to show just how important it is to have a clear contract when loaning or leasing a horse, even between friends. everyone knows where they stand then and the horse is protected. I would agree though with Jane that it sounds like the horse is not fit for purpose.
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Post by Guestless on Oct 21, 2013 13:44:27 GMT
Must admit that with the welfare of my ponies at heart I'm always prepared to take them back at any time if the loanee can't keep them for whatever reason. I do realise not everyone is in a position to do so though. That would likely be my personal reaction too but, as you say, there could be circumstances that caused the owner to put the pony on loan for a year in the first place and therefore if the agreement was for a year then it could be argued the person has the care of the pony for the complete year regardless of what happens. I don't understand why people are happy to be on either side of a loan without a formal agreement - especially nowadays with our particularly litigious society!
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Post by kateanne0 on Oct 21, 2013 14:24:03 GMT
Its not fit for purpose so she hasn't a leg to stand on - tell her to collect it within 7 days. I believe the horse is not fit for purpose (to ride, look after and enjoy) if it had a pre existing condition that the owner didn't declare to the loanee. If there is no pre existing condition, then the horse has developed the condition whilst in the loanee's care and they are therefore responsible for the horse and it's treatment. Best way forward, ask the owner to confirm that there is no pre existing condition by allowing you to talk to their vet on that particular horses notes and treatments. If the owner won't allow you to talk to their vet, then I would smell a rat! Most responsible horse owners would agree to your request unless there is something to hide. If you find that you cannot talk to the owner without becoming emotional, have you a friend that can mediate on your behalf? At the end of the day, the owner and the loaner have to come to an understanding of the situation and both act responsibly putting the horse's welfare FIRST. Also, since the condition looks very much like a mud rash, which can be kept under control with a good routine, maybe that is all you need, a good routine, if the condition is now clear? The condition can also look like a mite problem would, there is an injection that might help, talk to your vet. It's for mite conditions in cattle, but works very well with horses, it may be worth a try. Sometimes one condition can be mistaken for another, this happened with my pony and the condition was cured by giving her the cattle injection. There are also leg wrap products that you can buy to cover the pasterns so that the horse could be turned out during the day. Free advice and legal help is available if you are a BHS Gold Member. H&H also run an advert with a solicitor offering free initial advice, worth contacting them. Good luck to you and the horse.
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Post by orangetails on Oct 23, 2013 13:18:17 GMT
Must admit that with the welfare of my ponies at heart I'm always prepared to take them back at any time if the loanee can't keep them for whatever reason. I do realise not everyone is in a position to do so though. I don't believe anyone should loan unless they ARE in a position to do so, tbh. Although if it were just a case of the loaner no longer wanting the horse, as the owner I would expect/insist upon a proper notice period so that I could make arrangements. My loan contract for my child's pony states a month's notice must be given if she is to be returned - however I verbally made it clear to the loanee that if she needs to come back, she needs to come back, I won't hold them to any notice period especially if there is a problem (her first loan home returned her for financial reasons, and we collected her as soon as we could) I made arrangements with my YO that even if there isn't officially space for her where I am then he will squeeze her in short term until I can make new arrangements, and I still pay a token amount towards her stable (which was built for her and too small to be let out as a full-price livery ) If you don't want the responsibility of a loaned horse 'boomeranging' back, then in my VERY humble opinion, you should sell it rather than loan it... I don't really know where you stand in this situation, I do think it would be best if you seek proper legal advice... You don't officially have a contract (do you still have the FB communications?) on the flip side neither does the owner. I don't know anything about the condition, but if it is similar to mud fever the owner could argue it's mis-management and up to you to sort out (fwiw I have battled horrendous mud fever with my arab over the years and know it isn't always that simple!!) As an owner with a loaned-out pony, I would take the horse back myself - but I can also see the owner's pov. I would be pretty annoyed if my loaner's returned the pony unexpectedly, particularly if it were as the result of an issue that arose whilst in the loaner's care. I certainly don't think you would have any rights at all to hand her over to a welfare organisation - that could be construed as theft surely? If absolutely nothing else, you have an 'agreement' with the owner to return the horse in 12 months, you can't fulfil that obligation if you've given it away (this is even assuming any charities would take her anyway, most are full to bursting)
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Oct 24, 2013 7:37:15 GMT
To be fair to the loanee - this can be an extremely serious condition, I nearly lost two ponies with it some years ago. But usually found in the summer when there is stronger sunshine and after exposure to some photosensitising agent (most likely buttercups here).
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Post by fanfarefan on Oct 24, 2013 17:14:50 GMT
We had one with this condition many years ago completely out of the blue ,nobodies fault in the first instance and very difficult to deal with so i can see that the OP is in a diffi ult position as is the owner and really a situation that will have to be thrashed out between the pair of them as no legally binding agreement was made ,,,,,,,,let that be a lesson to ALL of us.
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Post by Carrots&Mints on Oct 25, 2013 8:22:24 GMT
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Post by meljolly on Oct 25, 2013 8:44:04 GMT
Both threads were created the same day, maybe she posted on both sites to gain the most feedback :-)
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Post by Carrots&Mints on Oct 25, 2013 9:19:03 GMT
Oh yes didnt see that! Lol
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Post by Karen, garrettponies on Oct 25, 2013 9:19:36 GMT
There is a 25 year old ex-racer that lives at my place. He has baffled his owner as he was showing signs of mud fever but we (until this last week) had no mud, ground was bone dry. His legs were swollen if he went out but fine if he stayed in. Just on his white socked legs or where there is pinker skin. Turns out it is a similar condition. He has not had mud fever or any leg problems for over 15 years and this condition came out of the blue. What I am saying is it need not be a pre-existing condition.
I can see both sides. When I have loaned a pony, I have a written contract, loan owner is generally responsible for bills incurred while in their care, while you are loaning you are effectively loaning the animal for the length of time specified through thick and thin. I also have a notice period. From the owners point of view they loaned the horse for a reason, lack of time, no job for the horse/pony, finances etc etc. You need to try and mediate with the owner to get the best possible outcome for the horse.In an ideal world everything would be hunky-dory but sometimes things aren't black and white.
ETA I have a pony out on loan and if anything went wrong there I would have her back as soon as possible but my circumstances mean I can.
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