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Post by honeypot on Jun 26, 2014 23:31:04 GMT
I don't think most people realise that a wilkie is a curb bit as it works on poll pressure, they look at the jointed mouth piece and think its a snaffle, the same goes for a 3 ringed 'gag', its just a b***dy big lever in the hands of a child. The pony then becomes over bent, on its forehand and to get away it runs through the shoulder so they end up with even less control and the pony bent like a banana. My daughter was never best rider but she broke a 16hand maxi cob with a loose ring thick mouth snaffle, she was 14 and weighed wet about 8 stone. If a horse is taught weight aids and understands clearly what is wanted you and you not blow its brains when young it learns to stop with the seat aids, a whoa and slight resistance from the reins.
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Post by Philippa on Jun 27, 2014 7:48:01 GMT
I'd love peter wilkinson to be able to come on and explain to everyone why he designed the Wilkie 'snaffle' to everyone. I use a Wilkie on my LR pony and have explained why in the other topic on here on the same subject.
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Post by tct2912 on Jun 27, 2014 8:22:13 GMT
I certainly don't agree with a Wilkie has a bradoon, but have seen so many ponies with them this season especially in the show hunter sections. Are they needed?? or are they the new fashion statement.
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Post by roxy93 on Jun 27, 2014 8:28:31 GMT
I'd love peter wilkinson to be able to come on and explain to everyone why he designed the Wilkie 'snaffle' to everyone. I use a Wilkie on my LR pony and have explained why in the other topic on here on the same subject. I'm off to see him this weekend knowing peter he will just laugh, Wilkies are available to buy in the English ' Snaffle' section on fylde, it isn't in the gag section or the imported, if it was a gag then I am pretty sure peter would have it in the correct area to purchase....
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Post by 5874julie on Jun 27, 2014 8:50:08 GMT
i too instinctively don't like single jointed mouthpieces but had a little pony for my daughter to come off the lead rein when she was six. As all 6 year olds have fairly awful hands by definition i took him out of the single jointed snaffle he came in and started with a rippled happy mouth (as the mildest bit i could think of), then progressed onto a french link snaffle, thinking i was doing him a favour. but one day i put the single joint back in and he instantly seemed much happier in it. so you do have to listen to the pony, a lot depends on the conformation of the mouth.
the swpa are very thorough in publishing a list of permitted novice bits, which is very helpful. i do think to be fair to both judges and competitors the rules have to be very clear and i would absolutely support attempts to reduce overbitting. am also not keen on the ubiquitous flash noseband and martingale in the worker ring!
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Post by Philippa on Jun 27, 2014 9:34:19 GMT
I'd love peter wilkinson to be able to come on and explain to everyone why he designed the Wilkie 'snaffle' to everyone. I use a Wilkie on my LR pony and have explained why in the other topic on here on the same subject. I'm off to see him this weekend knowing peter he will just laugh, Wilkies are available to buy in the English ' Snaffle' section on fylde, it isn't in the gag section or the imported, if it was a gag then I am pretty sure peter would have it in the correct area to purchase.... Knowing peter you're right. He will
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Post by ponymum on Jun 27, 2014 9:48:15 GMT
Its all very well commenting on how nicely a pony goes in a snaffle , BUT bsps frown upon ponies being shown in a snaffle in the open classes! Until they actually give the members the go ahead to show open ponies in snaffles not many will do so as its too expensive to enter a Hoys to be put dowm because you arent going in a pelham or a double... Our pony goes lovely in a snaffle , but we have struggled to get her going happily in a pelham and did use a tomthumb , we have now progressed to a pelham but in all honesty she still goes best in a snaffle ....we could do with someone from BSPS to comment on this issue....ANYONE???
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Post by janetbushell on Jun 27, 2014 12:21:15 GMT
Can only speak for myself personally but I have NEVER had a problem with an animal in a snaffle & certainly do not believe it is "frowned on" by the BSPS
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Jun 27, 2014 16:17:47 GMT
Re martingales - our old jumping trainer used to recommend always using a martingale for XC, not for any "riding" purpose but to give the rider something to grab if necessary and to stop the reins going over the horse's head.
I can remember the first time daughter did this on my old D mare, who'd never had one on before. She didn't like having something coming up between her legs and bronced her way all through the car park. Daughter and I laughed our socks off, knowing that no way was she going to fall off, but we got some VERY disapproving looks from other PC mothers!
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Post by dizzydora on Jun 27, 2014 17:12:04 GMT
I see the champion cob at the hickstead derby had a wilkie as the bradoon part to its double.....
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Post by nici on Jun 27, 2014 22:14:39 GMT
Learned in the 50s, jumping lessons with no reins or stirrups, the former crossed across the chest and the latter across the withers! Daughter's instructor in the early 80s made them work (in an enclosed school) with no reins, working the pony with seat and leg aids only. Cerys thinks it's fun to ride in the field with no reins or stirrups - flatwork and jumping. Crazy kid, it's a good job her pony is so good!
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Post by titch on Jun 27, 2014 23:12:09 GMT
I see the champion cob at the hickstead derby had a wilkie as the bradoon part to its double..... Loads do this combination now. The hoys m&m champion did as recall.
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fernwhitecharity
Full Member
www.spanglefish.com/thefernwhitecharityshow
Posts: 229
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Post by fernwhitecharity on Jun 29, 2014 19:57:41 GMT
I see the champion cob at the hickstead derby had a wilkie as the bradoon part to its double..... Cob classes aren't ran under BSPS rules.
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Post by dizzydora on Jun 29, 2014 20:20:48 GMT
I see the champion cob at the hickstead derby had a wilkie as the bradoon part to its double..... Cob classes aren't ran under BSPS rules. Really polly...I'd never have guessed!!! Don't know if it was the give away in the name BRITISH SHOW PONY SOCIETY or the fact I wasn't referring to the ruling made by bsps and simply referring to people disliking wilkie's being used as bradoons. ..
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Post by flo1 on Jul 1, 2014 11:12:44 GMT
I feel that BD rules regarding bits should also apply to showing. I can't agree with this at all! My (now retired) gelding has a very thick fleshy tongue and resents any pressure on it at all. The only bit that he went well in was a Sprenger Correction bit...loose ring snaffle with a mouthpiece that has a wide port. His way of going in this bit was so relaxed that no one could fail to see how much it suited him, yet under BD rules he couldn't compete in it...so he didn't do BD, which was shame as he loved his dressage. I find it ridiculous that BD won't allow a horse to compete in a bit that it goes well in but would have happily allowed me to ride him in a (for example) single jointed bit that would have cause him pain. Just how is that right or fair?
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Post by waspblue on Jul 1, 2014 20:12:25 GMT
I feel that BD rules regarding bits should also apply to showing. I can't agree with this at all! My (now retired) gelding has a very thick fleshy tongue and resents any pressure on it at all. The only bit that he went well in was a Sprenger Correction bit...loose ring snaffle with a mouthpiece that has a wide port. His way of going in this bit was so relaxed that no one could fail to see how much it suited him, yet under BD rules he couldn't compete in it...so he didn't do BD, which was shame as he loved his dressage. I find it ridiculous that BD won't allow a horse to compete in a bit that it goes well in but would have happily allowed me to ride him in a (for example) single jointed bit that would have cause him pain. Just how is that right or fair? I understand exactly what you are saying and I too agree that a horses comfort matters more than anything. The only thing I would like to say, is that having tried all sorts of "kinder" double jointed mouthpieces, I have had to bite the bullet and accept that my horse - strange though it may seem - much prefers the old fashioned single jointed Eggbutt snaffle that he came with and that he goes beautifully in. This therefore goes to show that there is a bit for every horse. When I said I would like to see bits conforming to BD rules I was merely referring to the relevant authorities having similar rules and controlling fairly what bits can and cannot be classed as acceptable, more in the case of seeing horses and ponies in more and more severe bits which are being used as a short cut to an 'outline' instead of better schooling to a more correct way of going. I also think that BD should look again at their bitting lists, as there are certainly lots more advances in bitting these days and there are certainly bits that I feel should be acceptable in the dressage arena, which are banned. The one you used is one such bit, as it doesn't I don't feel give you any particular advantage, other than that your horse is comfortable and I cannot see how that can be a bad thing. I will however hold my hand up and say that I dislike seeing driving bits, such as Swales , being used on ridden animals and I don't like seeing a Wilkie used as part of a double bridle either, in both cases it is the actions of these bits I dislike, but this is purely a personal thing nothing else. There are I agree reasons for and against all parts of this debate and it will rage on for a long time no doubt, until something happens to change things one way or another, which we can only hope will be in the best interests of the equines we all love.
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Post by kateanne0 on Jul 15, 2014 14:17:04 GMT
There most definitely needs to be a banned list. This is too wishy washy a statement. Personally I don't see what is wrong with a small size Wilkie bit but am horrified at 3 ring tom thumbs and Swales being used. This is too open to misinterpretation of guide lines. pelhams have 3 rings as well....Tom thumbs have no curb chain...a short neat angled shank unlike some pelhams with long straight shanks and a tight curb..... Listed below BSPS Rules On Bridles/Bits. I can't find anything else regarding bits: Had to type some of this in by hand as it wouldn't copy and paste correctly. Apologies if I missed anything! BRIDLES54. Leading Rein, Lead Rein Hunter Type, First Ridden, Novice Show Ponies, Tiny Tots Lead Rein, First Ridden, Tiny Tots SHP, First Pony SHT, Novice Show Hunter Ponies, Novice Intermediate show riding, novice intermediate show hunters and Heritage novice ridded (flat classes)and lead rein must be shown in a suitable snaffle bridles. If a special prize is awarded in an Open Show pony class for Novice ponies, those eligible must be shown in a suitable snaffle bridle. Judges will take into consideration the severity of the bit. 55. Bit-less bridles and Running Gags are not permitted.56. Any suitable bridles may be worn in Working Hunter Pony classes and Heritage Working Hunter Pony and Heritage First Ridden classes, except those mentioned in Rule 55. 57. Martingales and any nosebands are permitted, but Judges must pay particular attention to their effectiveness. Even the comments in the rules are wishy-washy! And, judges can use their own initiative to decide whether the bit is suitable or not. Since the judge has no way of knowing why the pony is in a certain bit, they then cannot really decide whether the bit is suitable for that pony or not?! It is evident from this thread and another one referring to Wilkie's in the Great Yorkshire Show Lead Rein and First Ridden classes that some form of written/pictorial guideline MUST be used to illustrate 'suitable' bridles/bits. No where is it stated that wilkie's cannot be used as a bradoon bit or used as a snaffle. A Wilkie, to me, is the same as a hanging Cheek bit but with the ability to give a bit more rein pressure if necessary. In good hands a Wilkie is as good as any snaffle bit. The issues DO lie in effective schooling and training of rider and pony. Obviously, many lead rein and first ridden ponies are ridden-in by adults prior to the class, sometimes for a great length of time! Should this then, be deemed as an unsuitable pony for the purpose of a lead rein or first ridden pony? There are many subjective issues regarding bitting and leniency or penalty, left to judges discretion. Instead of issuing a statement that leaves everyone unclear on which bits the Society is talking about, lets have a clear naming of the bits, clear, written, rule book instructions to judges on what not to accept and a level of understanding will then be had by the competitor (VERY IMPORTANT)as, of course, it is the competitor paying the fees for the show entries!! It is unfair to competitors to let each individual judge decide for themselves which bits they accept as suitable or not, this is an un-level playing field. However, what is very clear is that, ANY SNAFFLE BIT THAT APPEARS IN THE SHOW RING WITH A CURB CHAIN ATTACHED TO IT SHOULD BE AN IMMEDIATE DISQUALIFICATION FROM THE CLASS.
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