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Post by Newlandwelshies on Jul 10, 2014 21:44:47 GMT
Saddened to see 10 out of 13 first ridden ponies forward today at great yorkshire show in the m&m were ridden in wilkies.
Is this the way forward, thought this was being looked at? Nice to see a little shetland one of the only three brought right from bottom of the line into second in a perfect outline and no aid in sight.
It would be great to see more judges commend those without such aids, surely this would encourage better schooling and riding?
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Post by chalky284 on Jul 10, 2014 21:51:01 GMT
They were very popular in the lead rein class I watched too!
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Post by Philippa on Jul 11, 2014 5:57:35 GMT
Well I for one noticed this too. As soon as the BSPS had released their last statement I made the decision to take my pony out of the Wilkie as we had a HOYS qualifier as our next show. There were also lots still in wilkies in that class too I'm a bit miffed as our pony goes beautifully in a Wilkie as Maisie has just the tiniest chance of keeping her in a nice shape. She doesn't flail her arms or sock the pony in the gob and isn't strong enough to 'fix' her head. So what's the outcome? ? Everyone ignore the bsps & carry on regardless? I think it's about time we knew one way or another if these bits are allowed or not. If not fine but if they are then judges should not be penalising and competitors shouldn't be left wondering if the judge might not like the bit.
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Post by Newlandwelshies on Jul 11, 2014 6:08:45 GMT
completely agree phillipa, it needs sorting one way or the other. my daughter who is 9 has come away from the wilkie and learning to work her pony in a natural outline and must say i now much prefer it, but would like to see her rewarded for this in the ring. bsps need to take a proper stance on this with their judges. also do get it is very hard for a little 3 year old and commend you for taking your little one out of one. again in a lead rein that should be noticed and placed accordingly. producers are still using them though and unlikely a judge will put them down because of it i fear. any judges on here would like to comment their views and what they would do in light of the new regs.
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Post by bubbles1822 on Jul 11, 2014 7:16:15 GMT
Are the hoys qualifiers not run under NPS rules though?
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Post by Philippa on Jul 11, 2014 7:29:34 GMT
Regardless of whose rules they are run under there seems to be a stigma about wilkies at the moment so surely it's better we look at an all round alternative than swap & change bits depending on the societies? ? At ncpa staffs we did the HOYS & then the bsps tiny tots. This would have meant changing bits anyway
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jul 11, 2014 8:56:45 GMT
I suppose I'm being naive but I'd hope that the bit regulations by the societies would be to encourage competitors to use bits suitable for pony and child as routine, not chop and change for different classes.
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Post by ruddles on Jul 11, 2014 9:37:22 GMT
Am I being naïve here - why do you need a wilkie in a lead rein class? I thought a lr pony should be safe enough to carry their little jockey and look after them. I don't know a lot about wilkies but to me they look to exert curb/poll pressure. My lr jockey rides with no contact - pony has been correctly broken and schooled and carries himself in a natural outline following the body language of the leader. No artificial aids have ever been used on my ponies and training is carried out at each individual pace - no one is hurried or forced. What I have noticed in lr classes though, is the handler with the lead rein in the left hand and the right hand yanking on the bit rein as the pony is running off - not my idea of a lr pony. This is my first year doing lr and am finding it difficult to follow judging as these ponies taking hold seem to get higher ride marks than ponies going sweetly and steadily. Perhaps the use of stronger bits being used in fr classes are being used as a safety net in case pony takes off? I do hope the bsps will publish a list of suitable bits to back up their statement (won't hold my breath as they seem to be a law unto themselves!).
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sarah1
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Post by sarah1 on Jul 11, 2014 9:55:45 GMT
It's such a shame to see such a bit used so frequently on lead rein/ First Ridden ponies. I do remember doing these classes (a long time ago!!) and not a wilkie in sight.
To me (again maybe nieve) a true lead rein/ first Ridden pony should not need such a bit - too much emphasis is put on the ponies outline when in reality the bare bones of the class is about a pony that can look after a small jockey be it on the lead rein or their first years off it.
I do think rules must be made much more black and white - it would help us all!
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janet
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Post by janet on Jul 11, 2014 10:33:23 GMT
people want quick results in my opinion and and want their 4 yr old LR pony to go to HOYS, time should be spent on training pony and rider to go correctly in a snaffle , ponies should have several years in the show ring instead they are often ruined from the start, judges need to mark down if ponies are in severe bits if they are LR or FR in my opinion, I will be going back into LR in a few years with my grandchild and my pony will be in a snaffle otherwise if its too strong then I haven't got the right pony for the job that it is needed for
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sarah1
Junior Member
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Post by sarah1 on Jul 11, 2014 10:38:27 GMT
Couldn't agree more with the above
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Post by chalky284 on Jul 11, 2014 13:44:57 GMT
I don't have any children yet, and I have no experience of lead rein or fr classes. I watched the lead rein at GYS yesterday simply as I got the chance to watch a class as my OH was tired and wanted to sit down! So it was educational for me and I saw a large difference in the children some were obviously in their last year of lr and some in their first. I was surprised to see so many in wilkies and I have to say some of the children didn't look as though they were enjoying it one bit. The steward really was marvellous with them, tried to jolly them up before their go round. A few ponies were being restrained by their handlers, which I thought defeated the point of the class. But I was interested to see an obstacle for the individual show. I can only agree with some of the above comments, but it's a trend seen with everything these days and the quick fix solution panders to the 'got to have it now' attitude of today's society. The use of the wilkies, the Swales and many other bits and gadgets provide the brakes, the 'outline' that is required to win classes. Unfortunately the judges can be in an awkward position, whereby so many ponies are shown in these bits that of course the winner will probably be in one, so those that want to win will copy and hence the trend! Those that use them will always defend their actions! I will never forget my first year back in the show ring as an adult, I was intrigued by the bit in the pony next to me in the line up. So I duly asked the rider what it was and why it was used, I was told it was a bit specially made for her pony as it's strong and gets it in a better outline. Turns out it was a Swales, but as a novice show-er back then I did wonder if it was worth using!
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jul 12, 2014 7:25:14 GMT
When my daughter was small wilkies hadn't been invented, and ponies for small children went in snaffles, with the child learning to get a correct outline in the natural course of their riding experience when they had the acquired the seat and back aids required. In my daughter's lessons they had to ride with no reins at all for periods, having to learn to do stop, go and turns without them. Of course something stronger was used occasionally for stressful situations when the pony might get strong and more braking power might have been needed for safety's sake, but not routinely.
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Post by brindlerainbow on Jul 12, 2014 7:56:47 GMT
Back in the good old days - the 70's and 80's, LR,FR and novice ponies were always shown in snaffles there was no other option available!! Ponies were schooled correctly and fed correctly. I think maybe some of the problem these days is the wide range of feeds etc available ponies are being feed unsuitable feed so they are bursting out of their skins, the little jockies can't hold them so producers/handlers stick a wilkie in their mouths to slow them down. Feed them correctly, turn them out all day every day, school them properly in a snaffle and chuck the wilkie in the dustbin
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Post by cayo on Jul 13, 2014 9:39:15 GMT
I have no issue with wilkies at all and have no problem with kids using them i can not see what the problem is with lr fr or any other type for that matter,,i am far more offended by seeing large riders working in these small ponies or seeing them strapped down worked into ground prior to the class and no doubt in training at home ,you get the picture we have all seen it.If ponies go well and look happy whats the fuss about i would be far more concerned to see a pony in any type of bit which it looked unhappy in .Wilkies are not magic they dont turn a badley schooled pony into a school master you still need to put the work in ,over long shank pelhems and doubles with very tight curb far worse,and the now more common sight of the three ring gag type bits being used ,saw a sec a put up in hoys class in one last week .Until the society's say not to use them and judges 100% unhold the rule it wont change and why should it if rues not being broken .
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jul 13, 2014 10:00:06 GMT
I think brindlerainbow has a point about feeding and management above. I do wonder sometimes if it's all about children learning to ride or just wanting ponies to get their various tickets?
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Post by jimjim on Jul 13, 2014 10:07:55 GMT
Why are you all so fussed about wilkies? What's the problem?
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Post by viking on Jul 13, 2014 10:53:16 GMT
I think brindlerainbow has a point about feeding and management above. I do wonder sometimes if it's all about children learning to ride or just wanting ponies to get their various tickets? Or maybe parents wanting their children to get their various tickets ?
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Post by chalky284 on Jul 13, 2014 11:57:37 GMT
Why are you all so fussed about wilkies? What's the problem? It's not about being all fussed about wilkies, it's an observation that they are now so common and a discussion on why that is!
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janet
Full Member
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Post by janet on Jul 13, 2014 13:03:18 GMT
Its not taking your time with the ponies that bothers me, putting a pony in a HOYS qual before it has had at least one novice year, just because you can doesn't make sense to me as the poor pony will be worn out before its in double figures,
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Post by kirstyk on Jul 14, 2014 19:41:23 GMT
Well I for one noticed this too. As soon as the BSPS had released their last statement I made the decision to take my pony out of the Wilkie as we had a HOYS qualifier as our next show. There were also lots still in wilkies in that class too I'm a bit miffed as our pony goes beautifully in a Wilkie as Maisie has just the tiniest chance of keeping her in a nice shape. She doesn't flail her arms or sock the pony in the gob and isn't strong enough to 'fix' her head. So what's the outcome? ? Everyone ignore the bsps & carry on regardless? I think it's about time we knew one way or another if these bits are allowed or not. If not fine but if they are then judges should not be penalising and competitors shouldn't be left wondering if the judge might not like the bit. can you put their latest statement on please...
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Post by Toffee on Jul 14, 2014 19:59:06 GMT
The British Show Pony Society is concerned that some ponies are being shown in bridles (bits) that we consider unsuitable for a child's pony. These bits are very severe and not suitable for novice and inexperienced riders. Judges have also reported that some competitiors are altering bits to make them more severe and adding curb chains to bits that were not designed for that purpose. These bits are often being used as a short cut to effective schooling and training.
Judges will take in account the suitability of a bit for the pony and rider and may well choose to severely penalise either in the placing of the pony or in the marks allocated for performance where they believe the bit is unsuitable and not conducive to being used in the show ring. Competitors are advised that judges will look more favourably on ponies that are schooled/trained appropriately.
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Post by Philippa on Jul 14, 2014 21:49:21 GMT
Thanks toffee
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Post by Toaster on Jul 14, 2014 22:43:55 GMT
It would be interesting to see a list of examples given by the BSPS. I personally am not sure they are targeting the Wilkie more bits like Swales
I do think that the Wilkie is a victim of fashion with SOME ponies wearing them that would go equally sweetly in a snaffle
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Jul 15, 2014 0:37:24 GMT
Why are you all so fussed about wilkies? What's the problem? I do feel people like to get on there soap boxes about wilkies lately just because there horses go wonderful in a snaffle so should everyone elses my first pony wasn't a show pony but a proper kids pony you could do anything with but I had to ride her in a kimbkewick till I was big enough to hold in a snaffle when we galloped everywhere
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Post by justjay on Jul 15, 2014 6:30:57 GMT
I always understood that a wilkie was a form of gag snaffle - perhaps I am wrong. I have a section A who does LR up to ODEs - she wears a jointed hanging snaffle . OK - she may never qualify for HOYS but she goes in an outline even with the tiny 5 year old who rides her in LR - she does dressage with a teenager and gets very good scores I suppose I am old fashioned in my bitting as Wilkies had not been invented when I started - and I can remember seeing my first one and asking the rider what it was. But IMO a lot of people dont actually understand the principles of bitting and just follow the trend
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Post by brindlerainbow on Jul 15, 2014 7:37:09 GMT
Thatboythatgirl your pony was in a kimblewick though because you were small at the time and the pony was a bit too strong for you and once you were bigger it could go back in a snaffle as you were strong enough to hold it, you weren't using the bit to pull it into an outline. I too used a kimblewick as a teenager on my horse as he was very strong especially out hunting but I used it to give me more brakes than a snaffle would.He worked in an outline whether in the snaffle or the kimblewick For those of us who do remember showing before the any suitable bit rule came in can't really understand why LR/FR can't go in snaffles. Back in the days before LR/FR had HOYS classes, their big final was BSPS champs at Peterborough. The classes would be absolutely huge and every pony would be in a snaffle as would the novice show ponies. This is a debate that could go round and round in circles, wilkies are like marmite you either love them or hate them!!! I personally wouldn't use one
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Post by mandmgirl0164 on Jul 15, 2014 8:40:34 GMT
Some ponies can cope with the action of the Wilkie type bits, others look distinctly uncomfortable in them, tension in neck,mouth open, not going forward, tongue partly showing. Bitting should be what is acceptable to the pony as well, not just what can be used to force outline.
In some cases I'm quite sure the horse/pony finds the contact of their riders hands/bit combination quite unacceptable and will, not surprisingly, evade this contact.
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Post by kateanne0 on Jul 15, 2014 9:03:04 GMT
Some ponies can cope with the action of the Wilkie type bits, others look distinctly uncomfortable in them, tension in neck,mouth open, not going forward, tongue partly showing. Bitting should be what is acceptable to the pony as well, not just what can be used to force outline. In some cases I'm quite sure the horse/pony finds the contact of their riders hands/bit combination quite unacceptable and will, not surprisingly, evade this contact. The BSPS statement on 'unsuitable bits' is vague to say the least! There is no mention of a Wilkie that I can see? The whinge on Wilkie bits is ancient! A Wilkie used correctly is no more harsh than any other bit in the wrong hands, it gives a little more 'hold' if needed. In my opinion, there should be more focus on NOSEBANDS! Restraining, Crank, Drop and an overtight Cavesson are all VERY uncomfortable for the horse/pony and can cause sore and grazed rubs under the poor ponies chins!! Please BSPS, make your statements more precise and clear and name the bits that are too severe! ALSO, let's have a fair rule - if a bit that is not supposed to have a curb chain is used in the show ring WITH a curb chain, then an immediate disqualification should be given! In this way EVERYONE knows exactly where they stand and JUDGES have a very clear instruction on how to deal with the issue. It's of no use for one judge to penalise ' severely' and another to 'tolerate' the bit in use.
However, at the same time, an old topic but still very valid, could you please add some thought to adult riders working in ponies that go in the lead rein and first ridden classes? Some ponies are worked in, ridden, or on the lunge, for far too long just to make them more amenable for the little jockey! Therefore, is it really a lead rein/first ridden pony? Also, no one is supposed to work in on the showground in artificial aids. however, I have seen one well known horse producer working in with draw reins?!! I'd like to see Joe Public get away with that one!!
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Post by Karen, garrettponies on Jul 15, 2014 10:00:02 GMT
There have been a lot of valid points here. My thoughts, there is a lot more thought goes into bits these days from when I was a child with more understanding of the conformation of the mouth and there are those that bit accordingly to the ponies needs. However, there are many ponies ridden in the mini's that are put in Wilkie types just to achieve the outline with baby ponies rushed to do big qualifiers in their novice years. I may get shot down but so many children are taught to sit pretty with few riding skills involved, I've seen more and more handles used in lead rein just to jam the hands down and keep the outline when some (not all) of the children should probably be capable of trotting without the aid of the handle.
My ponies are in French links, have used a Wilkie but as my daughters hands weren't the best, the pony didn't really appreciate it and was tense. Back to the French link, happier pony.
So much pressure is put on ponies and children these days to achieve the tickets before they are ready, time and schooling would probably be a better option than trawling round the country spending a fortune on classes and ending up with a pony and child sickened to death ! That's another topic......
It's not just wilkies though, there are so many bits available as a quick fix now. Also agree about nose bands garrotting ponies, I was always taught you should be able to fit two fingers between noseband and nose. They are so tight these days must be so uncomfortable, imagine wearing a pair of jeans two sizes too small!! Well, you wouldn't would you!!
Time and schooling people, time and schooling!!
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