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Post by Agree guess on Sept 9, 2014 10:02:12 GMT
Completely agree with RPJ - just how it used to be. Okay not infalliable (nothing is) but easier to follow the judge's line of thinking. Always remember seeing at PUK one year a huge class of intermediates (30+). One after another they came out and got naughtier and naughtier. Then towards the end one came out - moved beautifully and executed a fautless show. Judge immediately moved it to top of line (where it stayed) and spectators applauded the decision. Judge said afterwards he had missed it going around with the others as there were so many in the ring, hence the initial pull.
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Post by Good Idea on Sept 9, 2014 14:38:36 GMT
I agree with RPJ and say this used at Equifest.
On a seperate note, I think societys need to address the ongoing questions that are being raised by the marking systems in place currently.
I would be very interested if the society's could provide guidance on the systems that their judges will be using. I think a lot of people are questioning the judging and therefore the credibility of judges, however this is driven by a system which lacks transparency, or any framework from the societys that own it. Ultimately, the members of such societys need to attend the meetings/AGMS held by these societys to raise such conerns in order for any changes to be made. Until this is done, competitiors will remain disillusioned and judges will remain the villans.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 9, 2014 15:10:27 GMT
Do away with marks altogether! Call ponies in an order following the go round, this reflects the go round! After each individual performance either create a front line (good shows) and a back line (less than good shows) OR move the ponies up and down the line following the performance (immediate reward or penalty). Then conformation followed by a final walk round. Animals then placed taking in to account the go round, show, conformation and final walk round! I would prefer judges, judging on their own but if two necessary then ask one of the judges for the name of a co judge so that they judge together rather than opposing each other. There isn't a perfect system, all are open to misuse if not used properly! R P-J, how true! When we, as BSPS Judges, were first "introduced" to "MARKS" there was no discussion. We attended a (compulsory) seminar at Peterborough. The 'system' was explained to us; we had a Judges' "Workshop" (approx 6-8 of us to each table, to discuss and digest the system. Digest it we did. Had no alternative, to be honest. To this day, as judges, we have 'no alternative'. Because, these days, all people seem to want is "Marks sheets". The time has gone when we were considered capable of recording our thoughts in our memories. Our memories are now considered obsolete, as we just give our "Mark" to our Steward and move on. However, all this is a long way away from the original post regarding bad manners by exhibitors!
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Post by ukshowing on Sept 9, 2014 17:48:17 GMT
Many years ago, my Daughter competed in a class with 42 competitors, after the go round they where pulled in top to bottom, my daughter was one of the few not pulled and asked to just join the end of the line up. Following her individual show (about an hour later lol)The Judge confired with the steward, the steward then marched over to my daughter and spoke to her. From outside the ring we where clueless as to what was going on. The steward pulled my daughter from the line and walked with her up the line, myself and other onlookers thought she was being asked to leave the ring and couldn`t understand why. Much to our surprise she was put into 3rd place. The Judge had missed her on the go round, and had the courage to correct his mistake after her individual show. No points system just a very fair judge who judged what he saw in front of him on the day. The Judge in question Mr Nigel Hollings.
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Post by catkin on Sept 12, 2014 16:35:43 GMT
Robert Parker-Jones, I could not agree more
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Post by whip lass on Sept 15, 2014 10:39:08 GMT
the marking system has been tried and failed .other societys manage without marks and one judge doing a large class managed very well in the past and we don't often get large classes nowadays, so should be no problem.
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Post by stormyskies on Sept 15, 2014 11:10:18 GMT
I like the Mark system! I compete in coloured classes and I prefer seeing marks afterwards, as I like to know where it all went wrong or right and how the judge compared my pony to others. It often explains a lot! As well as confusing the he'll out of me sometimes, lol, but at least you can see annexplanation form your placing rather than just a rosette amd leaving you to ponder, wonder and presume
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becs13
Full Member
tindip midas gold
Posts: 374
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Post by becs13 on Sept 15, 2014 15:26:19 GMT
I totally agree with mr p j go back to the old fashioned judging there have been so many mistakes with the mark sheets this season that something needs to be done I also think that if marks have to be used then do what they do in the blue riband and hold a board up so spectators can see the mark simple !!!
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Post by rocknroll on Sept 15, 2014 19:35:50 GMT
I totally agree with Robert P-J. In the old days with some really excellent judges we all respected, including Robert P-J (not creeping at all LoL) it was nothing to have 20 - 30 ponies in the ring with only one judge plus one steward and generally an honest and agreeable result was arrived at. Don't get me wrong, I am not craving for "All Our Yesterdays" it's just I think the old system was fairer and less open to "system abuse". In respect of the alleged berating of the judge as reported in H and H, have a look on facebook and see the support the said person is getting from fellow competitors, which in my opinion makes it vital that the BSPS listens for a change or else they could eventually become a shadow of their former self. The esteem the Society was held in during Joan Lee-Smith's days at the helm was unbelievable. Is that true now? I think not, sadly.
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Post by Madras on Sept 15, 2014 20:04:03 GMT
Read this thread with interest. To get back on topic. It's amusing to see such support given to a known stalwart of showing, and I admire the man, believe me, and support his actions. However. Had it been an unknown, minion, the complaint and complainee would have been branded a numpty, green eyed monster, fish wife etcetera etcetera, and would never have reached publication in the horse and hound. We are ALL hard done by due to the "system" and a respected man snapped and made the headlines - if he lost the plot after all these years, then forgive the odd outburst from those with less patience. It is, most often, due to the sheer frustration of knowing results are bent and why. Societies need to address this. Members are leaving in droves and people are giving up propping up the line on good horses. Sponsors are a dwindling. Years ago it was genuine now it's a route to win. The marks system is totally open to abuse by corrupt judges, and they are plentiful in opinion. 49 one week 21 next. We are not stupid, the only stupid part, is we still do it!!!
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Post by Believe on Sept 15, 2014 20:21:27 GMT
I never would have believed that the sponsorship would make a difference to results, until now it has twigged.
We went to the CHAPS show, and the write up in H&H has a photo of every big sponsor of that show, the only exception being the supreme ridden which they obviously had to picture or it would just look odd.
And then I started looking back over the years and realising it was the same.
I have always noticed it at HOYS. Some 'surprise' winners each time, who happen to sponsor. Some repeatedly have good HOYS.
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Post by Madras on Sept 15, 2014 20:55:01 GMT
Yes. And then when it doesnt go the sponsorships way when they come up against a straight judge....they withdraw their sponsorship!! It's so hard for societies one might suppose. If only they had played the straight game from the off! Then maybe they wouldn't be facing the consequences of such foul and blatant pee taking!
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Post by Philippa on Sept 16, 2014 5:47:05 GMT
the marking system has been tried and failed .other societys manage without marks and one judge doing a large class managed very well in the past and we don't often get large classes nowadays, so should be no problem. Not sure what you show but we have m & m's and at the bigger shows there are between 40 & 70 entered in most sections. Even in the LR classes there have been nearly 50 entered. Hmmm, I don't call that small classes.
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Post by whip lass on Sept 16, 2014 6:39:45 GMT
I agree with u ,m+m classes are well filled I should have said sp and shp. I have stewarded many classes on the marks system and often the end result is not always the result the judge expected.
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Post by toffee2 on Sept 16, 2014 7:16:36 GMT
My personal gripe is 2 judges conferring in initial,go round. At a county HOYS class with 35 forward both judges stood together. The confo judge then started from the bottom line of line up while the first few did their individual. After 3 or 4 ponies I overheard her say ' can you let me know when we start with the tope pulled ponies'. Why? The position in the line up should make absolutely no difference to her at all.
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Post by horizon on Sept 16, 2014 9:02:47 GMT
The ride judge actually gave it 40 out of 50 for the show, to a pony that did buck and hump in its show surely it would have had to be a lot less, there was always another day to put a pony up that you like so much. This pony has won on its own merit and will continue to do so and I am sure the family will agree
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Post by Robert P-J on Sept 18, 2014 13:18:39 GMT
It is important I feel that the 2 judges discuss the ponies on the go round and that ponies are called in, in an order (at least 10, note numbers of naughty ponies) When the 2 judges get on and agree then the results are mostly understandable and fair. When there is no discussion and no agreement then results are often difficult to fathom, one judge marking tactically to get a desired result. I have said more than once that 1 judge is invited to judge and asked who would they like to judge with. Results are more consistent when judges are in harmony! On the point of poor performance getting marked well......... one day judges will realise that marking performance is just that...... nothing to do with good conformation and type!
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Post by whip lass on Sept 18, 2014 14:51:46 GMT
the trouble is nobody takes any notice of some of these great suggestions ,not even open to discussions .surly the societys should listen to there members and judges.
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Post by catkin on Sept 20, 2014 18:19:10 GMT
toffee2 - surely the go round should count for something?
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Post by ponymum on Sept 20, 2014 19:26:28 GMT
My comment from a few days ago appears to have gone? I said a friend of mine has sent a letter and video of a show to the BSPS and has asked them to give her feedback on the video and what they would mark the performance.....Guess what........She has had no response! I thought the society was nothing with out the paying members! Looks like a few may vote with their feet unless WE the members get the information we need... I think re above catkins comment , that 10 marks should be available for the go round, 50 for performance and 40 for conf , lets face it , showing is about the performance...isnt it?
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Post by nst0708 on Sept 20, 2014 20:15:13 GMT
I salute the said gentleman for making a stand ( and wish I had the balls to do it!). Unfortunately, on the back of that I also agree with 2nd comment on thread that at the RI the Supreme Show pony did wrong leg in the class and I cannot agree that it should then go on to take Supreme when the 2nd place pony did a faultless show. I think even if its corrected it SHOULD NOT take first place. I also feel that judges should not pull from the go round in order, what I have witnessed throughout the season is once they have set their stall and pulled a pony in the top three even if it does a poor show it never tends to drop many places when there are more deserving ponies pulled lower that should be moved up. I am equally frustrated at the end of 2014 as I was at the end of 2013 at the total inconsistency of judging throughout the season e.g at 10.45am in the summer champs our pony at a conf mark of 44 at 11.45 a conf mark of 28! which had it been the latter we would have qualified for HOYS. Good on the said gentleman I say and we all shouldn't be so bloody British and just accept it!! The BSPS as a society need to realise changes need to be made.
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Post by ohno on Sept 28, 2014 10:32:49 GMT
After watching some of the judging at another championship show without marks it became very obvious from a spectator and competitor point of view why marks are useful to look at. Ideally shows would video classes to ensure judges judge what is presented to them and not who is on top or producing. Ground jury's could then refer to these if comment or objections are made. Societies could share these should issues arise under other rules to see if a pattern is emerging. An ideal but not impossible in this day and age.
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