|
Post by ferrarichick on Oct 14, 2014 19:46:36 GMT
I was shocked to see a horse go champion at HOYS sporting curbs. Plus lots of horses with splints, windgalls and thoroughpins.
Do judges know the basics of conformation anymore? Should reassessment, or at least further education be taking place?
Or is it simply that they don't get enough time to properly evaluate a horse? Or are some of them at risk of having their eyesight questioned?!
|
|
|
Post by chalky284 on Oct 14, 2014 19:54:40 GMT
I always thought of splints, windgalls and thoroughpins as blemishes rather than conformation faults!? They often show a horse has had a working life outside of showing often in keeping with the type of classes they are shown in. Obviously some judges mark blemishes down but others have the same view as stated at the start of my post.
|
|
|
Post by harri72 on Oct 14, 2014 20:03:04 GMT
Have to agree they are blemishes not conformation faults in my opinion
|
|
|
Post by gillwales on Oct 14, 2014 20:13:59 GMT
I do think that Judges need to have their eyes tested, nothing to do with this post, but I am aware of one judge on numerous panels that is blind as a bat.
|
|
|
Post by ferrarichick on Oct 14, 2014 20:48:44 GMT
I take your point on splints etc but curbs? I was under the impression these are a big no no in showing. Am I wrong? I'm always keen to learn
|
|
F1J4
Full Member
Posts: 232
|
Post by F1J4 on Oct 14, 2014 20:58:16 GMT
We have mainly shown our inhand ponies this year so can't comment directly on the riddens however, I like many others have also been suprised at how many judges will now put bad conformation over a pony that is simply not their "type".
With no black and white mark systems for deductions of points for, shall we say poor conformation, in place though why should a judge not use their own opinion and preference?!
Stick by the you win some you loose some Moto until a stronger mark system with more regulations are put into place in my opinion
|
|
|
Post by chalky284 on Oct 14, 2014 21:03:15 GMT
I take your point on splints etc but curbs? I was under the impression these are a big no no in showing. Am I wrong? I'm always keen to learn As far as I am aware ( and I am certainly no expert) blemishes such as those mentioned are likely to be forgiven in say hunter classes or native classes. After all these ponies would have done a weeks work on the field or out hunting every week. So would be expected to pick up marks and the odd bump. That said, there are judges that would consider any blemish a complete no!
|
|
smalley
Full Member
Horses lend us the wings we lack
Posts: 419
|
Post by smalley on Oct 14, 2014 21:09:45 GMT
This is interesting because I've just got a horse (not for showing) who has a thoroughpin and slightly capped hocks but apart from this she'd make a great worker, so would some judges not mind this?
|
|
|
Post by gillwales on Oct 15, 2014 3:50:28 GMT
in workers the way of going and jump marks make up a large proportion. I once co judged with someone who had a hissy fit because a horse won with a curb, I pointed out that it was he who had marked the conformation and in fact it was the only one that jumped clear and with any style.
Blemishes should be taken into account if likely to cause unsoundness or impede way of going. There is no hard or fast rule however these are things that are discussed at the appraisals and if they crop up, at the probations. Obviously it is preferred that there are no blemishes.
|
|
|
Post by semperfi on Oct 15, 2014 10:54:47 GMT
It frustrates me to see a horse with splints, curbs etc winning/going champ. Also the fashion for horses to move with a daisy cutter action (even in hunter classes!!) mean that many of them dish rather badly (some interesting viewing if you watch the prelim judging for supreme - more than one throws a/multiple legs quite badly!) However, I can understand hunters/cobs having splints/throughpins and these being overlooked somewhat, especially if the horse does hunt or compete at other disciplines outside the showring.
|
|
|
Post by topsy14 on Oct 15, 2014 11:00:25 GMT
I suppose it comes down to which class you are in. As previous posters have said some judges overlook blemishes to a certain degree depending on the class they are judgeing for example a hunter class.
|
|
fernwhitecharity
Full Member
www.spanglefish.com/thefernwhitecharityshow
Posts: 229
|
Post by fernwhitecharity on Oct 15, 2014 18:28:37 GMT
Janet Bushell is your lady for this one! I would like to hear her opinion.
My view is that a show animal is a show animal regardless of what other activities it participates in. They should be clean limbed and this is why many show horses are purely for showing. Very few hunters will have seen a hunt field. This isn't to say ALL show horses JUST show, but a lot of the top bunch will just have one job.
|
|
|
Post by janetbushell on Oct 16, 2014 4:59:31 GMT
fernwhitecharity - not sure why you have singled me out, and as you will probably have realised, I post information and not opinion on HG
However, when judging, IMO there is a vast difference between the signs of wear and tear caused by age or working life, and those caused by conformational weakness.
To me "a blemish" is an acquired mark/scar whereas splints, windgalls etc can be an indication of weakness in conformation, although not always, and so each case would be judged individually.
When I assess conformation, I start at the bottom and work up - if an animal has poor feet/limbs it will struggle to remain sound, or to work hard without throwing up nature's natural strengtheners and lubricators.
When I was buying animals for my girls to show these ideals, along with straight movement were always the most important thing for me.
I have always joked that animals must have good looks, as if I am going to spend my life tending to their needs (in particular mucking out!) then they had to be beautiful, so that I got pleasure while doing my chores, and they had to have good limbs and feet to minimise my bills from the vet & the farrier.
The ideas behind good conformation have not just evolved from the idea of "beauty" but from humans needing the animals to work without illness/unsoundness for as long a time as possible, either on a daily basis, or over a lifetime & to do this they need to be put together to carry out the job required. The modern show animal may no longer carry out the tasks it was originally bred for, but IMO this does not mean these considerations are any less important.
That said, a judge can only judge what is in front of them, and therefore in any class it is always a question of weighing up perceived "faults" and balancing that with way of going and manners in a ridden class (which takes into account the go round) PLUS type, which when people look at "conformation" marks, they should also remember includes this element.
The above statement is a broad outline & just my opinion on how I judge, and is not a comment on ANY individual animal at ANY show or one which may or may not have won or been placed under me or indeed any other judge. I consider being asked to judge at any show a great honour, and I always hope that even if competitors are disappointed with their result in any particular class, they can follow my reasoning. This may include taking a decision with an animal's conformation & type mark, which would be different on another day & in another class with different animals to compare it with.
|
|
sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
|
Post by sarahp on Oct 16, 2014 6:21:01 GMT
I have avoided getting into this debate so far but had to say how much I agree with what janetbushell has said above on the difference and importance between blemishes and what could be the result of conformational weakness. I don't judge, but surely showing is basically about correct conformation to do a job, of course type comes into it but undesirable conformation faults could result in a horse being unsuitable for anything? With correct conformation, if you don't like its type it would still have a job away from the show ring or breeding paddocks, but with lovely type but conformation faults surely you shouldn't breed from it either?
|
|
|
Post by Karen, garrettponies on Oct 16, 2014 8:20:47 GMT
I have a lovely Connemara, purchased this time last year that had bred two cracking foals before being broken at 6 and sold to me. Conformationally she is true to type, moves well and loves work. I was looking forward to getting out and about and doing novices with her this year. Unfortunately she threw a huge splint right under her knee from her impatience and door banging not from work as it was just as ground dried up. Gutted, I turned her away and tried various methods to reduce it but it is still there. She's never been lame, not even a tiny bit unlevel.
I've always been under the impression that if a judge would choose a pony unblemished over one that has a huge splint if push came to shove and there was a choice between two. I didn't want her dropping because of it and am still of two minds whether to try next year, she's a lovely stamp of a pony but you can't miss the splint! Maybe I'm wrong and should just get on with it?!!
|
|
|
Post by ferrarichick on Oct 16, 2014 12:21:11 GMT
So is a curb a confirmation fault or a blemish? I thought they were a massive 'no no' in the showring (whereas splints etc may be more forgive able?). This particular horse was in a flat class and having spoken to a few (more clued up) people it is well known for having curbs. I think I need to do some reading up on conformation, always room in the grey matter for learning!
|
|
fernwhitecharity
Full Member
www.spanglefish.com/thefernwhitecharityshow
Posts: 229
|
Post by fernwhitecharity on Oct 16, 2014 17:54:08 GMT
fernwhitecharity - not sure why you have singled me out, and as you will probably have realised, I post information and not opinion on HG I meant it as an upmost compliment because I regard you very highly!
|
|
|
Post by janetbushell on Oct 16, 2014 18:02:52 GMT
Thank you very much fernwhitecharity! Hope you found my response useful
|
|
|
Post by manes&muzzles on Oct 16, 2014 22:58:13 GMT
Whats worse a curb or qualifying on a wrong leg? A splint or a buck? Windgalls or overbent? I am not aware of which horse your talking about but my point is you cant single out a curb and not take into consideration its way of going, its manners? Out of interested have you looked at the mark sheets it may not have been the highest pony on confirmation because of this but redeemed itself on its ride. At the end of the day it is what it is and every competitor home produced to producer spend alot of time and money for their moment so lets let them have it. PS. I see splints as an injury, research suggests its caused by dense bone but it hasnt been scientifically proven which is why it cant be deemed as a confirmational fault.
|
|
|
Post by whip lass on Oct 17, 2014 6:57:52 GMT
in my humble view a show horse is a show animal and should have as clean confirmation as possible with no blemishes ,you wouldn't put a beauty queen to win a beauty contest with bow legs and a wart on her nose.!!!!! obviously with a ridden animal there are lots more to it than perfect confirmation but to me it is a show horse and should be as nr perfect as possible.
|
|
|
Post by ukshowing on Oct 17, 2014 8:36:20 GMT
Excellent response Janet, would be wonderful if competitors could follow all Judges way of thinking, as some never make any sense, I personally have always enjoyed competing under you, win or lose, as we always understand the reason for our placings.
Jeanette
|
|
|
Post by janetbushell on Oct 17, 2014 8:40:33 GMT
Thank you Jeanette
|
|
|
Post by ferrarichick on Oct 17, 2014 8:42:41 GMT
Whats worse a curb or qualifying on a wrong leg? A splint or a buck? Windgalls or overbent? I am not aware of which horse your talking about but my point is you cant single out a curb and not take into consideration its way of going, its manners? Out of interested have you looked at the mark sheets it may not have been the highest pony on confirmation because of this but redeemed itself on its ride. At the end of the day it is what it is and every competitor home produced to producer spend alot of time and money for their moment so lets let them have it. PS. I see splints as an injury, research suggests its caused by dense bone but it hasnt been scientifically proven which is why it cant be deemed as a confirmational fault. I have looked at the marks sheet and the horse had the 2nd highest conformation mark. Suggests then that either the judge doesn't mind curbs, they don't know what one is or they didn't spot them. All 3 situations in my mind are worrying.
|
|
|
Post by thatboythatgirl on Oct 17, 2014 10:57:55 GMT
Janet Bushell is your lady for this one! I would like to hear her opinion. My view is that a show animal is a show animal regardless of what other activities it participates in. They should be clean limbed and this is why many show horses are purely for showing. Very few hunters will have seen a hunt field. This isn't to say ALL show horses JUST show, but a lot of the top bunch will just have one job. which is why so many horses end up dumped once they hit a certain ages because of people that have this view of show ponies/horses that all they can do is trot around in ciricles looking pretty. Alot of top producers to do other things with their horses so that they have a life after showing! Conformation is half of being in the showrinf break that down further and thing of all the varying aspects of what make good conforamtion it's not hard to understand why horses that have splints windgall etc can still do well as is a small part of a bigger picture.
|
|
|
Post by janetbushell on Oct 17, 2014 11:35:39 GMT
thatboythat girl - not sure if you think this is my view - if so please read my post again & if not please accept my apologies.
|
|
|
Post by dogandbone on Oct 17, 2014 20:48:18 GMT
The part I don't understand in judging and marks etc is - if each animal is judged 'on the day' then how does its conformation mark alter in the space of a week under the same judge? If one takes the "perfect" obtaining full marks (in an ideal world, though we all know there is no such thing as the perfect horse/pony) - then each 'fault' in conformation from bottom to top, one or more marks is deducted until the whole animal is judged, and resulting mark is given!! - Why does that mark vary according to other animals in the class? Surely it either has 3,4 5 or however many faults in the eyes of that particular judge - which maybe another judge doesn't agree with, but nevertheless the one judge must see the same faults every time he or she sees the said horse or pony. Am I missing a vital point here? ?
|
|
|
Post by gillwales on Oct 18, 2014 5:13:50 GMT
The part I don't understand in judging and marks etc is - if each animal is judged 'on the day' then how does its conformation mark alter in the space of a week under the same judge? If one takes the "perfect" obtaining full marks (in an ideal world, though we all know there is no such thing as the perfect horse/pony) - then each 'fault' in conformation from bottom to top, one or more marks is deducted until the whole animal is judged, and resulting mark is given!! - Why does that mark vary according to other animals in the class? Surely it either has 3,4 5 or however many faults in the eyes of that particular judge - which maybe another judge doesn't agree with, but nevertheless the one judge must see the same faults every time he or she sees the said horse or pony. Am I missing a vital point here? ? Often you will take a base from the first animal you mark and then work up or down from there. Please remember that judges are humans not robots, if you want the constant conformation mark, then each animal should be assessed at the beginning of the season, when it is measured, and that will be the conformation mark you receive for that year. I am so pleased that I no longer judge, I am really fed up with all of this "judge bashing" Makes me wonder why anyone bothers to do it these days.
|
|
|
Post by janetbushell on Oct 18, 2014 6:23:34 GMT
Hard to explain on a keyboard dogandbon but I am judging the whole class as well as each individual animal and the following week the class is not the same. If I was judging those animals in hand without using marks then they would be placed in the order according to my preference & so when using my marks they reflect this. Suppose there were 10 animals in a class. These 10 animals all had the same number of faults & therefore I gave them all the same mark I have not arrived at a result. That is not to say that in large classes some animals will not receive the same mark, but I do believe that the conformation judge is being asked to judge the class as well as the performance judge.
|
|
|
Post by comanchediva on Oct 18, 2014 6:34:57 GMT
Also surely sometimes a judge sees something different about a pony the next time he or she sees him. We showed a yearling under a judge last year and he stood bottom of the class. The same judge was judging at a different show 4 weeks later. Pony was entered and we almost didn't take him but we said sod it we will and he won and stood Reserve Champion. The class was obviously different but there were similar types and ages of youngstock in both classes. So was the quality of pony in the second class not as good as the first or did the judge see something in our pony they missed the first time? He hadn't changed that much in 4 weeks. And if it was the latter then so be it, judges are after all only human
|
|
|
Post by dogandbone on Oct 18, 2014 11:09:55 GMT
Yes I can see that one needs to judge the whole class, and please Gillwales, please don't think I am 'judge bashing' - if that is how it came across, then I am truly sorry, it was not meant as a criticism in any way! I am looking for some sort of an explanation, which Janet Bushell has given, though surely in each animal it is a matter of opinion as to which faults are worse than another, therefore giving part of different judges results?! There would of course be no point in the conformation mark being given at the beginning of the season - for a start it is only one opinion, and as pointed out before, different will 'like or dislike' different aspects of any pony/horse. Some might be very strong on a good hind leg and quarters, where another judge must see a fantastic front, and shoulder. It is each to his own. How you put the first animal you see as the bench mark, seems harsh on that animal too - but I can see you have to start somewhere, so I can see this makes some sort of sense!! Though if the first before you is a truly beautiful animal in your eyes when judging, and you give it a very high mark, and later down the line some more come with equal beauty, .......... ? I suppose this is where equal marks come in, but it is not ideal! Being at a loss as to a better system, I can run with that !!!! I still can't believe how conformation marks can vary as much as they do within a few days though!!
|
|