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Post by rainy day on Oct 21, 2014 18:30:00 GMT
Are modern facilities/practises producing 'fair weather horses'?
Weather in recent years combined with lack of grazing in a lot of places means so many people now keep their horses stabled in bad weather. In yesteryear, horses would be out happily in herds, in fields offering shelter in the form or trees and hedges whereas nowadays, horses stood in an electric fenced paddock on their own are often miserable as they can't get relief from the weather even if rugged.
Indoor schools, horse walkers (sometimes covered) means that less and less horses are exercised in bad weather either.
I try to turn out whatever the weather but have a new horse on the yard this year and whilst all the others are grazing happily, she is taking time to learn to settle in bad weather. I presume this is because she has come from a yard with an indoor school and has been kept in during bad weather so is not used to experiencing wind and/or rain.
If horses have a 'duvet day' whenever it rains, how on earth do people expect them to settle in a show ring if the heavens open?
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Post by chalky284 on Oct 21, 2014 18:46:50 GMT
Possibly not good getting me started on such issues!!!!! But to a point I agree with you. However I've found that some yard owners appear to have little concern for their tenants and more concern for their pockets. Many yards around me have no turnout for 7-9 months of the year, substituting turnout with ridden exercise and /or a horse walker. Cramming yards with more stables than the land can cope with, giving the YO an ideal excuse to 'preserve' the fields and banning any turnout. The more people accept this the more it happens.
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foxyt
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Post by foxyt on Oct 21, 2014 19:02:42 GMT
My young horse was going out no matter what this morning, the older pony (17 &11:2) went around the corner out of the passage and the wind inflated her rug and nearly lifted her off the ground. She tried to come back in but the youngster herded her in to the field! It was very funny to watch as the oldie is the one that would normally like to live out!
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fernwhitecharity
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Post by fernwhitecharity on Oct 21, 2014 19:13:09 GMT
Mine regularly have duvet days :-) they don't like the cold & wet!
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foxyt
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Post by foxyt on Oct 21, 2014 19:22:15 GMT
It's funny, we have cows that only want to live inside with a buffet even in summer. We had one last year that would keep running back to the shed as the others trooped off down the yard.
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Post by natural on Oct 21, 2014 19:58:26 GMT
I do try to keep the ones I have at home as natural as possible. They have nice warm bedded up stables that doors are left open straight into the field, with ad lib hay and are fed once a day. It is really funny but left to their own devices they choose to be outdoors in winter and mainly use the stables in summer for the heat and flies. My last bough horse was a hunter and kept mainly indoors and as the OP says, when I first got her she wanted every day to be a duvet day but now she is part of a small herd that are able to be as natural as I can make them she is out with her rug on happily and does not restrict herself to the stable as she used to do. Im lucky to have my yard and I know some cant but to say the horse chooses a stable is not what I have found when they are allowed to express their natural behaviours
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Post by ponymum on Oct 21, 2014 20:05:01 GMT
I have 3 ponies . A 15h tb . a 14.2 sp (PB Warmblood) and a connie....guess who stayed out tonihgt?? The sp!!!! She is in a field about 700feet above sea level , bit has some shelter behind dry stone walls and trees...I went to bring her in , gave her a treat , felt under her rug and she was toastie warm (even after hail ) so I walked towards the gate , she followed me for 3 strides and then turned back to the herd and cantered off - Enough said!! She wants to stay out!! The other 2 are in!
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Post by dawnie on Oct 21, 2014 20:07:48 GMT
I amazes the response I get for staying in the paddock and carrying on working if the heavens open, or going out hacking if its raining...they think am slightly unhinged! My response is that mine wont be curled up turning its back in the ring if it rains.
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Post by Toaster on Oct 21, 2014 20:11:33 GMT
One of mine is a wuss and hates bad weather, I indulge it to a point (he gets rugged and stabled) but unless the weather is horrid he has to suck it up and get booted outside for the day, he wont melt in the rain after all no matter what he thinks!
I have another pony who couldn't care less what the weather conditions are, he is happy out and unrugged currently and wont be rugged or bought in until the weather (or the land) conditions really deteriorate
I heartily agree with the comment above about overstocking, I wonder if the demand for cheap livery is making yards take on more than they can reasonably cope with, I am astonished how cheap some livery is
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Post by Agree on Oct 21, 2014 20:24:07 GMT
I kept my horse at a yard that is owned by an event rider - no turnout for 7 months of the year. She is married to a vet - who after my horse nibbled a fence post, he banned summer turnout too! Even a vet thinks more about his pocket than the horse. It was a disgrace
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Post by LandLover on Oct 21, 2014 21:18:42 GMT
Yes, I think you are right, Philippa. It's a case of supply and demand with regard to livery yards. Land is an expensive comodity nowadays, there is less of it available, and at the same time the demand for places to keep horses, especially in sub-urban and semi-urban areas is ever increasing, and horse ownership for leisure purposes is at its highest level ever. Before denigrating livery yards for cramming in too many horses and not providing sufficient turnout, do the maths... Ideally, given our weather conditions, you'd need an absolute minimum of 1.5 acres per horse per year to enable year-round turnout, at 0.75 of an acre for each six month period, which is only just adequate IMO. In most areas where demand is high, where yards and fields compete with housing estates, schools, etc, land can cost an exhorbitant sum, but let's say it's an average of £12K an acre, so for each horse that's £18K of land, which you might need to pay finance costs on, plus a stable @ say £3K, plus the land that the stable stands on and which needs to have planning permission which makes it more valuable, so say £3K for that too, plus the fencing of the land, the provision of a water supply, and an electricity supply and a bit more land so that each owner can park their car. For the absolute basics, without wash-down facilities, a menage, a yard area and other spaces, that's an investment cost of at LEAST £25K PER HORSE. At a 10% return on investment or equivalent cost of finance, which is about reasonable on land and property, that would equate to annual rent of £2,500. Then add to that the day to day running costs of maintenance, insurance, business rates, the actual water and electricity used, the cost of looking after the land itself, fertilising, manure removal, re-seeding gateways, and the true cost of provision per horse for a stable and year-round turnout is about £250 a month, for just a stable and a field, per horse, no menage, no facilities whatsoever. Yet horse owners expect to pay £20 a week for DIY livery, and because they can get it at that price at an old converted dairy farm where the land and buildings have been in the same family for generations and where no proper insurance is paid and the fencing is a bit hotch-potch and the land is weedy and never re-seeded or cared for, that creates an expected market price. The only way that livery yards that do want to provide decent facilities, invest in the property, and yes MAKE A LIVING can therefore compete and survive is by reducing the land to horse ratio and meeting the demand of the local horse owning public. If a horse owner really wants year-round turnout and high standards of provision then s/he should either buy the land and find out how expensive and hard it all is, or expect to pay the real cost + a profit margin, so £300 a month folks for DIY livery???
It's like the letter about shoddy livery yards in H&H last week. You get what you pay for, and in all probability if you are on a DIY livery yard you are actually already getting a lot more than you pay for. No-one forces anyone else to keep their horse at a yard with limited turnout, but if you want to keep a horse at DIY livery in any area where land is expensive and demand is high, and you want it to be 'affordable', then chances are you are going to have to accept limited turnout.
And, no, I'm not a yard owner, but I know how much it costs me in mortgage costs, fencing, paddock maintenance, grass seed, weed spraying, muck removal, and all the rest of it to provide year-round turnout for my horses at home.
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Post by Getting wet! on Oct 21, 2014 21:41:16 GMT
Yes I think we have made them soft!
Mine are brought in but are equally happy to be out. I have my own land luckily but I'm not overly precious about it. It soon recovers so unless it's thick ice mine go out every day regardless. Keeps them sane. I don't over rug, only two have rugs on. I work them in the rain,. They are waterproof!!
I had a connie that would shut her eyes when it rained, she carried on working but with her eyes shut. Slightly unnerving on board but she got on with it!
Out of 25 ponies in a first ridden class, my pony and my friends were the only two that stood like rocks when the heavens opened at equifest last year.
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Post by bliss10 on Oct 21, 2014 23:39:06 GMT
I always ride in the rain. They like coming in when it is wet but none of them stress.
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Post by chalky284 on Oct 22, 2014 6:48:47 GMT
Landlover I think you'll find that a lot of yards are farms that have diversified, or own land handed down through generations. I would think that there are few yards who have recently bought land so the maths you demonstrated would not necessarily apply. But you are right with an increasing equine and human population, land is at a premium and many owners need convenience as much as facilities. Sadly around me certainly, the 'get what you pay for' does not apply, the yards with hardly any turnout are often full with a waiting list and charge £40-45 per week DIY and nothing included in that!
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Post by nici on Oct 22, 2014 7:42:57 GMT
Yesterday for the first time our recently backed 4yo was ridden in rain and gales. He didn't bat an eyelid but concentrated really well on his work. I think this is testament to the fact that he has lived out all his life, naked until very recently, and is used to being out in all weathers. Thankfully we have our own place and can decide for ourselves how to manage the ponies. Most of ours dislike being stabled for too long - they're happy to come in for a haynet, then they're pushing the doors wanting to get back out again, whatever the weather.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Oct 22, 2014 8:08:34 GMT
Surely if a livery yard is using land for turnout only as opposed to providing feed, then the amount per horse required would be much lower than that stated above? Even growing and harvesting hay/haylage for feed the rule of thumb is one acre per horse, and if the land, or part of it in the winter, was trashed during turnout feed could be bought in instead, it's a question of priorities.
I have my own land so can manage it how I like, and fencing is the worst ongoing cost here, especially as it was all fenced more or less at once when we moved in 33 years ago so all seems to have gone and needed replacing at roughly the same time. Unlike LandLover I don't spray weeds, just top as infrequently as possible, as I have native ponies and try to cultivate a sward suitable to them with as little ryegrass as possible and as wider range of herbs etc that would be killed off if I did. No reseeding or fertilising except liming when required, just the muck, what there is of it with few ever kept in, composted and spread. I do keep a small flock of sheep that are not lambed as a management tool though and consider them invaluable.
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Post by topsy14 on Oct 22, 2014 8:14:48 GMT
Our yard has all year 24/7 turn out. Since i have had my hunter (3 years now) he has happily lived out in summer but was standing at the gate come late August demanding to come in. This year my has he changed!! He is now more than happy to stay out, and indeed still is living out at the moment, and seems to have turned into the hardy sort just like my now retired pony- yippeeee!! Not sure what caused the sudden change but I am definately not complaining!! They will be coming in at night when the weather turns really bad but I always try to turn them out at least a couple of hours a day even in bad weather but there are some on the yard who have "duvet days" even in the hight of summer!! I have never really been one to fuss over them being out in the rain- they won't melt afterall!!!
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Post by AnnieRoseSplash on Oct 22, 2014 9:50:22 GMT
All of my daughters ponies were very happy to come in yesterday in the gales and rain, all happy munching all day, they didn't really want to go out for a leg stretch in the evening while I mucked out. TBH I don't want my daughter riding in that weather unless she really has to, due to her health issues, different at a show/out hacking/etc if the heavens opened all ponies and her would just get wet and cold (I will go in the ring and cover up her and the pony if that happens just to prevent any hospital visits lol) but they would carry on doing their job. I don't really think its important to ride in all weathers, I wouldnt show if the forcast was horrific! I would happily keep them all out tbh, but, on livery where you get 2 paddocks per pony so if the paddocks are trashed thats it for turnout. The fields do get very wet, there isn't a lot of grazing, so its easier to bring them in and feed hay staying warm and dry. Not one was in a rush to go out this morning, two had to be dragged out of their stable, think they were hoping for another duvet day. In an ideal world all of them would be out day and night all year round but I love the livery yard we are on, so put up with lack of dry land! Edit to say - we only have 7 horses 4 small ponies on the yard and have 20 acres turnout so are not short of land as such but in wet weather only about half of that can be used!
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Post by stormyskies on Oct 22, 2014 12:07:25 GMT
I think it's like kids, every one is different. I have horses that will stay out all weathers and some that prefer their warm stable amd a Haynet. I treat each accordingly. My stallion is a massive wuss amd hates going out in winter. I am not prepared to leave him pacing the fence line and then jumping the gate. In the ring, he performs better in the rain and has no problem with it
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smalley
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Post by smalley on Oct 22, 2014 19:22:18 GMT
When I went to try the horse in my display picture (who we've sadly lost) for the 2nd time there was horizontal rain and hail, we were on the side of a hill and he was 5 having done very little. He didn't bat an eyelid and he was a warmblood. All ours at home are out in all weathers, we don't put the big horses out in the fields through winter as we're on clay and the ground gets ruined for next year if they're left out as we don't have loads of land, but they go out for 1/2 a day each in the arena with a haynet no matter what the weather. They're all ridden no matter what the weather as well because at the end of the day you can't choose the weather when you're competing. However I know when it's been horrible the 2 who go out 1/2 a day are always happy to be back in the stable tucked in!!
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Post by LandLover on Oct 22, 2014 19:44:34 GMT
Chalky, I don't see why the fact of land having been handed down through generations means that people should earn less from it - it's still a highly valuable asset and my point is that per acre it should be able to earn according to its current market value, which is determined by what it would cost to buy that land nowadays. And no, for £40/50 a week you can't expect to get year round turnout. My point is that the real cost of providing year round turnout is closer to £80-£100 a week, and if people are getting year-round turnout for less than that then they are lucky and are benefiting from the fact that land has been inherited and the land owners can afford to earn less from it than its true worth.
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Post by LandLover on Oct 22, 2014 19:58:55 GMT
SarahP, how much land you need for year-round turnout rather than feeding off it depends a lot on the kind of land and the horses. With shod hunters on clay or loam for example you need a lot more land per horse than for unshod ponies on sand or limestone, unless you don't mind them standing knee-deep in mud, but I'm assuming that when we say turnout we do mean something that has come coverage on it and isn't a quagmire. I'm just trying to emphasise that people on livery yards are often oblivious to values and costs and it's not necessarily about yard owners being money-grabbing. And DIY owners can be very fickle and move from one yard to another, trashing field after field as they go in order to get maximum turnout for their money, so it's no wonder that yards impose limited turnout, because those same horse owners do want to feed off the fields in the summer when they have turned them in to a quagmire in the winter.
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aura
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Post by aura on Oct 22, 2014 21:28:13 GMT
All ours are still ridden whatever the weather (unless dangerous) and if the ground is so so bad we will turn out in the school for a leg stretch but other then that ours are out at least a few hours each day. Occasiobally they have a duvet day but I'd rather that than risk an injury and none of them mind.
I can not, and do not agree with livery yards with no turn out over winter. I think even a couple of hours is better then no turn out and personal it would be a priority when looking for stabling
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Post by dawnie on Oct 22, 2014 21:30:35 GMT
Perhaps I lived in a different world when I was younger, but nothing was turned out over winter. The fields were rested and everything was in including other livestock. We do have winter turnout on our yard and the YO does reach a point where it is limited which I fully understand the reasons why. I consider the winter turn out as a chance of a leg stretch and good old roll, not a place to leave them stood from first thing in the morning to last thing in the evening trashing the winter field.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Oct 23, 2014 7:00:16 GMT
I'm now mid-60s, and our own childhood ponies lived out all year round, in fact there was no stabling at all where they lived at one time. But against that, at the suburban riding-school where I learned to ride there was no turnout whatsoever, all the horses and ponies lived inside, some in old fashioned stalls tied up, and exercise was all ridden, either in the indoor school or hacking in the large fenced in but wild park nearby. Which just goes to show that personal experience is just that, it doesn't prove a general point!
LandLover, all good points which illustrate the futility of laying down general figures, but I was trying to make the point that livery yards do have the option of using land with turnout in mind rather than worrying about providing feed through the summer, which could be brought in and fed. I'd still maintain that you wouldn't need as much as 1 1/2 acres per horse to provide a few hours TO per day.
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dis
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Post by dis on Oct 23, 2014 19:13:45 GMT
Mine are out most the yr. if the land drains well, theres enough of it per horse it works fine. if you expect the horse to work in all weathers, you should train it to accept this, so this includes riding in the rain etc at home.
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