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Post by Gutted member NLI on Oct 22, 2014 19:35:20 GMT
Ok so I'm a member but would like some advice. I have a horse that has been diagnosed with EMS which is managed but has recently had a blood test for cushings which came back mid 90's when it should be under 47. Now I know the results are higher at this time of year and there are horses test a lot higher. Said horse has been lame for 3 months or so with bouts of lammi.
Vet wants to go onto pergolide but here's my dilemma. Horse is shown at HOYS level. Blacksmith says its not going to improve without meds.
ive spoken to freestep people and horse has been on superfix but keeps going lame so there must be some underlying issue which is where the cushings would fit in. Horse is only 9 forgot that bit.
So, do I keep horse and put on pergolide and show at a lower level?? Give horse away or PTS?? Keeping a field ornament is not an option unfortunately.
Im looking for all options and I'm sure there are people with horses tested high that show them too, what are they on??
im desperate to keep this animal sound and still show at the level it should be.
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aura
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Post by aura on Oct 22, 2014 21:42:05 GMT
I think you need to think about what is best for the horse.
if you have to fill the pony with meds just to keep it sound then I personally wouldn't show it.
However I don't agree with putting a pony to sleep when it could live a comfy life as a friend to another pony or in retirement. I would be reluctant also to advertise free to a good home as ponies often end up in bad hands that way.
Speak to your vet, explain your concerns however I would say riding if the pony is only sounds due to meds is a big no no.
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Post by honeypot on Oct 22, 2014 23:17:54 GMT
Not all horses do well on peroglide, so I would have the vet do a trial and see if there is any improvement. To be honest if mine had been lame for three months not trying a medication that may some improvement would be not be an option, feed companies supplements are not an alternative to proper medication. If this pony is in show condition the chances are that it is carrying too much weight for its metabolism and it dropping a couple of dress sizes,and keeping in on a low sugar high fibre diet would help it recover. Humans who are diabetic, type 2 can often come off medication if they lose weight. www.equine-vets.com/fact-sheets/hormonal-problems/equine-metabolic-syndrome
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foxyt
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Post by foxyt on Oct 23, 2014 5:46:28 GMT
I've seen two older ponies start pergolide and both with in a few weeks have acted like youngsters and have a new lease of life. I have a sec A that we couldn't test for EMS but decided to treat for it anyway, he has lost 64kg so far, has lite chaff as his main food and also is like a different pony, very forward going and not footie any more. Getting they weight off of main has been the most important thing really. He's now happy doing what we want to do with him, and more importantly being he boss of the field!
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Post by priorities on Oct 23, 2014 6:03:30 GMT
Surely the priority should be giving the horse the medication required to be comfortable and go from there?
I don't know your circumstances but tbh, it sounds as though you are putting your desire to show above the health of your horse.
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Post by Gutted member NLI on Oct 23, 2014 6:08:46 GMT
Thanks for the advice so far - let me explain a little more. Sorry, I missed points that have been raised. The horse has been on metformin & freestep along with a strict weight loss diet. Feed is soaked hay, hi fi lite & speedy beet. Lameness has been on and off for last 3 months. We are currently sound on a surface and slightly lame on hard ground but at the end of the day there is still lameness there. Aura - if I could put the horse in foal I would but I'm on livery and it's not an option for me. Also the lameness is due to lami which has been brought on by the EMS/Cushings so yes needs the meds to treat the EMS/Cushings then the lami would subside and soundness would be regained. Hey presto if it was only that simple. I wouldn't just give the horse away, I would be looking at breeding loan (but i read pergolide hasnt been tested on brood mares? ) but would she need to be on it if she was just a broodmare?? Ideally I want to keep the horse and continue showing as I'm not a happy hacker kind of person, sorry but that's me and we are all different. Like I said if I could put in foal and keep I would but I can't. I've had a lot of contradicting advice and my head is spinning. Please don't think I'm not doing the best for the horse, I am, but I'm also trying to be realistic.
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Post by priorities on Oct 23, 2014 6:27:42 GMT
I haven't used freestep and the website isn't playing from my phone - does it contain vitamins and minerals? I appreciate you are under veterinary guidance but whilst reducing calories is important for weight loss, protein and vits/mins to repair damaged laminae is vital.
Are you thinking along the lines of pergolide being a banned substance therefore being unable to show? As her reading is only moderately high, you may find that she doesn't need to stay on pergolide - I know some horses who's cushings has come under control with small doses and then been successfully weaned off it. Maybe others just hope not to be blood tested??
Personally, I'd treat as necessary and see what happens. If she comes sound and can come back into work, that would help prevent a relapse. Whilst I agree to an extent with the above comment regarding not working if only sound with medication, with ems and cushings, work helps increase metabolism, build muscle and is of benefit to them provided it is within reason. Once medicated, see how she goes as you'd be far more likely to find a good home if she can work, even if limited, than as an a field ornament. Personally, I would only loan though to ensure her needs are met.
I agree with not putting her in foal - the risk of her getting lami either in foal or after foaling could result in you losing both or having an orphan foal.
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Post by Gutted member NLI on Oct 23, 2014 6:37:54 GMT
Priorities - thank you. Your advice is highly respected, people are judging me for wanting to show my horse. I'm sure it's not just me in this situation but I want to do what's right and yes I'm backing off the pergolide due to it being a banned substance.
I think I will go down the route of pergolide for a month as the vet had wanted to do initially, the thing that worried me was people saying once they are on it that's it they are on it for life. Like I said I've had so much conflicting advice I don't know whether I'm coming or going.
I don't need anyone giving me a pen bashing, I'm in pieces over this horse. I'm just looking for sound advice regarding the medication, treatment and what other people have done in this situation.
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Post by LinsopStud on Oct 23, 2014 6:38:40 GMT
Had this with my boy - horrific EMS coupled with lameness behind. Bute and metformin prescribed. Turned out he also had arthritis of hock. Steroid into hock not an option due to risk of induced lami because of the EMS. Still lame and not not losing weight despite bute and metformin. Tried FreeStep - weights starts to come off still lame. Switched him to turmeric and pernamax (green lipped mussel). Weight comes off, bute reduced, stays sound. He is 14 and shows county. Thought his county career was over but he will be back in the ring next season. Know it's not the same but maybe there's something under the EMS/lami that's causing the lameness? Freestep is a great product and worked for my boy when metformin did nothing. They use his before and after photos in their advertising so you may have seen him. Don't give up - I too was gutted his show career was over but I have 2 more so was kind of happy for him to be a fun horse and let me my mum ride him if he needed to be on drugs for rest of his life so long as he was not in pain. Cushings wasn't involved here but his insulin levels were 7 times what they should be so his EMS was very pronounced. He needs very careful management and always will but he is his old self even though it took 7 months
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Post by Gutted member NLI on Oct 23, 2014 6:59:14 GMT
Thanks Artylinz that's interesting. My horses insulin levels got up as high as 300 at her worst but when we tested in July they were back down to 36. They initially started out at 190 in January and have fluctuated between 160 & 300 all year until July So I'm doing something right. I just can't get my head round the cushings thing as she is only 9. My blacksmith has said there is an underlying problem aside from the EMS but he now says its the cushings. Am I just trying to pull the wool over my own eyes?? Do they test positive at 9years old??? The freestep people were adamant they didn't.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Oct 23, 2014 7:11:44 GMT
Cushings is usually diagnosed in horses over 15, but I don't think it means that it cannot be diagnosed in younger horses. You will do what is right for your horse, it's a difficult thing when there is so much information out there, and so much (very often conflicting) advice. Have never had one with cushings, but good luck.
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Post by LinsopStud on Oct 23, 2014 7:13:17 GMT
My boy was tested for Cushings but it was negative, I've not has any experience of it but didn't know it made them lame. Have you had her thermal imaged? When he had his diagnosis I had him done and the lady pinpointed the hock which a nerve block then confirmed but then she was also able to clearly see that he was not yet lami in front as no heat pattern. If you could monitor the front through that you would be able to see an improvement that you couldn't feel? Don't really have any more suggestions but please try not to give up, I almost did and I have my horse back, even on a strange level of natural supplements and neurotic management. Do really feel for you though it must be heartbreaking. My 6yo's show career has been ruined by veterinary negligence and it's devastating when they're so young they haven't even had a real chance
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Oct 23, 2014 7:19:57 GMT
Yes they can get Cushings as young horses, apparently it's not that unusual - I went to a lecture on the subject by our specialist medical vet with an interest in the subject. I think the whole insulin resistance/EMS/ Cushings scenario is one that is still far from being perfectly understood and we're still feeling our way with lots of research going on.
Like priorities, I'm a bit worried about the diet, which would seem to me lacking in essential micronutrients for repairing tissue and growing new feet. I had as a boarder some years ago a small pony who had had laminitis which was no longer active, and on owner's vet's advice fed him on slice of hay per day - he lived in my old sand school. He lost weight although he wasn't really fat anyway, but the hoof horn he grew on that diet was complete rubbish, very weak and flaky - obviously due to the hay being lacking in something vital. When I was allowed to add a balancer it changed completely, and the horn then grown was strong and tough. I inadvertently bought a broodmare I knew to have a history of laminitis years ago before insulin resistance etc was known about at all and after a long story I won't bore you with, had her on a diet of alfalfa/straw chaff and Top Spec AntiLam, a supplement designed specifically for laminitics. No grass, no hay, so very low indeed in sugar and starch, and she lived either in my old sand school or in what is known as the mudpatch and is exactly that so her diet was tightly controlled.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Oct 23, 2014 7:28:49 GMT
artylinz, Cushings makes them much more prone to getting laminitis. My little mare above didn't have Cushings, just EMS, and did not have metformin.
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Post by Gutted member NLI on Oct 23, 2014 7:30:38 GMT
Sarahp. This is where the conflicting advice comes in yet again, I was giving her top spec anti lam until recently when I was told to stop it immediately as it was full of sugar.
She is very healthy in every other way and grows good horn but she's only been off the anti lam 3 weeks.
Artylinz - who did you use for the thermal imaging. We don't live too far apart.
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Post by Sympathy on Oct 23, 2014 7:42:33 GMT
I too have the same experience. Top class show pony, who had bouts of laminitis in his past, but after a few weeks of lameness last year, was diagnosed with cushings at just 12 year old. Unfortunately my pony did not react well to Pergolide. Although it stabilised his insulin levels he became depressed. Look I know this sounds stupid, but he just was so unhappy. We can all give you our personal stories, and opinions, but you have to go with your heart. I too read all the stories and forums, some positive and some not, and my vet was amazingly positive, but everone's situation is different. Simple Systems feeds were a great help to me, and if you call their feedline they will advise a suitable diet. I would try and manage the insulin if at all possible without pergolide. I wish you all the luck, and my heart goes out to you xx
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Oct 23, 2014 8:29:34 GMT
I'm amazed! I'd confirm that with TS, they have a very good helpline and a reputation for quality feed so I'm sure they wouldn't make a balancer specifically for laminitics that contained sugar. It's always worth doing your own research to confirm stuff like that rather than rely on the word on the street. Feed ingredients can be checked on the white bag sewn into the seams of the bag, not sure if the same holds for balancers and supplements, they may come under different regulations.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Oct 23, 2014 8:33:58 GMT
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Post by Gutted member nli on Oct 23, 2014 9:39:19 GMT
Sarahp - I thought that too and went onto TS after speaking with their helpline.
I'm going to try it for a month and go from there I think.
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Post by LinsopStud on Oct 23, 2014 10:16:29 GMT
I use Helen Barnard, she's brilliant and will travel all over Yorkshire. She has a Facebook page called Helen Barnard Thermal Imaging. I find it really useful I have all my boys scanned regularly. Obviously I wouldn't use it to replace veterinary advice but it's excellent for monitoring progress of injuries or conditions as it picks up changes you wouldn't feel. Tell her Lindsey with Ollie sent you
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Post by LinsopStud on Oct 23, 2014 10:20:49 GMT
Sarah - didn't know that but I don't know very much about Cushings having no experience of it. My chap is off the metformin and now the weight is off am managing the EMS through diet - soaked hay etc. he is also on the FreeStep Antilam which is the cheaper/maintenance supplement. So far so good, am hoping I can keep him going for a bit longer! He was only 13 when all this was diagnosed.
Really interesting hearing everyone's experiences.
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Post by fanfarefan on Oct 23, 2014 10:33:31 GMT
Its a very vicious circle , with EMS you need to work them to reduce the insulin levels , but with the Cushings and laminitis it is nigh on impossible at the start !!!!! we have been in this situation many times with my sons pony ,from personal experience the only way to get the ACTH levels down is to put them on Pergolide , this will in turn start to sort out the laminitis , but what you also have to bere in mind is that with lami the lameness comes from the velcro attatchments in the hoof wall coming detatched , this in itself has a healing period of at least 6 weeks , so if you start work before they have had time to heal , you are just damaging them again, gentle in hand walking on a sand surface once level will help as a start , and after the 6 weeks or so if sound then progressing under vet advice would be the way to go ,,,,, its by no means a death sentence , our pony was 12 yrs when diagnosed , and is 19yrs now , and is showing at county level, we have our ups and downs, but we deal with it , she doesnt do alot of travelling , so as to keep the stress levels down,,, (the Piturity gland is linked to the adrenal gland , so stress doesnt help) every horse is an individual ,so what works for one wont work for another,,,,, the feeding advice above is sound , also to add , no apples or carrots !!!!!! I personally wouldnt breed from her as yet its not proven whether its hereditery, and if for instance you did put her in foal , and she went down with laminitis , you would be in a difficult situation of medicating with aher carrying a foal ,,,,i know its a lot to take in , but my advice would be to get her on the Pergolide asap , see how she gets on , and make any decisions on her future in a few months ,good luck sx
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dis
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Post by dis on Oct 23, 2014 19:04:36 GMT
What is actually in the ts antilam? Can't find it on the website? I know a lot of ts contains molasses which id avoid if I were you. soaking and rinsing hay in clean water, a plain fibre feed such as fastfibre to put minerals and vits in, plus a good protein source like linseed meal would be my starting point plus exercise as much as possible , once acute lami is resolved of course. Plus the peroglide to get things under control before long term damage is done.
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Post by Philippa on Oct 23, 2014 19:49:26 GMT
AntiLam should be fed on its own with forage. The forage can be in the form of late-cut hay and/or unmolassed chops e.g. TopChop Lite, or controlled grazing, or a combination of these, depending on the individual circumstances.
For example, we would recommend that an overweight 12hh pony, on box-rest because of laminitis should receive 125gms of AntiLam plus 1kg of TopChop Lite twice a day. In addition, 2kg (1 flap) of late-cut meadow hay that has been soaked for about 12 hours in ample fresh, cool, clean water, should be fed daily.
Once horses and ponies have recovered from laminitis, they can stay on AntiLam permanently. However if extra condition is needed Comprehensive Feed Balancer is a very safe product to use. If extra condition is not needed we recommend that horses and ponies stay on AntiLam for at least a year but after that they can be fed Lite Feed Balancer provided they are not obese.
TopSpec AntiLam contains the following features: -
The level of biotin (15mg/500kg horse/day) that is scientifically proven to improve hoof quality, plus the levels of methionine, cysteine, lysine, calcium, zinc, copper, iodine, and vitamin A known to improve the efficiency of biotin alone. Chelated sources of copper and zinc are included in the formulation. Certain of these nutrients also promote supple skin and a shiny coat. High levels of a pure, protected yeast to help maintain near-neutral (normal and healthy) conditions in the hindgut.* Additional MOS (mannan oligosaccharides). ** A top spec broad-spectrum supplement, vital for horses and ponies on a restricted diet. Generous levels of anti-oxidants including vitamins A, C and E plus selenium to neutralise the excess free-radicals that have been increased by stress. A highly digestible, high-fibre ‘supplement carrier’ to stimulate the fibre-digesting bacteria in the hindgut. A “Non-Heating” formula, because it is formulated without cereal grains, is very low in sugar and starch, but high in fibre. These features are backed up by the highly-praised TopSpec Laminitis Helpline 01845 565030.
Mode of action of yeast products
*Fibre-digesting bacteria (‘good’) thrive in the hindgut in a near-neutral environment (pH 6.8). If there is an overflow of sugar/starch into the hindgut (e.g. from sugars/fructans in grass or from starch in cereals), the sugar and starch digesting bacteria (‘bad in excess’) multiply, releasing lactic acid and increasing the acidity of the environment (pH 5.8- 6.5). This increased acidity makes the hindgut wall more permeable (‘leaky’) and research has shown that ‘laminitis trigger factors’ can escape into the bloodstream.
Pure, protected yeast can help to maintain a near-neutral environment by scavenging oxygen and so influencing the microbial balance of the hindgut in favour of fibre-digesting bacteria.
TopSpec nutritionists also recommend a high-fibre, low sugar/starch total diet to optimise the environment in the hindgut.
**MOS (mannan oligosaccharides) bond with undesirable bacteria, removing them from the gut, leaving the beneficial, fibre-digesting bacteria free to multiply.
Ref. Work carried out by Dr C. Pollitt BVSc, PhD (University of Queensland), Dr D. Cuddeford BSc (Hons), PhD (University of Edinburgh) and others.
AntiLam is available in convenient 7.5kg plastic tubs (30 days supply for a 250kg pony), or economic 20kg sacks (40 days supply for a 500kg horse).
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dis
Junior Member
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Post by dis on Oct 23, 2014 20:29:39 GMT
Yes but what are the actual ingredients and mineral and vitamin content of the ts?
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Post by Philippa on Oct 24, 2014 7:09:44 GMT
Can only find this so far - TopSpec Anti Lam Pellets
"High fibre oat by product, grass meal, Linseed Expeller, vitamin mineral premix, unmolassed beet pulp, cane molasses, calcium carbonate, dicalcium phosphate, wheatfeed, sodium chloride, magnesium oxide"
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Oct 24, 2014 7:40:16 GMT
Yes, molasses in there but well down the list of ingredients which are of course in order of amount included so very little, less than the vit/min premix and I expect in for manufacturing reasons - I'd be very interested to know the exact sugar % if anyone knows, anyone asked TS? Hardly the same as most mixes and of course AntiLam is fed in small quantities so the actual amount of sugar would be minute.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Oct 24, 2014 7:40:28 GMT
Yes, molasses in there but well down the list of ingredients which are of course in order of amount included so very little, less than the vit/min premix and I expect in for manufacturing reasons - I'd be very interested to know the exact sugar % if anyone knows, anyone asked TS? Hardly the same as most mixes and of course AntiLam is fed in small quantities so the actual amount of sugar would be minute.
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Post by kitty123 on Oct 24, 2014 11:51:44 GMT
We are experiencing a similar situation at the moment. Our 9 year old has been diagnosed with EMS for the past three years. For quite awhile we managed him without Metformin but last year (Oct) he suffered a bout of lami again. Since he has been on medication and managed with diet. Last week he became lame again. Tested for Early onset Cushings but markers were within normal limits. We accepted that it was unlikely that we would show him at top level again somewhile ago. It seems despite a long term consistent plan a ponies physiology coupled with changing environmental factors mean you can never have any guarentees keeping them sound. On a happier note the twenty six year old was diagnosed with Cushings in the summer, albeit with low markers but with Pergolide is a different horse. Persevere with any signs od depression, they may go after a couple of weeks.
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Post by catkin on Oct 24, 2014 20:12:27 GMT
I really need to study this. I have just had my first pony diagnosed with cushings. A score of 60 ish apparently. I could keep him sound but with v. v little grass. I was feeding him ad lib poor quality hay (which didn't seem to effect him at all) but wanted him to be able to go out more (for his quality of life and rideability). hence the blood test. He is now on 1 prascend tablet a day and will be for about 3 months when apparently we will blood test again. I had a long and v confusing conversation with my vet. He was adamant I needed to cut down the hay - why when it caused no problems? But felt bit by bit the pony could have more grass (which he is). I believed it was the sugar I needed to cut out but the vet seemed much more concerned about protein. Any thoughts? p.s the pony is 20, lean and spritely!
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