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Post by 2connies on Nov 9, 2014 22:31:36 GMT
What exactly is the ruling these days regarding showing clipped M&M ponies both in hand and ridden
Seems difficult to get a clear definition on this but I always thought that for showing clipped M&Ms in hand for instance was a no-no but ridden was acceptable.
Looking through the various Breed Soc recommendations,I have only been able to find the BCPS who state clearly state that clipped ponies should not be shown in hand.THe others seem to fudge the issue.
Any help on this much appreciated especially from judges.
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Post by comanchediva on Nov 10, 2014 5:58:20 GMT
If you've clipped a pony who's 4 or over to make him comfortable for his ridden work then why would he not be able to be shown in hand all winter? Personally I don't understand why there should be a rule for ridden and a different rule for in hand.
The FPS rule states "the clipping of winter coats on working ponies whilst not encouraged for showing is not debarred".
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Post by Philippa on Nov 10, 2014 7:13:33 GMT
WPCS ruling:-
9.7. Trimming for Shows with effect from 1st January 2014, the Society will be taking action against those not strictly adhering to the Judging & Showing Handbook Rule,
9.7.1. The Welsh Breeds are a Native Breed and too much trimming and pulling detracts from their native characteristics. Pure bred animals registered in Sections A, B, C, D must be shown in as natural a state as possible, manes and tails must not be plaited with the exception of an optional single plait behind the ear.
9.7.2. Animals, 3 years old and under including foals must not be body clipped for showing purposes. Long hair under the jawline and those protruding from the ears may be trimmed off leaving as natural a line as possible. The whiskers around the muzzle may be trimmed.
9.7.3. Animals 4 years old or over, which have been clipped for winter activities can be shown. Judges must take special note of this. Legs must not be clipped. Long hair under the jawline and those protruding from the ears may be trimmed off leaving as natural a line as possible. The whiskers around the muzzle may be trimmed.
9.7.4. Animals, 3 years old and under are not eligible to be entered into Society sales if body clipped.
9.7.5. Medals will not be awarded to clipped animals (3yrs & under) and the Society can revoke an award if an animal is later found to have been clipped.
9.7.6. Fresh clipping for spring shows is not permissible.
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mu
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Post by mu on Nov 10, 2014 8:13:37 GMT
Exmoors aren't allowed to be shown in hand if body clipped.
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Post by 2connies on Nov 10, 2014 19:23:55 GMT
If you've clipped a pony who's 4 or over to make him comfortable for his ridden work then why would he not be able to be shown in hand all winter? Personally I don't understand why there should be a rule for ridden and a different rule for in hand. The FPS rule states "the clipping of winter coats on working ponies whilst not encouraged for showing is not debarred". I agree with you but i think even panel judges seem to have differing opinions... BCPS seem clear on it but not all societies rules refer to clipped in hand ponies for some reason.
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Post by 2connies on Nov 10, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
WPCS ruling:- 9.7. Trimming for Shows with effect from 1st January 2014, the Society will be taking action against those not strictly adhering to the Judging & Showing Handbook Rule, 9.7.1. The Welsh Breeds are a Native Breed and too much trimming and pulling detracts from their native characteristics. Pure bred animals registered in Sections A, B, C, D must be shown in as natural a state as possible, manes and tails must not be plaited with the exception of an optional single plait behind the ear. 9.7.2. Animals, 3 years old and under including foals must not be body clipped for showing purposes. Long hair under the jawline and those protruding from the ears may be trimmed off leaving as natural a line as possible. The whiskers around the muzzle may be trimmed. 9.7.3. Animals 4 years old or over, which have been clipped for winter activities can be shown. Judges must take special note of this. Legs must not be clipped. Long hair under the jawline and those protruding from the ears may be trimmed off leaving as natural a line as possible. The whiskers around the muzzle may be trimmed. 9.7.4. Animals, 3 years old and under are not eligible to be entered into Society sales if body clipped. 9.7.5. Medals will not be awarded to clipped animals (3yrs & under) and the Society can revoke an award if an animal is later found to have been clipped. 9.7.6. Fresh clipping for spring shows is not permissible. Thank you for posting that extract Philppa. Rule 9.7.3 seems relevant here and since no differential is stated between in hand and ridden classes for clipped ponies,I assume it's OK to shoe in hand.Saying that,I still think we would risk being put down.......will have to clip the D mare anyway for ridden and may 'test the water' in hand.
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Post by 2connies on Nov 10, 2014 19:33:19 GMT
Exmoors aren't allowed to be shown in hand if body clipped. Thank you,that's clear enough anyway. Saying that,I watched an in hand small breeds GlynnGreenwood class very recently and it wad won by a clipped Shetland so maybe they have a different ruling!
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Post by catkin on Nov 11, 2014 11:58:09 GMT
also different judges have different opinions regardless of the rule book. I know several do not like clipped lead reins, for example.
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Post by chestnutandfourwhites on Nov 11, 2014 12:29:52 GMT
Sometimes these rules really baffle me.native ponies can grow such a thick and heavy coat,to the point a lot can just sweat in a stable. To show in the winter with a native that may do unhand and ridden should not lead to being penalised.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Nov 11, 2014 12:31:17 GMT
Exmoors aren't allowed to be shown in hand if body clipped. Thank you,that's clear enough anyway. Saying that,I watched an in hand small breeds GlynnGreenwood class very recently and it wad won by a clipped Shetland so maybe they have a different ruling! To assist with clarification, the "Glyn Greenwood" as mentioned above is a sponsored Ponies Association(UK) Mountain & Moorland In-Hand series of very long standing, with the final held at the Summer Championships. The Championship is divided into Youngstock (1/2/3yo) and Adult (4 years and over). Usually, shows put on four classes - subdivided into Small & Large Breeds, but must offer at least two classes which can be divided at the discretion of the P(UK) Affiliated show. P(UK) states (General Rules & Regulations) . . . "Horses & Ponies must be trimmed and shown as set down by their relevant Breed Societies".Hope this helps.
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Post by tountmarastud on Nov 11, 2014 13:40:20 GMT
We showed a clipped Shetland in a Glyn Greenwood on Sunday but were 2nd - not sure if 2 Connies was referring to us. We clip our Shetland in October as he gets as hairy as a mammoth and very sweaty so it is done for his comfort as he is ridden all year round for fun. It does not look so good in in hand classes just after he is clipped as we only leave his legs and head on. We only did the Glyn Greenwood cos my son who has Aspergers Syndrome still loves showing his Shetland in hand (he is 18 so too big to ride him!). Sometimes people have reasons for doing things which may not immediately be apparent.
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Post by 2connies on Nov 11, 2014 18:40:02 GMT
Hi tountmarastud,I was referring to last Sunday's show but I stand corrected...I wasn't watching to closely and thought you won it!I only mentioned that in response the earlier Exmoor pony post.
Personally I have no problem whatsoever with showing clipped natives in hand..I don't think clipping detracts from the type,conformation or movement.
Carolinenelson above nails it of course when she points out that,ultimately.it's down to the individual Breed societies' own regulations and so.I suppose one must conform to these.
The only point I would make is that,on the above basis,we have a less than ideal situation where,in winter,some Native Breeds within the same class section eg small,medium or large etc,are allowed to show clipped in hand ponies whilst others are not! For instance,a quick glance at the rules would indicate that Connemara ponies may not be shown but New Forests would be OK.
Rather ironically,we delayed clipping our Connemara mare until after Sunday's show so we could show in hand then do the later ridden class but ended up second in hand to a clipped pony ( no grumbles btw as it was very nice Dales or Fell) then pulling out of the ridden because she was sweating up in the warm up and got all itchy twitchy! LOL
So,this week she gets the clip for better.... or worse!
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Post by Karen, garrettponies on Nov 12, 2014 8:50:54 GMT
I think although I could be barking up the wrong tree, when the rules were set for many societies, there wasn't the amount of winter showing that there is now. 15 years ago or more there were very few winter shows from October til March, so therefore clipping wouldn't have been as relevant as it is now with shows more or less weekly and I'm sure judges will understand ponies require clipping for welfare reasons and that many ponies will do an in hand as well as a ridden as an extra class to make turning out worthwhile. the rules are probably more relevant to young stock/foals at this time of year where an age isn't specified in the rules. Maybe the societies should look at changing their rules slightly to bring them more up to date to include winter showing? Some do but majority don't. Just a thought if that makes sense!!
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Post by Guestless on Nov 12, 2014 18:57:34 GMT
I've never been (knowingly) marked down inhand for showing a clipped Fell pony, although I was once placed 2nd and told it was because I had taken the pony's beard off. I was hunting that year so took the beard off a particularly sweaty pony, but I had total respect for the judge being so strict.....I usually don't touch legs or head.
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Post by 2connies on Nov 12, 2014 19:56:24 GMT
I think although I could be barking up the wrong tree, when the rules were set for many societies, there wasn't the amount of winter showing that there is now. 15 years ago or more there were very few winter shows from October til March, so therefore clipping wouldn't have been as relevant as it is now with shows more or less weekly and I'm sure judges will understand ponies require clipping for welfare reasons and that many ponies will do an in hand as well as a ridden as an extra class to make turning out worthwhile. the rules are probably more relevant to young stock/foals at this time of year where an age isn't specified in the rules. Maybe the societies should look at changing their rules slightly to bring them more up to date to include winter showing? Some do but majority don't. Just a thought if that makes sense!! It makes a lot of sense. I might write to BCPS suggesting they review their rules regarding clipped Connemaras in hand...we, like a lot of other people,enjoy doing an in hand and a ridden class during winter so it's a pity when some other breeds can yet Connies are excluded if they play by their Society's rules.I'll be doing so more in hope than expectation though!
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Post by 2connies on Nov 12, 2014 20:02:33 GMT
I've never been (knowingly) marked down inhand for showing a clipped Fell pony, although I was once placed 2nd and told it was because I had taken the pony's beard off. I was hunting that year so took the beard off a particularly sweaty pony, but I had total respect for the judge being so strict.....I usually don't touch legs or head.[/quote If I remember correctly, I think it could have been a clipped Fell who won our class the other day and I have no problems whatsoever with the result...it was a nice stamp and correct so no grumbles at all on that score.
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Post by mcnaughty on Nov 13, 2014 21:14:10 GMT
I posted exactly the same question in the members area! Couple of years ago I had very negative comments made by a judge for hunter clipping a welsh a. I have just given our current welsh a a bib clip and am showing affiliated next 2 weekends so will see! He got very hot and sweaty the last time daughter rode so had to made the decision to clip. Hopefully this very small bib clip will help with sweating but not upset the judges!!!!
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Post by waspblue on Nov 14, 2014 23:20:43 GMT
Surely the ponies welfare counts above all else and each circumstance is different, but I personally would rather see a well clipped pony that is comfortable and happy, rather than a very woolly pony whose fur is soaking wet and stuck together with sweat, which can then risk the poor pony getting chilled. I don't think it should matter one way or the other as clipping doesn't alter the animals conformation, just makes them more comfortable, which has got to be better for them at the end of the day.
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Post by 2connies on Nov 16, 2014 16:55:36 GMT
I could not agree more,waspblue....the Breed Societies should review this question imo. There was a time when winter shows were few and far between and perhaps the question of clipped natives was more relevant for the Societies ( and judges) but now winter showing is very popular so ponies' welfare and comfort should justify a re-assessment and clarification. I will make a start by approaching the BCPS.
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Post by mcnaughty on Nov 17, 2014 17:54:40 GMT
Just to clarify - seems that hunter clipping a leadrein is not good in a judge's eyes. You can however to this to a first ridden. Seems a bit silly to me as lots of ponies are shared by siblings.
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Post by hazeysunshine on Nov 18, 2014 19:54:31 GMT
I've been advised by a judge before that I didn't get placed ridden as my fell pony was clipped. Apparently this guy breeds natives so knows they shouldn't be clipped, his words not mine. Resulted in an eye roll when he wasn't looking.
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justliloldme
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Post by justliloldme on Nov 19, 2014 4:51:19 GMT
Clipping for welfare reasons, for ponies over 4 years, though leaving head and legs shouldnt be a issue, i know my boy who has a double layer coat and is unable to use it as i dont have a mountain for him to live on ....... would suffer working in winter or even showing in hand un clipped, legs shouldnt go below the natural line and in "hairies" heads should be left natural, mines progressing from a trace, to a blanket and will be a full body dec / jan, hes on livery so doesnt have the option of 24/7 turnout and is in moderate work, to me its a welfare issue having a sweaty, uncomfortable pony, dont agree with youngsters being clipped or just for how it looks.
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Post by 2connies on Nov 20, 2014 20:28:44 GMT
I've been advised by a judge before that I didn't get placed ridden as my fell pony was clipped. Apparently this guy breeds natives so knows they shouldn't be clipped, his words not mine. Resulted in an eye roll when he wasn't looking. It's a real pain tbh because to leave them unclipped virtually means that most native ponies are virtually precluded from winter shows due to sweating up...yet the various societies put winter shows on ! We have taken the plunge anyway and ( as naturally as posible if this is makes sense) clipped the Connemara and the Welsh Cob so if it costs us a place or two in the line- up,so be it.
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