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Post by shaken not stirred on Jan 27, 2015 0:40:54 GMT
Just wondered what people thought of the marking system when we compete I personally don't like it because for I don't really think it gives me a good indication on why I was placed and would prefer feedback from a judge Of course I am talking about competing at a lower level not Hoys or anything like that
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Post by abigail on Jan 27, 2015 6:25:24 GMT
I think having 50/50 is a large scale but when you get judges that use that range it works ! When they try and keep everything say high 30s to 40s it's not many marks to play with say in a class of 40 !! When you think that dressage is only out of 10 ,5 being sufficient, which if we got half of the total we would think it is low, showing classes have a lot of marks and I guess its hard to find that happy medium and knowing how many to deduct for different problems
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Post by Philippa on Jan 27, 2015 6:27:51 GMT
So if your not talking about HOYS level you must just have a gripe with 'the judges opinion'. Showing is all about one persons opinion on the day. If it's not for you then don't do it. Or you could simply ask the judge why you've been placed where you have???
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Post by fanfarefan on Jan 27, 2015 7:05:06 GMT
But a marks sheet is feed back from the judge
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Jan 27, 2015 7:58:51 GMT
Dressage marking is different altogether, marks may be out of 10, but that's for each separate movement of which there might be up to 18 or so, and there are collective marks too for wider but carefully defined qualities too which are doubled. It all makes showing judging very much of a "blunt instrument" in comparison, with one mark having to cover very many qualities. And in dressage a comment can be given for each movement, then judges general comments at the end. It's all written and designed to educate the rider on where they have room for improvement, and to encourage them to school their animals correctly as they work up the grades.
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Post by shaken not stirred on Jan 27, 2015 11:24:53 GMT
So if your not talking about HOYS level you must just have a gripe with 'the judges opinion'. Showing is all about one persons opinion on the day. If it's not for you then don't do it. Or you could simply ask the judge why you've been placed where you have??? I do not have a gripe with any judges, why is it when some one ask a question in good faith it is automatically assumed they have a gripe. If I had one, I would ask the judge in a nice way, I just wondered what other peoples thought were
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Post by Philippa on Jan 27, 2015 11:28:35 GMT
So in that case I don't get your point? You don't like the way judges judge but your not talking about HOYS level which is judgged on a points system so what then are you talking about??? Sorry you haven't made it clear. I was under the impression that it was the judges opinion if it wasn't being marked on points??
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Post by ponymum on Jan 27, 2015 11:40:41 GMT
There are flaws in both ways ....as in the whole of this sport we love , it is the judges opinion (which doesnt always coroborate with our opinion of our animals!)
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Post by shaken not stirred on Jan 27, 2015 11:55:20 GMT
There are flaws in both ways ....as in the whole of this sport we love , it is the judges opinion (which doesnt always coroborate with our opinion of our animals!) Thank you Ponymum for your nice response I have a daughter who is disabled and is doing the veterans classes and I have been trying to help her understand the marking system and so my question was just pure and simple
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Post by ponymum on Jan 27, 2015 12:10:21 GMT
I think at the higher level "some" judges use the marks to get the result they want , which is why I think it is IMPERATIVE that judges should not confer with each other until after the marks have been recorded and the rosettes are being given out....
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Post by fanfarefan on Jan 27, 2015 14:23:39 GMT
obviously i dont know the extent of your daughters disabilities,,, if you have query regarding your daughters riding mark , then that is going to be something that only you can discuss with the judge , however , hard as it may seem she is going to be competing in open classes ,,,, explaining the marks also will be very individual to you and your daughter,,,, if you feel that your daughter is being unfairly marked down , then maybe you could ask on entry for slight dispensation ,,,, but im sure that you both want to play on a level playing field,,,, it is unfortunately very dog eat dog in the show ring ,and is one individuals opinion regardless , as to whether its on a score sheet or not ,,, but i wish you all the best
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Post by Philippa on Jan 27, 2015 15:23:23 GMT
There are flaws in both ways ....as in the whole of this sport we love , it is the judges opinion (which doesnt always coroborate with our opinion of our animals!) Thank you Ponymum for your nice response I have a daughter who is disabled and is doing the veterans classes and I have been trying to help her understand the marking system and so my question was just pure and simple Hmmm didn't I say that in a round about way!!!!!
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Post by janetbushell on Jan 27, 2015 16:15:31 GMT
shaken not stirred - look at the marks sheet & take note of what the heading for each column says - that indicates what the judge is giving the mark for. There is some difference for veteran animals than in standard showing classes. The rule book for the society will also help you as they often have a section relating to "judging of classes". For SSADL rules 21 to 25 may be particularly relevant & also rule 26 which explains the marks system
Then look at how the mark your animal was given relates to those marks given to other animals - are they much higher, similar, much lower etc? This should help you understand why you were placed in the position in the class.
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Post by Marking on Jan 28, 2015 23:02:00 GMT
I don't envy you trying to explain marks to your daughter. Personally I like to see marks to give an me an idea of where we came but there is no real set criteria for the marks that are given but general from a list of marks you have to have watched every pony like a hawk, match all the numbers up and been inside the judges head to have understanding of the marks. You can only surmise why you got that particular mark as its still the judges opinion so I do see an argument for feedback. Feedback again though is opinion based and more a question of that judges likes and dislikes and it doesn't mean the next judge will share that opinion. That is not an aspersion on anyone's judging, just don't be put off your pony if not one persons type. I have often said it would be great if judges wrote a critique for their top three like in dog showing but that would be almost impossible in a horse ring. Go out, have fun and consider opinions from inside and outside the ring.
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Post by m1hht on Jan 29, 2015 9:33:53 GMT
This is why we all need to go to our area committee meetings as we had to vote on 50/50 or 60/40.
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Post by Wondering This on Jan 29, 2015 22:54:18 GMT
I would love for the judges to have to show the marks to the audience. So when something is really tense in show, anticipates gallop, and then jockey can't stop it at the end, and the judge want to give 47/50 for ride, hopefully judges will be embarrassed to communicate a ridiculously facey high score to everyone.
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Post by cayo on Jan 31, 2015 9:07:49 GMT
i would love to see an open marking system similar to ice skating lol cant see it happening but a few words against the mark wouldnt be too difficult would it thus quickly justifying a particularly low or high mark and giving competitors a better idea of what they did wrong or right for that matter .
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Post by alien on Feb 1, 2015 9:08:26 GMT
I remember going to a show some years ago (8 ish) where the ride and conformation marks were put up on a board after each one . It was at the David Broome centre, and I think it was a qualifier. And it worked really well. I think it was a trial thing, 2 judges, and marking was good. The pony went from ride to conformation, and both marks were given at same time (so without knowledge of what other judge had awarded) It was a large class, there were no hold ups, and ran very smoothly. But the system was never taken up. But made it much more interesting for spectators.
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Post by gillwales on Feb 1, 2015 9:22:39 GMT
There are not many places that would have the facilities to display marks, however I do think it is a good idea. Please remember that showing is not dressage and marks are not given out as a standard therefore you cannot see if you are improving, if that is what you want please compete at dressage and not showing. We are asked in a showing class to place the animals before us in an order from first to last, the marking system was introduced to prevent biased judging, I for one could always explain why I gave each mark, we are not however asked to make comments which would proberly help a great deal but slow up judging. You can't have it all ways.
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Feb 1, 2015 10:09:39 GMT
One reason I prefer to compete at dressage gw. My main love is the breeding, and for me showing has come in to show off the results of that or my breeding stock rather than as a stand alone preference. I would never buy one in just to show it.
I'm not knocking showing, each to their own!
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Post by chloesmum on Feb 1, 2015 10:35:12 GMT
The displayed ride marks is what was adopted for the Heritage finals at Olympia but I am not sure it tells you anything, as you still see marked differences between the 2 judges sometimes. Conformation marks are not displayed and in some ways I agree with this. If a judge does not like your type it Can be worryng to have a very low mark displayed for all to see - there might not be anything wrong with the pony, just not their type but others watching might assume there is| I remember once at PUK South marks in the HOYS classes were communicated and comments made by the judge but I am sure for some it was embarrassing to have their pony discussed in an open arena at the end of the day it is subjective and always will be however their are many occassions I would love a judge to explain their reasoning on a ride mark, a couple of times last season I seriously thought the steward must have put the wrong mark down!
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Feb 1, 2015 10:57:42 GMT
Surely marks for the actual conformation marks should not vary much for an individual pony - correct conformation is largely a question of mechanics suitable for movement and soundness and is common to all breeds. Breed type and breed movement of course is a different matter where judges preferences do come into it.
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Post by chloesmum on Feb 1, 2015 12:35:13 GMT
Surely indeed Sarah! However we have all been in that position where one week we achieve 48 and the next 28! and no pony hadn't lost a leg; thrown a splint; lost - gained weight inbetween just difference of opinion! I guess that is how you learn who to go under and who not to waste your money on!
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Post by fanfarefan on Feb 1, 2015 13:25:41 GMT
marking system or not you are always going to be judged according to someones opinion, they will always have a preference to colour , type , confirmation ,way of going , as said above you do have to take note of who does and doesnt like your particular type of animal,,,,,, ive got a coloured mini horse , who competes in open in hand classes ,, there are some judges who like him , and others who just wont look at mini's , so i dont waste my money to go under them ,,,,, that doesnt mean my horse is any different from one week to the next ,,, its down to personal opinion
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Post by m1hht on Feb 2, 2015 16:03:27 GMT
Unfortunately marking is down to a judges' personnel preference. Whether we like or agree with it is another can or worms lol. I personally wouldn't like to see open displaying of marks for all classes, but again that is own my opinion that isn't something I would like and could be disheartening for some younger competitors in the ring
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