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Post by Horsecrazy01 on Jun 11, 2015 16:00:28 GMT
As above title- why is this the case with ‘some’ judges? ...That for most of the time it is the face riding the pony rather than the actual pony that gets placed on merit
I’m sorry to say that already this year I’m seeing a lot of this going on- where a pony may not have given a great ride or may even have an obvious confirmation fault (dishing or a splint for example) coming above an ‘unknown’ rider whose show was faultless?
It’s getting to the point where you can almost predict who is going to win- regardless of what pony they are sat on just purely on who they are.
I think some of these judging panels need to bring in a stricter process, to give everyone a fairer chance? I.e judges assessing judges on the day of the placing’s, I know something like this exists for dog showing?
Indefinitely a ruling should be brought in stipulating that if you are judging a hoys qualifier that coming season then cannot compete in the ring for that section. I.e if you’re judging the show hunters you cannot compete in a hoys qualifier – show hunter class during that same year.
This will limit the ‘you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours’ – which we all know happens and will continue to happen if nobody challenges it.
I just don’t know how some judges can sleep at night knowing full well they’ve placed a pony/horse clearly on the rider and not the best animal in front of them on the day?
Surely if you are sending a pony/horse to the final under your name you’d want it to have a good chance and therefore send only in your eyes and expertise the best quality animal.
And this post is not a dig at all judges as they aren’t all like this, hats off to the existing fair ones that are out there- you can normally tell just by the class entries when you have a fair judge as we all travel for them- the facey ones do tend to have less- so surely it is in the show organisers best interest to pick a judge that people will travel far and wide for?
I appreciate this is probably deemed as a moan but it is so frustrating to watch- I just wish judges would take into consideration the time and money that us home producers put in, just get to a show and the same old person wins under them not matter what pony/horse they are sat on- we also put a lot of effort into ring craft, having lessons and schooling every night after work in all weathers- just like the known people do!
Its also a false economy as these animals that have qualified with a known rider on board are then sold on for silly money- most likely to a home produced person – and then they never qualify again or struggle to- so what does that say? Again it’s on who was riding it not giving a true reflection of the worth or value of the pony!
People travel far and wide to view the BEST ponies in the world at hoys so this is what we should be watching in the ring on the day
I could go into the impact its having on the breeds- people are paying to breed off these show winning stallions/mares because they have done so well in the show ring with a known face but may have confirmations faults or not even be true to type of the breed because all these considerations have been over looked because a certain person was sat on it
I would like people to know this is a genuine post and a friendly discussion- it is not a dig at any certain animal or judge and I like would welcome other people’s opinions on this?
What is the answer? Do we all pay a face to sit on board so everyone has a fair shot? I don’t know?
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Post by louisegelly on Jun 11, 2015 18:37:34 GMT
Hit the nail on the head!!
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Post by judyh on Jun 11, 2015 19:20:37 GMT
Years ago at the BSPS Champs a friend had a lead rein pony with a producer.. The producer lead the pony till the end of the show. He then handed the pony to my friend to wait in the line and disappeared into another ring. The pony wasn't pulled in near the top ( can't remember where) the judge , when he realised his mistake apologised to her with the words " Sorry I was looking for .........".
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Post by bubbles1822 on Jun 11, 2015 19:31:57 GMT
Totally agree!! I went to hoys last yer an for a fact I know there are better ponies on the circuit and was disappointed watching the classes I did because they aren't a true reflection of the ponies out there.
I was joking the other day saying I should brig my autograph book showing! Haha
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Post by ThisletonStud on Jun 11, 2015 20:43:42 GMT
Well said! i don't think there's anything more annoying than seeing a stunning animal with faultless conformation being handled by a home pro, being placed below a face with an animal that isn't as half as much as the home pros. And does anyone else get bored of seeing the same horses winning week after week after week? You may say that a quality horse will win each time it's out, but we all know it's who's on top or on the end lol. I don't think anything will ever change, we will be stuck with this forever. So suck it up and let's enjoy our hobby
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Post by pipandwill on Jun 11, 2015 21:18:00 GMT
Agree totally, but it will never change, probably get alot of stick for saying this but for as long as the societies and the people involved in them, the judges, officials or whoever have got their 'friends' producing, no amount of protesting from us unknown competitors will change that. Its ashame, especially this year I have noticed that people who have been home produced for year have got fed up and sent their horses to producers, im not slating producers because they are their tp do a job and provide a service and make a living, its just a shame that so many people get disheartened.
Makes me laugh a lot though, when a pony who has been produced by whoever, and regularly got 40+ for conf marks, then gets sold to a home producer, and then gets 20s for conf marks. It will always be the same, but not much we can do!
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Post by waspblue on Jun 11, 2015 23:09:01 GMT
Saw a few winners at Midland Counties last weekend that were already predicted to me by someone the week before!!!! Think my friend is turning into Mystic Meg lol, just wish she'd predict the Lottery numbers for me for a week or two ha ha...... Sadly nowhere near as predictable as some judging.....
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Post by gilbertgrape on Jun 11, 2015 23:10:31 GMT
Producers often have a stable full of clients horses. They cannot all be winners yet as you say the human gets judged not the horse/pony. Happens in hand as well as ridden.
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Post by ponymad79 on Jun 12, 2015 6:05:05 GMT
Many years ago we were in a horse class at puk at Peterbourough and had been pulled 3rd my husband got talking to another well known producer who was stood beside us he explained we were the best in the class but he said to my husband you won't win as it is all politics and he was right . Sadly it is still the same today having said that we have had great success and still enjoy our showing we must be mad lol
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Post by Horsecrazy01 on Jun 12, 2015 9:33:13 GMT
Its such a shame, I appreciate how much work the producers put in and I have to admit some of the ponies they ride are out of this world and do deserve the placings.
But some do push the boat out- sit on anything- that with a home producer wouldn't be anymore than riding club standard and then get the golden ticket on it purely knowing they got it because of who they are and who was judging.
Shows need to start realising which judges get the higher entry numbers- its beneficial for them in sub-staining the running of the show and benefiting for us as we all have a fairer shot.
I think most of us can agree- we would all make the effort to travel for the fairer judges over the more faceier ones where we can predict the winner! Surely hoys only want the best examples of the breed competing at their show anyway, why are we allowing for the standard there to be dropped? Its quite saddening to see.
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Post by Very true on Jun 12, 2015 10:08:31 GMT
A couple of weeks ago we watched the amateur class and noticed a girl that does very well on her own Connie was sat on another girls Connie , it was a massive class and she was pulled second and went on to win the class. The girl who owns the pony then went into the juniors and again it was a massive class, she was pulled very last off the go round and wasn't placed. How can the judges like it enough to win the first class and then pull it bottom in the second class? Fair enough it might not have gone as well but it's not lost a leg in between the two classes !!
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three counties judging
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Post by three counties judging on Jun 12, 2015 10:14:06 GMT
Try comparing the judge who judged the olympia at suffolk and the hoys today at three counties and see who got the tickets makes interesting especially when you go back over the last 2to 3 years
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Post by ponymum on Jun 12, 2015 10:55:33 GMT
Sad fact of showing! It doesnt matter how good your pony is (we have a very good one but know we are peeing in the wind) it goes down to facey judging, the only way to get your ticket is to write a list of all the producers in your class , tick them off as they qualify then get your pony out , you should pick a ticket up then (hopefully) sadly I am a single mum , doing it on a shoestring and wanting a life too , so will no longer use all my holidays chasing tickets to be pulled down the line to a sub standard pony because of its rider and who is stood behind stripping it...Good luck to all!!
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Post by WelshALover on Jun 12, 2015 13:20:58 GMT
Its all us home producers that make up the numbers in these classes and drive the entries for the show organisers to make the show a success!
If it was purely down to producers they'd probably be less than 10 in each class after all... Compared to a good class of 40!
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Post by fanfarefan on Jun 12, 2015 13:41:54 GMT
perhaps the riders all ought to wear Burkhas , and then the judge cant see the face ?!!!!
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Post by joules on Jun 12, 2015 13:45:16 GMT
I agree with all of the comets that have been made, I know that we are getting very disheartened with the blatant facey judging,my husband does not come to many shows, but always supports the grandchildren when they have been lucky enough to go to HOYS, the last time we were there his comment was, these can not be the best in the country surely, we love our hobby it is a way of life for us, just a pity the way showing is going, we show on a shoestring, money talks I'm afraid.
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Post by janetbushell on Jun 12, 2015 13:50:58 GMT
A couple of weeks ago we watched the amateur class and noticed a girl that does very well on her own Connie was sat on another girls Connie , it was a massive class and she was pulled second and went on to win the class. The girl who owns the pony then went into the juniors and again it was a massive class, she was pulled very last off the go round and wasn't placed. How can the judges like it enough to win the first class and then pull it bottom in the second class? Fair enough it might not have gone as well but it's not lost a leg in between the two classes !! I am sure this was the PUK RIHS Amateur/Intermediate/Junior qualifier that I judged - I am happy to explain my judging processes on the day as follows: Firstly only TEN animals were called in from the go round & the others asked to line up in any order (in all the classes) The fell pony drawn top after the go round very sadly had a couple of blips in its show - I loved the pony and would have been very happy for it to stay top & my co judge was equally disappointed, but that is showing. The Connemara drawn second which we both also liked did an excellent show, was also liked by my co judge for conformation & type & so moved up to win. The other placings also altered from the pull in, often due to disappointing shows, in part due to the wet, muddy & quite slippery conditions. The Intermediate section was also a very quality class, with some of the same animals & some different. When awarding the rosettes the rider who won the first class was second on a different Connemara. In the Junior large breeds there was again a mixture with some animals having also been in one of the previous classes, however several did not shine in the go round (maybe the ground/weather conditions, maybe they are "one class" ponies?) This class again only had half called in after the go round & the others lined up in any order. In the championship the winning Connemara from the Amateur class was rather disappointing & did not feature, neither did the second placed Connemara who the winning Amateur rider had chosen to compete. I am sorry you have implied that my co judge & myself judged faces, but I can assure you we did not, we judged ponies - how they were put together & how they performed, on that day against the others in their classes. I don't normally bother with responses to this type of thread but i do feel "very true" that your observations are mistaken and need correcting.
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Post by Miss Judge on Jun 12, 2015 14:21:39 GMT
I am a judge and I also have ponies on the circuit. I have experienced blatant 'favours' and luckily they are in the minority and also very hard to prove even if the results were predicted. However, there are mostly 2 judges doing major qualifiers and it is surely rare that they are both singing off the same "favour" hymn sheet. I am not sure how the societies are to blame because there is never hard and fast evidenc but like you, I just avoid the judge I "think" is helping out a competitor and if you all do this eventually the said judge won't have anyone to judge except their "friends"
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Post by WelshALover on Jun 12, 2015 15:06:36 GMT
Couldn't agree more with the above Miss Judge and thankfully you agree it isn't fair. Hopefully the show organisers will start to take note upon receiving low entries under 'certain' judges.
Its not hard to see if you start to look back at the results - the same riders year on year, riding completely different horses/ponies, of completely different types, doing completely different shows and obviously having completely different confirmation strengths/weaknesses yet still winning? Not sure how a judge would justify each placing of their favored handler/rider if someone delved into it a little further.
Surely the judging panels could do something to help?
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Post by same old/same old on Jun 12, 2015 15:22:44 GMT
What can be predicted every year is that there will be at least one of these threads running throughout the season - sometimes sour grapes and I am sure sometimes a genuine grievance. However I am really not sure what can be done - some good suggestions re not judging and competing in the same class throughout the year but what about judges who are breeders who may not be doing the ridden classes but certainly again 'favours' can be done. How interesting that nearly every poster (including me) appears as a guest - why? Because we are all afraid of the 'repercussions' and don't want to be 'black listed' by judges. Of course we all know it happens, my biggest frustration like the original poster is when producers second and third streams start coming out to qualify, or owners 'hire' a face just to qualify, is it getting worse? Last year I became more frustrated than ever, with the prediction lists, and the blatant favours. So this season I have stuck to my guns and there are some judges I will not go under no matter where they are judging - and it has made me enjoy the season more (although names have been added!) It is also frustrating when people do put their heads above the parapet and formally complain and nothing changes, I can think of a judge who has been the question of two sets of complaints, one resulting in a qualifying ticket being taken away but still they are appearing every year as a qualifying judge. Again annoying to miss a show I might want to do but I refuse to pay money to be judged by someone who will not be fair. However there is another side - predictions as have been said before are like 'form' you learn who likes and dislikes your horse and people will obviously follow a judge who does like their horse - stupid not to! I also agree with Miss Judge - 2 judges make it tougher, although often that can throw up a 'random' win which neither judge really wanted to win! I don't have an answer but it does make me feel uncomfortable when a respected judge feels they have to come on a public forum and 'justify' their judging. I do believe MOST judges are fair, they give up their time and knowledge to keep the sport going we have to accept their decisions and learn from that although I do often wish there was somewhere where 'dubious' judging can be challenged, it is hard to prove as at the end of the day it is personal choice, but when marks clearly do not reflect performance perhaps it should be challenged, someone suggested videoing and sending to appropriate authorities but again that makes me feel uncomfortable and very 'big brother' so where can we complain? I am not a fan of the 'public forum' slating and societies are very conscious of this in their rules but perhaps they could come up with an 'independent body ' who listen to complaints.
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Post by flee on Jun 13, 2015 7:49:26 GMT
There is a 'positive' side to this problem . I once won a class at county level because the judge mistook me for someone else . This is absolutely true . I was pulled in top and in between watching the other ponies doing their shows the elderly lady judge maintained a long running ,if somewhat one-sided and confusing , conversation with me . I was relatively new to showing and just thought she was either a) very friendly or b) a bit doolally . When she eventually wandered off to consult with her steward the girl next to me leaned over and whispered ' She thinks you're ******** . I said ' What should I do?' and she replied 'If I was you I'd keep my mouth shut'.She seemed to find it highly amusing . I was duly awarded 1st place and as the judge handed me the rosette she said 'Well done ********.' So an excellent result don't you think ? . Oh - and it might cheer you even further to know that the real ******** was down at the bottom of the line with a look of fury on her face . So then Burkas are not the answer . A mask of the rider of your choice is .
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Post by springer on Jun 13, 2015 9:27:21 GMT
]We're home produced & have had some fabulous results this year under judges we don't know so it's not always facey !
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Post by the showing register on Jun 13, 2015 9:44:46 GMT
Time to reply from TSR !
Like Janet we normally dont respond but this thread has kept its integrity and not descended into personal insults so here goes :Sometimes the above scenarios do happen or appear to happen and is to be regretted as it deters exhibitors from entering shows. Perhaps the answer lies in the Societies and probably HOYS demanding utter transparency from Judges AND Exhibitors. Often the result is correct as all judging is subjective but in the exhibitors eyes a favour has been done for some reason and it leaves a bitter taste.
How to tackle this ?
We have suggested in the past a register of Judges interests so everyone can see who has purchased ponies from whom, who is sponsored or sponsoring etc. This is deemed to be intrusive but in this world we now live in it might be necessary to offer confidence and transparency to the judging process. The most heard refrain from Societies is that ' no rules have been broken ' this is not an adequate response as although technically no rules were broken the PERCEPTION of fair play was not seen to be happening in the ring on the day.
Exhibitors are not without blame as they always try to push it that little bit and we cannot blame producers for showing what is in their yards the lions share of keeping the sport clean and fair must rest with each and every individual judge.Any sport that has an element that makes it subjective suffers the same and if you follow football you regularly hear Moriniho railing against referees !
If you have any ideas on how judges,exhibitors etc could come together to improve the perception of judging then please e mail us and we will put your ideas out there for discussion.
Gail Chapman
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Post by judyh on Jun 13, 2015 9:50:41 GMT
My post was a statement of fact, it actually happened.
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Post by bigmama on Jun 13, 2015 10:46:18 GMT
A couple of weeks ago we watched the amateur class and noticed a girl that does very well on her own Connie was sat on another girls Connie , it was a massive class and she was pulled second and went on to win the class. The girl who owns the pony then went into the juniors and again it was a massive class, she was pulled very last off the go round and wasn't placed. How can the judges like it enough to win the first class and then pull it bottom in the second class? Fair enough it might not have gone as well but it's not lost a leg in between the two classes !! I am sure this was the PUK RIHS Amateur/Intermediate/Junior qualifier that I judged - I am happy to explain my judging processes on the day as follows: Firstly only TEN animals were called in from the go round & the others asked to line up in any order (in all the classes) The fell pony drawn top after the go round very sadly had a couple of blips in its show - I loved the pony and would have been very happy for it to stay top & my co judge was equally disappointed, but that is showing. The Connemara drawn second which we both also liked did an excellent show, was also liked by my co judge for conformation & type & so moved up to win. The other placings also altered from the pull in, often due to disappointing shows, in part due to the wet, muddy & quite slippery conditions...... etc I have shown various ponies for many years under Mrs Bushell and her co-judge on that day and always found each of them to be the fairest of judges ... no, we do not always win under them but their judging is very accurate and based on a long and vast wealth of experience and 'what they see on the day'
The show/classes in question took place on very wet and squelchy ground which soon churned up with the large volume of native ponies competing and this inevitably led to some ponies not performing to their best in each class and the ground worsened as classes progressed. This was most obvious in the championship where the only pony that truly travelled unperturbed by the ground was the eventual champion, a very worthy winner
Very well judged
It would be naive of me to suggest that 'faces' do not feature in some judges method of judging but on the above occasion, this was not the case
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Post by HorseCrazy01 on Jun 13, 2015 11:09:53 GMT
I agree with all of the said comments above.
I have to say I'm glad the showing register are willing to put some ideas forward. I am actually a member of yours and have always found this society to be extremely helpful towards all the competitors.
I think this is something we all need to come together on, to save our sport if not everything else in between.
Hopefully a few judges will read this and see it is a fair point and it isn't right.
If your a producer and in your expertise you expect them to be bringing 'the best example of the breed into the ring- or should I say a hoys qualifier' Which when they do- I'll take my hats off to them when they deservingly qualify on a quality animal. But some do abuse the fact that they are so well known they can literally just sit on anything- but do we blame them? Ultimately the decision and conscious sits on the judges shoulders. As they sit and watch ponies at the final knowing they weren't the best but merely did a favor for someone at a show.
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Post by notsignedin on Jun 13, 2015 13:04:09 GMT
Totally agree!! I went to hoys last yer an for a fact I know there are better ponies on the circuit and was disappointed watching the classes I did because they aren't a true reflection of the ponies out there. I also thought this and I have the seemingly unpopular view that the combination that qualify should be the combination in the ring at the final at HOYS
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Post by bigmama on Jun 13, 2015 13:07:38 GMT
Totally agree!! I went to hoys last yer an for a fact I know there are better ponies on the circuit and was disappointed watching the classes I did because they aren't a true reflection of the ponies out there. I also thought this and I have the seemingly unpopular view that the combination that qualify should be the combination in the ring at the final at HOYS That old chestnut raises it's head again!
Can never see it happening
Best way forward would be for an Amateur M&M Ridden @ Hoys
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jun 13, 2015 15:22:12 GMT
I have to say I steward quite a lot, and have never had the misfortune to steward to a judge who has judged who is on board rather than what is in front of them. Whilst I think possibly this does happen on an occasion the majority do not judge in that way! It is very easy standing outside a ring to judge a class, an entirely different thing stood inside, up close and personal if you like!
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Post by louisegelly on Jun 14, 2015 20:34:29 GMT
I also thought this and I have the seemingly unpopular view that the combination that qualify should be the combination in the ring at the final at HOYS That old chestnut raises it's head again!
Can never see it happening
Best way forward would be for an Amateur M&M Ridden @ Hoys And the coloureds
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