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Post by the showing register on Jan 16, 2016 19:00:05 GMT
Big questions pinkypie ! These are two thorny issues and overheight animals is a long standing issue as is doping. We will try and put what you have said into succinct questions and see if anyone has any fresh ideas how to tackle it. Do you think the doping you have seen is at smaller shows or HOYS Q ?
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Post by hazeysunshine on Jan 16, 2016 19:08:53 GMT
Absolutely agree with show ring etiquette or lack thereof. I saw a competitor in a Welsh class ride her pony on the inside track the whole of the go round and was impressed that although this pony was the nicest in the class it was bottom of the line, I think the judge was Peter boustead. Lot of respect for judges that call people out on it. Unfortunately it is very rare that people are I've been squished into corners, barged out of line, people riding so close behind can hear them breathing and riding the inside track next to me coincidentally as the judge is looking. It seems worse in the m&m classes.
Fat ponies are definitely something that should be discussed, some of the horses I have seen are grossly overweight.
Completely agree with the stallion fashion, fair enough if lovely example and used as breeding but if kept entire just to appear more impressive it's not fair on the horse.
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Post by willyymint on Jan 16, 2016 19:48:47 GMT
Something that I'd like Grandstand media to answer regard costs:- Why can't M&Ms be on the same day at Hoys Why do section Ds require JMB height Certs when there are no lower or upper height limits? Another question is when are the Dales Fells And highlands going to be split and have the same number of qualifiers as the Welshies. The quality of the animals now competing is of a high standard and should be rewarded with their own qualifiers?
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Post by the showing register on Jan 16, 2016 19:54:06 GMT
We have a large number of people asking about the h,f and d so thats on the list for questions. You are the first one on the other question so we will see if we get more people asking. Trying to be democratic !
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Jan 16, 2016 20:02:52 GMT
As a point of information there is a lower height limit for Welsh Ds of 13.2, or could by now have gone metric. Below that the animal can be transferred to Section C.
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Jan 16, 2016 20:24:44 GMT
Opening pony classes up to adults would for me personally be the death of it I'd walk away be even more farcical than it already is in the show world.
It's bad enough that HP ponies have to compete gains ponies that are warmed up/set up/kid put on there back as they go in the ring anyway.
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Post by the showing register on Jan 16, 2016 20:33:58 GMT
Thatboythatgirl Would you be asking the question .. should only the rider of the pony work it in at the show before competing ?
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Jan 16, 2016 20:46:00 GMT
Thatboythatgirl Would you be asking the question .. should only the rider of the pony work it in at the show before competing ? That was mainly my view in reslo sr to people saying opwn pony classes up to adult riders, but yes personally I think that pony classes should adopt the the ruling of amateur Hunters where they can be produced but the day of the show only worked by the child. My biggest bug bare showing is hunter weights It seems to be going more on height than substance.
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Post by hazeysunshine on Jan 16, 2016 21:04:03 GMT
Glad the fell, Dales and Highland question is being asked. I emailed grandstand about it and got no response.
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Post by hazeysunshine on Jan 16, 2016 21:05:12 GMT
Also I won't be able to attend but will some type of overview of the day be published after?
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Post by sjw87 on Jan 17, 2016 1:28:08 GMT
Reading through the posts on here, there are a lot of valid points raised. One thing that strikes me though is that there is a need for judges to explain their placings.
If a judge (quite rightly) puts a horse down the line for being obese, they need to tell the rider/handler why for it to be of any benefit. If they don't, the competitor is likely to just presume that the judge doesn't like their horse and not show under them again. Often people are oblivious to the truth and it doesn't then benefit the horse or improve standards.
The same applies whatever the reason for putting someone down the line, from bad manners of horse or rider right through to animals appearing doped. Of course, one judge's comments may well be brushed aside but if numerous judges make the same comments, over time competitors will hopefully realise and amend the problem.
The sad thing is that I doubt this will happen as judges (understandably) fear retribution nowadays. I don't know if it's been the fault of social media but over recent years I have found less and less judges giving any feedback in the ring, sometimes leaving competitors mystified at how the results were decided.
Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Jan 17, 2016 7:27:42 GMT
I agree, if it is something that can be rectified for another time, which is a helpful comment. Some years ago before the current focus on bodyweight one of mine was put down for being too fat, which she was. She was a good pony, pulled in second in a class of about 10, then moved down to bottom. I'm not in any way complaining about the judging, but was mystified at the time as I'd have expected her to have been pulled in lower in the first place if it was for being too fat, which would have been clearly seen before the pull in. Judge was asked, and explained his reason. It does of course tell you which judges are likely to put fat ones down for the future!
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Post by chloesmum on Jan 17, 2016 10:13:55 GMT
Really sorry thatboythatgirl but that is what I mean about why do we also seem to overcomplicate showing and make more rules which are impossible to manage. How can you stop someone else warming up a pony? What about a child 'lucky' they might be that has 2 or more ponies and is competing in the ring on one - who then gets the other one ready? I thought that the HP classes already had a rule that only members of the family can prepare pony - do we really want to stop older siblings/mother maybe riding pony in if necessary? I do take your point re age on ponies and of course BSPS is a Childrens Society but maybe there could be something like the Australian system Junior and Senior classes. Then Children do not have to compete against adults but small adults still have the opportunity of keeping their ponies and enjoying showing, it is great that NPS have no age limit but these classes are few and far between with no real Championship like RIHS or HOYS. P.S. Glad to hear TSR that weight limits are seen as a guideline perhaps for Judges although again often difficult to assess perception of weight can be a difficult one! However it was making me chuckle to think we could have a 'Disney' system of height bars and scales before you enter the ring!!!! Sorry just made me smile on a dull night! Good Luck with your debate - I think it will be very lively!
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Post by bigmama on Jan 17, 2016 12:03:26 GMT
Bigmama dig you know that membership to the NPS includes third party insurance Yes, thank you, I do know this but already have third party insurance as part of our ponies overall insurance plan .. well done, though, NPS .. just wish all societies would follow suit xx
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Post by bigmama on Jan 17, 2016 12:10:16 GMT
Thatboythatgirl Would you be asking the question .. should only the rider of the pony work it in at the show before competing ? Under BSPS rules, only tack that is allowed in the ring can be used in the collecting ring so why is it that a rider who is not eligible to ride a pony in the ring is allowed to ride it in the collecting ring?
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Post by gillwales on Jan 17, 2016 13:23:37 GMT
Bigmama dig you know that membership to the NPS includes third party insurance So does the AHS, Im a life member of both so well covered
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Post by NPS info on Jan 17, 2016 14:04:13 GMT
Chloe's Mum the NPS SP/SHP final has amazing prize money, I think in excess of £500 for first prize kindly sponsored by the Kellythorpe Stud so is well worth trying to qualify for - come on adults don't sell/retire your show ponies/show hunter ponies ride them yourselves
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Post by the showing register on Jan 17, 2016 15:03:54 GMT
TSR also have put on open age SP SHP classes but have not seen a discernable increase in entries I think those classes are seen as ones for children. Good promotion NPS !!
Keep the questions coming good stuff !
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Post by gillwales on Jan 17, 2016 17:14:28 GMT
TSR also have put on open age SP SHP classes but have not seen a discernable increase in entries I think those classes are seen as ones for children. Good promotion NPS !! Keep the questions coming good stuff ! You have to stick at it! Once exposure is greater and classes more established accross all areas you will get an increase of entries. The BSPS have such a stronghold over these classes that it will be difficult to get riders of all ages interested, but it is just what we need to increase the demand for our beautiful Bristish Riding Ponies. Well done the TSR!
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Post by harrythepig on Jan 17, 2016 21:19:54 GMT
My thoughts on some of the issues above. Brilliant idea to hold this type of event.
We had a 14hh SHP/WHP which we sold last spring as although on paper under NPS rules my daughter would still have been able to ride her as she was too old under BSPS, as the mare could not be submitted to the national stud book she was not eligible. This was despite the mare holding a part bred Connemara passport. I know of many ponies who compete without checking if they are eligible but knowing we could not we decided we had no choice but to sell her.
Second, if the FDH breed classes are to be debated I strongly believe the NF/Connie should be too. If anyone wants to look for a reason look at last years RI line up which was dominated by Connies in the class and of course the top placings. It is totally disheartening for Forester competitors to know that they may as well not turn up unless they are a known producer or unless their Forest is grey and therefore looks like a Connie!
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bugs
Junior Member
Posts: 121
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Post by bugs on Jan 17, 2016 23:09:20 GMT
I strongly agree with both FDH and Conn/NF classes being separated. There are some wonderful examples of all these breeds on the circuit, but certain breeds always tend to dominate with the odd exception and it would be nice to see a better split across all the breeds represented at the finals.
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Post by Not fat enough on Jan 18, 2016 7:37:08 GMT
On the subject of over weight ponies, I have on several occasions been put down the line at NPS Summer Champs for my pony not being fat enough, she was in excellent condition just not pig fat, so until judges stop putting fat ponies at the top of the line, the problem will continue.
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Post by gillwales on Jan 18, 2016 9:13:41 GMT
On the subject of over weight ponies, I have on several occasions been put down the line at NPS Summer Champs for my pony not being fat enough, she was in excellent condition just not pig fat, so until judges stop putting fat ponies at the top of the line, the problem will continue. Hence Judges need to educated and dirrected. There is a page on Facebook called Ponies of Yesteryear, they are mainly from the 60's and 70's , they carry a lot less weight, have much better limbs and plenty of elbow space, proper 4 square ponies that would go out and do a job. We really need to get back to this type of animal. Also the children looked the right size and not under-sized midgets!
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Post by willsbury on Jan 18, 2016 11:46:19 GMT
Regarding over height ponies/ horses. the only way this will ever stop is if judges start rewarding smaller animals that are correct in relation to there own size. I know in a large class of say 153cm shp's the biggest ones will have the biggest strides, the most bone and the greatest length of rein and generally be the biggest eyeful. but if a pony that only measures 146cm in the same class has more bone, stride , scope in relation to its size it should be able to beat the larger animals. what is the point of these classes being for the full hand height range if only full up to height animals get a look in. judges have the power here to eradicate the need for over height horses/ ponies.
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Post by Not fat enough on Jan 18, 2016 18:53:32 GMT
The judges concerned were very well known, & the NPS will I believe have judges annual meeting's, I'm no longer a member so don't know how often they have to attend these meeting / assessment's. I agree about ponies in the 70's, I worked for a top producer & had the pleasure of working with many of the ponies on that facebook page.
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Post by the showing register on Jan 18, 2016 20:40:42 GMT
R.e.d questions on judges/judging is included we are going to ask the question .. should judges be encouraged to sign up to a voluntary code of conduct and if so what should it include ? Weight of ponies is also on the agenda.
A very nice pic of Bwlch Valentino on FB today shows the difference in condition.
Willsbury a good point and one that comes back to an experienced judge.
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Post by Toaster on Jan 18, 2016 21:14:21 GMT
This sounds really interesting, I will be there!
Toaster (AKA Harrypatch)
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Post by gillwales on Jan 18, 2016 21:14:49 GMT
R.e.d questions on judges/judging is included we are going to ask the question .. should judges be encouraged to sign up to a voluntary code of conduct and if so what should it include ? Weight of ponies is also on the agenda. A very nice pic of Bwlch Valentino on FB today shows the difference in condition. Willsbury a good point and one that comes back to an experienced judge. Yes they should. Has a Society you need to make clear your aims and what you expect of a Judge and how you expect them to behave. ( We must remember though that it is voluntary position) They need to be limited in the number of classes they judge throughout a season which should cover all sections, then those few that Judge everything/ everywhere will not have such a strong influence. They should know what they should expect at the shows they Judge for; i.e. a Steward, refreshments, petrol money, courses built if workers, a steward and marker. Not being resposible for the warm up area. A stripandry Steward should be appointed to each show that is responsible for the running of the classes on the ground rather than the Secretary who is usually tied to the Sec's tent and is envolved in the Admin. The S.Steward should be able to report back to your Society regarding any problems, disputes or to make a good report. Re overweight animals maybe you could get a Vet to write a statement about the issue and make certain that the Judges read it so they fully understand the implecations of having fat ponies at the top of the line. For me the basics would include judging a whole class, by which I mean if a class was for a show pony exceeding 138 cm and not exceeding 148 cm then all of the ponies should be treated without discrimination regarding height providing it is of type and suitable for it's jockey ( this can be used for under horsed and over horsed riders ) Not putting up over-weight animals. It is upto the competitors not to have connections to the Judges, however if the Judge is aware of any then they should ask the animal to leave the ring. This is just a start, but you need to start somewhere. Also Judges should regulary attend conferences when suggested new rules can be disgusted and those that have come into place explained, along with the aims of the Society. All of this is expensive and competitors must expect this to be reflected in fees. Anyway that is your starter for 10, I'm certain that my fellow HGs will add or disect what I have written.
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Post by Guestless on Jan 18, 2016 21:58:06 GMT
Why can't M&Ms be on the same day at Hoys Why do section Ds require JMB height Certs when there are no lower or upper height limits? I agree with this - total pain in the proverbial having the large breeds on one day and then the championship the next day (and at a time that means if you want to view it and live a distance away, you need to stay an extra night or travel through the small hours.
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Post by willsbury on Jan 18, 2016 22:43:31 GMT
I don't think simply judges not putting up overweight animals is the answer. The reasons for ponies being shown over weight has to be understood and addressed . I believe the issue of over weight ponies in particular fat show and show hunter ponies is a direct consequence of only full up to height ponies winning. This has become significantly worse since height measuring became much stricter. The 133 and 143 shp classes are full of miss height over weight show ponies which win because they are full up to height for that class. If they could be successful as a smaller show pony there wouldn't be the need to have them too fat. The bottom line is fat ponies look bigger. Removing the need for ponies to be full up to height will stop ponies being shown overweight.
It would be unfair to expect judges to bring about these kind of changes through their judging alone , after all if you are presented as a judge with a ring full of fat show ponies in a shp class your winner will have to be a fat show pony. This kind of change would need showing societies to publish strict directives. Only then would competitors have the confidence show slimmer ponies without the fear that they will look small in the class.
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