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Post by bigmama on Apr 30, 2016 16:14:08 GMT
Prize money, rosettes, sashes all to owner who will have paid the entry fees. The producer has already been paid to produce animal and transport it to show. As has already been said above, it is up to the owner what they wish to do with the prize money once they have it in their hand. Personally, I find 50/50 split of cash between owner and rider pretty fair, if that is what the owner wants to do .. I always used to do this with my own daughter when she was little, riding her own ponies home produced by she and me .. I would pay the entries and we would divide any winnings between us and she would often scamper off to the sweetie stall to spend her share and never complained. It did teach her the value of money, bless her
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Post by Toaster on Apr 30, 2016 19:44:54 GMT
Prize money, rosettes, sashes all to owner who will have paid the entry fees. The producer has already been paid to produce animal and transport it to show.
This is how I would see it 100% I am really surprised that the situation in some cases is not clear cut Prize money has nothing to do with professional recognition in my eyes, the producer is already paid to do that job Whether someone credits the producer with a job well done is down to word of mouth and good manners not cash handouts
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Post by flee on May 2, 2016 18:40:21 GMT
[quote author= PLP said : however there are ALOT of "breeders" out there who do not take the time to plan, select the perfect mare/stallion combination, pay for AI if necessary, have their mares under cctv when foaling etc etc it is these breeders who as i said far to often aren't interested once they have sold the foals soon as they've got some pennies they disappear.... until said foal 5 years down the line qualifies for HOYs/RI/Olympia.
[/quote]
So basically what you're saying is that by haphazard breeding ( ie random , unplanned and/or careless pairings ) and negligent horse management ( unsupervised stock ) " A LOT of breeders " infact manage to breed HOYS , RI and Olympia winners .
And there was me thinking it was difficult to breed quality animals . If only I'd known ....
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Post by flee on May 2, 2016 19:08:11 GMT
[quote author=" bigmama" source="/post/1376204/ we would divide any winnings between us and she would often scamper off to the sweetie stall to spend her share and never complained. It did teach her the value of money, bless her [/font][/font][/quote] Ahhhh - the good old days eh Jackie ? Now , it's straight off to the Pimms tent , with a championship win requiring three burly stewards to carry her back to the wagon in the wee , small hours !
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Post by PLP on May 3, 2016 15:26:31 GMT
[quote author= PLP said : however there are ALOT of "breeders" out there who do not take the time to plan, select the perfect mare/stallion combination, pay for AI if necessary, have their mares under cctv when foaling etc etc it is these breeders who as i said far to often aren't interested once they have sold the foals soon as they've got some pennies they disappear.... until said foal 5 years down the line qualifies for HOYs/RI/Olympia. So basically what you're saying is that by haphazard breeding ( ie random , unplanned and/or careless pairings ) and negligent horse management ( unsupervised stock ) " A LOT of breeders " infact manage to breed HOYS , RI and Olympia winners . And there was me thinking it was difficult to breed quality animals . If only I'd known .... [/quote] No, that isn't what i'm "basically" saying. I'm not suggesting nor did i suggest that haphazard breeding leads to lot of breeders breed HOYS/RI/Olympia winners. Winner was never mentioned. What i did say and subsequently "basically" mean is that there is alot of breeders who do not take the time and effort to carefully plan and select a paring- it is these breeders who far to often aren't interested once they have sold the foals, until they do well competing and qualify for one of the big shows.... IF they do well and IF they manage to qualify. Not ALL do. It is extremely difficult and very time consuming among other things to breed quality animals time and time again. I do not and have not said otherwise.
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Post by bigmama on May 3, 2016 15:29:45 GMT
[quote author=" bigmama" source="/post/1376204/ we would divide any winnings between us and she would often scamper off to the sweetie stall to spend her share and never complained. It did teach her the value of money, bless her [/font][/font][/quote] Ahhhh - the good old days eh Jackie ? Now , it's straight off to the Pimms tent , with a championship win requiring three burly stewards to carry her back to the wagon in the wee , small hours ! [/quote] Thank you, dear Flee, for causing me to choke on my cuppa and fall off my chair with laughter!
.. and yes, she is defo a Pimms girl!
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Post by bigmama on May 3, 2016 15:39:39 GMT
[quote author= PLP said : however there are ALOT of "breeders" out there who do not take the time to plan, select the perfect mare/stallion combination, pay for AI if necessary, have their mares under cctv when foaling etc etc it is these breeders who as i said far to often aren't interested once they have sold the foals soon as they've got some pennies they disappear.... until said foal 5 years down the line qualifies for HOYs/RI/Olympia. So basically what you're saying is that by haphazard breeding ( ie random , unplanned and/or careless pairings ) and negligent horse management ( unsupervised stock ) " A LOT of breeders " infact manage to breed HOYS , RI and Olympia winners . And there was me thinking it was difficult to breed quality animals . If only I'd known .... No, that isn't what i'm "basically" saying. I'm not suggesting nor did i suggest that haphazard breeding leads to lot of breeders breed HOYS/RI/Olympia winners. Winner was never mentioned. What i did say and subsequently "basically" mean is that there is alot of breeders who do not take the time and effort to carefully plan and select a paring- it is these breeders who far to often aren't interested once they have sold the foals, until they do well competing and qualify for one of the big shows.... IF they do well and IF they manage to qualify. Not ALL do. It is extremely difficult and very time consuming among other things to breed quality animals time and time again. I do not and have not said otherwise. [/quote] Let me spell it out clearly.
What you DID say is, and I quote, "however there are A LOT of "breeders" out there who do not take the time to plan, select the perfect mare/stallion combination, pay for AI if necessary, have their mares under cctv when foaling etc etc it is these breeders who as i said far to often aren't interested once they have sold the foals soon as they've got some pennies they disappear.... until said foal 5 years down the line qualifies for HOYs/RI/Olympia"
Flees point is that if, as you suggest, breeders are so careless yet they still breed ponies who go on to qualify for Hoys/RI/Olympia then surely those breeders are not so careless after all, qualifying is an achievement in itself
Happy breeding everyone
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Post by gillwales on May 3, 2016 17:03:23 GMT
Goodness PLP, you do have a chip on your shoulder. Showing is meant to be fun, why don't you enjoy it instead of finding something to moan about? Or breed your own HOYS winner, then you won't be a green eyed monster over other people that do, as that is how you are coming accross, I doubt there will be many HGers that disagree with me.
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Post by Plp on May 3, 2016 22:16:49 GMT
Goodness PLP, you do have a chip on your shoulder. Showing is meant to be fun, why don't you enjoy it instead of finding something to moan about? Or breed your own HOYS winner, then you won't be a green eyed monster over other people that do, as that is how you are coming accross, I doubt there will be many HGers that disagree with me. ?? Couldn't be further from the truth. I have no chip on my shoulder, I don't appreciate being targeted for having an opinion! I expected an onslaught but not personal digs. Neither of you know anything about me so I would think its best not to make assumptions, don't you? Yet again the post which is "being spelt out clearly" is rude and uncalled for. What in fact is being spelt out clearly I your inability to read and understand my point. What is being spelt out there is assumptions of what I meant- please do not twist people's words. Jealousy? That's a new one. Somehow I'm jealous of the breeder who bred one of my foals, who once she had the money couldn't careless about him. I even had to passport and chip him. I've worked hard with him and he qualified for hoys. Now she wants to know all about him and is throwing her name around like I owe her. No. She didn't even follow the law to passport and chip the foal! Trust me when I say there is not a single sniff of jealousy in the air. I have much more to my "name" than said breeder. I laugh off her sudden interest and have shot her down in now wanting to be involved. How this has turned into a war against myself in the last couple of posts I don't know. The thread had gone quiet and remained bully free until certain people chose to target. Looks like this place is still living up to its name "ruthless HG" I've often read with interest and finally decided to become a member, but God forbid I have an opinion which differs to the view of some of the "big time" members.
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Post by Plp on May 3, 2016 22:22:10 GMT
Oh and before I get jumped on for saying I don't owe the breeder anything. It isn't intended to be taken as I don't owe her for bringing my boy into the world. He was substantially paid for. What is meant is I do not owe her any publicity or any of my time to now be interested In the horse she's never been interested in.
But I also said not all breeders are like that and infact praised a few in here who replied to my original post. Hoping the breeder would take a leaf out of their book.
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Post by Philippa on May 4, 2016 4:44:09 GMT
PLP, when you make a massively controversial statement as in your first post as I pointed out, you cannot possibly expect a fluffy outcome of replies. It's not personal, it can never be personal when people don't know you however you are very personally (in your own posts) slating to the point of disgust the person who bred your quality pony who has since qu. For HOYS?? Well done by the way for getting an inferior persons misguided breeding mistake to HOYS! Is that not what you are saying??
When reading replies do remember the written word can be interpreted in many different ways by different people. This does include you & your posts.
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Post by Money on May 4, 2016 6:11:44 GMT
Let's get back on topic.
A good producer will give their clients a contract. You should read it throughly, if it states the producer keeps the prize money then so be it, it is between the producer and the client and no one else.
Bearing in mind if the do well, which is what the client hopes for, they end up in championships, which are usually at the end of the day. So a very early start and a very late finish deserves something.
You don't see many rich producers. They mostly do it for the love of the sport.
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Post by Philippa on May 4, 2016 7:21:26 GMT
Let's get back on topic. Bearing in mind if the do well, which is what the client hopes for, they end up in championships, which are usually at the end of the day. So a very early start and a very late finish deserves something. . Money, are you a producer?? Just asking. I appreciate what you are saying but the job of a producer is just that - a job. If they do their job badly they lose business, if they do it well they increase or maintain their business. They set their prices at the beginning of the year and this should cover everything involved in running their business and the profit they want to earn. I'm sure if everytime you went to the supermarket they said I'll keep your change as I've had a long day and deserve it you would possibly look differently upon it.
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Post by gillwales on May 4, 2016 7:30:26 GMT
Let's get back on topic. A good producer will give their clients a contract. You should read it throughly, if it states the producer keeps the prize money then so be it, it is between the producer and the client and no one else. Bearing in mind if the do well, which is what the client hopes for, they end up in championships, which are usually at the end of the day. So a very early start and a very late finish deserves something. You don't see many rich producers. They mostly do it for the love of the sport. well said Money, I for one am to blame for being distracted from the topic.. my apologies. You are right, no mater what business transaction you undertake it should always be accomanpied with a clear contract so that everyone knows where they stand and their responsibilities. You should know what bang you get for your buck. Those at the top will be financially rewarded, however everyone should remember that it comes with a life-ssstyle of hard work; the same as Farmers, the animals require 24/7/52 care. We do need to get away from the state where animals are always expected to win though, and to value placing, or more to the point, the animal going well.
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Post by Money on May 4, 2016 12:51:23 GMT
As I said earlier it between the producer and the client not for the gossipers on here.
i am not a producer it's a thankless job same as a judge whereby you are consistently slated on this site, with posters not knowing both sides of the story.
As for your supermarket analogy, you wouldn't be expected to work over 14 hours without pay.
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Post by Philippa on May 4, 2016 12:59:08 GMT
I did say I was just asking. And 14 hours without pay. Come on, its factored into the costs. It's part of the job and extra charges are incurred for taking ponies shows. The top producers do a great job. They also have a team of staff in the background. They wouldn't do it for nothing and I for one wouldn't expect them to but as regards prize money if the owner pays the entry they should get the prize money in my eyes.
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Post by Philippa on May 4, 2016 13:05:03 GMT
And for the record I've never slated any producer or judge on this site. I have more respect than that!!
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Post by Money on May 4, 2016 14:24:31 GMT
And for the record I've never slated any producer or judge on this site. I have more respect than that!! I didn't say you I said this site. The Pretty Polly Thread comes to mind can an I ask Phillaps do you have a pony produced ❓
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Post by catkin on May 4, 2016 14:36:17 GMT
Sorry, but this really is getting to be a rather aggressive thread. Some interesting points made and I for one never mind a bit of a detour; they are sometimes v interesting. I have stated my belief on what should happen with prize money and rosettes, but each to their own individual arrangement. For the record, in case anyone asks, I used to ride a lot for other people as a child and was lucky enough to receive quite a bit of the prize money (though this was never asked for or expected) and yes, I do have a horse produced (I keep the prize money and the rosettes etc). This has always been an automatic thing and was never discussed, though of course, its a good thing to get this decided up front. As for producers and their profits - again, that's up to them. I can certainly think of easier ways of earning money!
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Post by chloesmum on May 4, 2016 15:00:47 GMT
Totally agree with catkin what started of as a genuine question and interesting debate has become very agressive intersting it is guests again (plp and money). I hadn't commented as I do think it is a private matter between you and the producer but we do have a pony produced and some at home. We have been with 3 producers over the last 26 years and have also done our own entries and kept rosettes and prize money. I have never had a producer expect to keep it but we have always ridden our ponies ourselves, I think this could be a different story if you are paying a producer to ride your horse/pony for you. I think then I would at least split it 50/50 or give prize money to rider. It is difficult as really a 'professional' producer is doing a job for you and if you are paying for riding as well it is a bit of a grey area. My daughter also rode for others when she was younger and occassionally was given prize money but we would never expect it. Usually it was ice cream money and she was just very grateful for the chance to ride. Totally agree good producers work extremely hard and I am sure it can be a thankless task but it can also be a great lifestyle if horses are your passion. I am sure you will never be a 'millionaire' to quote delboy! however it is a lifestyle choice. Let's be honest for all of us with horses it is hard work and expensive! We have always had a great relationship with the families we have been with and I would like to think we are very loyal, we do not 'jump ship' every season. For us it is not about winning, it is about having our pony well looked after, and as we always bring on youngsters it is about having them educated well from the start so they can come home to us as we do like to be hands on. We really appreciate the work our producers team puts in and that we are made to feel like part of the team and good friends as well.
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Post by Money on May 4, 2016 15:05:54 GMT
I would be interested to where you think I was aggressive chloesmum .
I would like to know as I will then apologise as this was not my intention, Just another side to the story ??
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Post by at work nli on May 4, 2016 15:55:47 GMT
I've read all of this thread but haven't posted til now as the topic doesn't affect me - we are totally home produced. I honestly think though, that the comments posted by PLP and Money would not have been jumped on as aggressively if a member had posted them under their own username.
I think we all need to remember that this is a forum and people's opinions will differ but we should respect that and sometimes agree to differ. It annoys me that some people have a very poor opinion of this site and we really don't help ourselves when thread's go like this one has.
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Post by chloesmum on May 4, 2016 15:56:25 GMT
As always it is about how things are written and how you read it. Which is probably where most threads turn negative. I am not sure this was ever about who works hardest producers/ breeders, no one ever suggested being a producer is easy it was just about what was the norm in terms of prize money and as I have said I think that is a private, individual matter and something that should be sorted out within the terms if using a producer.
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Post by Philippa on May 4, 2016 16:44:02 GMT
I will answer Money's question - no, I don't have a pony in production but it's not something I've dismissed.
I apologise for taking things off track and as I've answered the OP's question I've no other reason to post again on the subject.
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Post by every penny on May 10, 2016 8:14:01 GMT
I have had horse produced on a number of occasions and must say what value for money they are when you compare with a full livery arrangement. I kept all rosette's and money. The rider is paid for by the producer so I never felt the need to repay them. I have read this thread with interest and cannot see why one person's view is not respected as is any other's guest or no guest, we are all people after all with feelings and opinion's. I do think owners need to discuss all aspects of production of their animals prior to sending them and as money does not grow on trees then every penny helps. A good producer will have a contract that you agree on other wise you place yourself and animals in a potential situation for conflict.
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on May 13, 2016 9:48:07 GMT
I've been away so only just seen this or I would have joined in earlier, especially is it seems to have been my post that prompted PLP's original posting on the subject.
Many of the points I would have made have now been made by others so check up on my "likes" above to see where I stand, and I have no intention of going into "I do this and don't do that" except to say that PLP's assumptions both in the OP and the later one regarding her idea of a "true breeder" do not apply to me as those of you who know me will know. The producer will of course get publicity by being there in the ring with my pony anyway for better or worse, but if the ownership is completely ignored no-one would know whose it is. I have also had the incorrect owner of one of mine read out over the PA at RWAS when she was I think Ridden Mare Ch - you must see how galling that is for an owner, although I didn't breed that one. The breeder would have been known by her prefix anyway of course.
PLP, I'm very interested to hear what you think the motivation is for an owner/breeder to have one produced at all under your model of "producer gets all credit"? And please do remember that not all of us are capable for various reasons of producing them from home as you do - and more power to your elbow in doing that.
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