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Post by the showing register on Sept 8, 2016 14:45:43 GMT
We have an unprecedented response to our consultation and have listened to what judges , exhibitors and show officials have told us the second draft is below plus an invitation to come to our Debate and tell us what you think !
Note : since we circulated the second draft a lot of people think the mark sheet should have a column to indicate if marks have been deducted
Have your say on this season's most emotive showing topics.
11am "Are you suitably Mounted?" 2pm "Integrity in the Show Ring"
FREE to attend, OPEN to EVERYONE
Up for discussion is a draft rule concerning unsuitably mounted riders please see below & email in your comments info@theshowingregister.co.uk OR attend the debate
Draft Rule 1 - In the Ring 50 Marks can be awarded for Manners and way of going Judges are advised to deduct marks if they consider the rider is unsuitably mounted If no marks are used when judging the rider should be placed out of the prizes
Draft Rule 2 - Outside the Ring Show officials / judges at a show affiliated to ( TSR ) are requested to advise riders who are riding in ponies / horses for a third party that they must be of a suitable size and weight (as a guide they should be of similar size or less than a suitable rider in the ring) . Officials will be supported by the society if they ask the rider to dismount. Abuse either verbal or physical towards the official will be reported to( TSR).
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Post by hazeysunshine on Sept 8, 2016 19:42:20 GMT
Sounds good, what will be the definition of suitably mounted though? Otherwise it just becomes another opinion. One judge may think fine whilst another thinks too big.
Saw a post on fb where a lass had been told her marks would be impacted due to being too big for her pony. She was gutted and ended up in tears. Quite small and about a size 10 for a large breed m+M no way too big.
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Post by hazeysunshine on Sept 8, 2016 19:44:10 GMT
Also do think it's definitely a good idea to have it indicated somehow on the mark sheet or to be fedback if no mark sheet used
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Post by sjw87 on Sept 9, 2016 5:36:49 GMT
It was discussed on the other thread about it being done in a discreet manner - putting it on a marks sheet for all to see is not discreet imo.
I am in complete agreement that riders need to know that this is why they have lost marks otherwise nothing will change BUT, putting it on a marks sheet for others to see and put on the internet could easily be used as bullying. Not necessarily so much with a rider who is simply too big (ie. Adults riding ponies as this seems far more socially accepted), but for a rider with a weight issue (who will already be more than aware of the fact), you may as well just write 'You're fat' across their marks for all to see.
I've made a suggestion before that marks are broken down further eg. Conformation, manners, correctness of show (to cover inaccuracies in a set show or wrong legs etc), overall picture. If done like that, the overall picture marks could include everything from flamboyance of show, over bitting, the rider's position and unsuitable mounting rather than being a specific 'you're fat' column.
Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards
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Post by thelwell on Sept 9, 2016 6:38:44 GMT
Personally I think that this issue is becoming a bit out of control and very personal. What I want to see as a judge is the "the overall picture" of the pony and rider combination and do not need a column on the mark sheet to indirectly say "you are obese". I mostly see that large grown up riders are riding Welsh cobs, Dales or highlands not tiny section A's or shetlands.
The issue of very large men and women working in tiny ponies at shows is a completely different matter and do think that it needs addressing. We have all taken a small over exuberant pony to a show at some time in our lives with an even smaller unconfident rider. What is wrong with putting it on a lunge until it is fit to go into the ring and behave itself.
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Post by the showing register on Sept 9, 2016 7:22:55 GMT
Thanks Thelwell. The overall picture is the suitabilty of pony and rider so we agree on that. For the past month I have been working my way through the arguments and a strong one was that judges did not want to speak to competitors for fear of abuse. Deducting marks seemed a good way round it but we have strong representations that exhibitors will not know hence a seperate column.At the moment in the class description suitabilty does not have a place so perhaps it is as simple as adding that in ?
I do not have a personal view my job is to consult and see what would work. I hope lots of people will come and air their views on the 4th.
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Post by sallie on Sept 9, 2016 7:27:52 GMT
were is the debate if down south could you see your way to having one maybe a bit further north - i do understand these events cost money but it would be fab for those societys to have something a bit further up the country
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Post by clobo121082 on Sept 9, 2016 9:24:55 GMT
To add my thoughts I totally agree with what other people have said about not having a column to basically say 'you are too fat for your pony'. Personally I have a never judged a combination where I have thought this is a welfare case this pony can't carry that person happily - maybe I am just lucky? If the picture doesn't look right I would choose at my own discretion to deduct marks or drop the combination if it really made a big difference. I like to think most judges are sensible and would make their own choice on this. Some children might be big but maybe they aren't capable of stepping up another level yet and I can't imagine how they would feel seeing a mark sheet with a column marked you are too big for your pony!
Also as a side note which marks sheets would this extra column be going on? Mark sheets are only enforced by certain societies and obviously HOYS qualifiers have their own which you have to use so I assume the column would just be on the TSR mark sheets for their own classes are would the suggestion be going to HOYS for them to add in this column to theirs?
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Post by I Disagree on Sept 9, 2016 11:48:53 GMT
I think this whole debate on riders on ponies is absolute nonsense, surely a good judge would not place a rider if they were unhappy with the picture presented? This is in my view a vendetta against adults on small ponies even if the pony can carry a small adult, what about overweight adults on large breeds? Are you going to ask them to dismount in the ring because they are too fat? A judge should be able to judge what is in front of them without making the job more difficult with more rules, supposing there is a large child on a small pony , they may only be 10 yrs old they are going to be heartbroken to be told get off your too big, this may put them off altogether I am very cross about the whole thing and its better left as it is, let judges judge without this vendetta by the Showing Register of adults on ponies, who at the end of the day were breed to carry an adult across the moor
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Post by sjw87 on Sept 9, 2016 12:31:19 GMT
Just playing devil's advocate - surely an animal with a rider big/heavy enough to be a welfare issue wouldn't go well enough to win anyway?
If in fact the animal does go well enough to win (especially in top level classes), surely one could argue that it's not negatively affecting said equine?
Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards
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Post by the showing register on Sept 9, 2016 14:28:40 GMT
Its not a vendetta against anyone and we are not alone as a society in looking at this issue it is just we are choosing to do it in public! Although some people feel very strongly about it one way, others feel just as strongly the other. We are just trying to put peoples views in the public domain.
All the results of the consultation will be available before the 4th December and I am actively looking for speakers that oppose the draft if you are interested let me know.
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Post by angry parent on Sept 9, 2016 14:57:59 GMT
This whole debate has left me extremely angered. It has left my daughter questioning whether at just over 6 stones she is too heavy for her sec a. She has spoken of the need to lose weight and have not being able to show her beloved pony. Despite our assurances. Did you consult on the impact of the suitably mounted rules tsr? Or just have your own agenda regardless?
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Post by the showing register on Sept 9, 2016 15:24:46 GMT
At 6 stone she is well within any guidelines. We have had a massive consultation and indeed it is still carrying on. As you feel strongly would you like to come and speak or at least make your points from the floor on the 4th ?
To let you know we have surveyed our judges and over 200 have so far responded (90% for some sort of regulation), consulted with Tony Tyler at WHW, kept all the breed societies updated and had responses back, mailed all the other societies and show series, had written representations from senior judges and show organizers and of course taken the flack on HG !
Once we have finished consulting, as a Society, we will probably include this or a similar draft in our rule book. It is up to other societies to do whatever they find suits them on this issue. It would be good to all have something very similar if not the same but we will see. Our rules are largely the same as HOYS rules but we can add additional rules if we wish.
Horse Gossipers can and do have widely differing views and we are the only society to ask you and take it into account but a better discussion and better outcomes are achieved if it is not too personal.
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Post by Nothingontsr on Sept 9, 2016 15:35:44 GMT
Totally agree with the above, this is getting ridiculous.
I hope Tsr realise the damage they are doing to showing although one thing this nonsense has done is unite competitors, mainly in appalled horror at the way this is going on. A size 10 rider being told in the ring she has an obvious weight problem, it's shocking; these judges need striking off, not to be encouraged by this Tsr vendetta. You also massively underestimated the common sense of judges and stewards. Let them judge!! We don't need silly added extra columns to mark sheets, you will have an awful lot of columns to add if you start this sort of thing.
Interestingly for this "consultation" there is nothing in TSRs own Facebook to allow comment in the recent month, says it all really doesn't it....
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Post by the showing register on Sept 9, 2016 15:42:41 GMT
It goes out in our members newsletter tonight and after that on facebook. The last draft which was much stronger wording was on our FB page for comments and still is.
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Post by Nothingontsr on Sept 9, 2016 15:47:36 GMT
So it goes on horse gossip before speaking to your members?? Ok.....
I suspect we will end up after all this upset and anger with a rule that says basically "use your common sense" as it has done for the last 50 plus years which is what the latest drafts are just about already
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Post by the showing register on Sept 9, 2016 16:47:20 GMT
Its a no win here. I often post on HG for consultation ( it is good for me to joust with H Gossipers they are the frankest speaking lot in the showing world !!)and the office sends out our members letter and it has lots of other stuff as well as the draft - timing does not come into it as nothing has a time limit we hope lots of people will come and say everything that is on their minds on the 4th Dec. Our members have nearly 3 months to respond if they wish and be assured we do listen but if you dont open up a debate how can you know the strength of feeling or how to proceed ?
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Post by Surprised on Sept 9, 2016 16:57:18 GMT
Without wishing to dispute your research and information but I found the comment from TSR that 90% of your judges surveyed were in favour of some form of regulation very interesting. All of the judges/colleagues I have spoken to on this subject have been in favour of being allowed to use their common sense and years of experience to judge suitability as they have done over many years, I have yet to meet one who has said they would feel happy to make a written comment or tell a competitor they are too big for their pony. I guess this will depend on how the question was worded - I believe there is more interest in tackling the 'riding in' of childrens ponies by riders who are too large than those who compete ponies in the ring.
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Post by the showing register on Sept 9, 2016 17:11:03 GMT
Surprised we sent out a survey with several questions and it was a closed one for judges so I cannot put up on here what the questions were but they all concerned speaking to adults or children in or out of the ring. It has come out very strongly from the survey and from lots of e mails that whilst agreeing with the concerns judges do not want to speak to people directly and if that is the case how can it be dealt with ? There is no mark for 'picture or suitability ' so if judges are already deducting marks (which a high number say they are )then exhibitors may feel they have got a lower mark than they should for their show. There is another thread on here about doing a spot on show and getting a low mark ... is this why ?
Your ideas are most welcome and as you say it may end with just a rule for outside the ring until we get to the end of this with all interested views in we cannot know.
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Post by maxandpaddy on Sept 9, 2016 20:10:15 GMT
I feel for TSR over this...they're encouraging feedback so putting themselves in the firing line a bit. My two penneth for what its worth is that the clamp down is aimed at the warming in brigade which we've all seen (adults on tiny ponies) BUT they cant just single out the warming in without setting a standard across the board ...where its usually handled by the judges anyway
So its sticky tricky..cant do one without the other being involved TO MAKE IT FAIR
Nightmare
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Post by pipandwill on Sept 9, 2016 20:47:10 GMT
Having recently been in a awful position - not sure if I was referenced earlier on in this thread.
The REAL problem lies in the warming up areas, whereby small show ponies are ridden in by big adults. This is the welfare issue, not tall riders on m&m ponies whom where bred to carry farmers up and down hills! I had marks ( quite a few ) deducted because I was deemed to *big* for a Welsh C pony, this was in the conformation section, the pony had just jumped clear round a big hoys track, clearly not a 'welfare issue' when she'd managed to lug my fat arse round the course. Its ridiculous to allow judges to deduct points because they think someone is to heavy for the pony - and undoubtedly it will primarily affect amateurs.
There is no easy way around this, im not saying there isnt a problem, because there is. But allowing judges to deduct marks, or picking riders/ponies in classes and removing them because they are too big is not right! Whether it is said verbally or not, things like this lead people to have eating disorders. Drastic although you may think, the comments made to me were far from appropriate to be saying to anyone.
If this rule is enforced, I will sell up most of my natives as being tall I will probably be penalised like I already have been! Surely there are more pressing issues going in in showing? How about, severely overweight horses, ponies being ridden round in tack they cant wear in the ring, unfair judging, excessive make up hiding faults, lunging in for hours on end... the list is endless!
I apologise for the bitter post, but as I have experienced this first hand, those on my social media page can see that I am NOT to big/heavy for this pony, but I still spent £40 + entry fee + diesel to attend a show, for my pony to go brill but be penalised unfairly!
Eta- I take size 8 clothing, however look bigger than i am due to having a large chest, I am already very conscious about this, and have to invest in very expensive sports bra's, on the odd occasion I have used vet wrap but having to do it so tight means I have nearly passed out. This makes girls look bigger than they are, and would be another factor as to the judge deducting marks because of the 'overall picture', or having marks deducted because they are deemed to heavy. Absolutely ridiculous.
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Post by pipandwill on Sept 9, 2016 20:48:53 GMT
May I add to my above, I competed said pony ALL year, incl a week at bsps champs with not one single judge making any comment!
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Post by honeypot on Sept 9, 2016 22:01:06 GMT
When I hear people rocking on, usually mothers that they need to get a 16 hand horse for their daughter who is all of 9 stone, is about 14 and probably less than 5'4'', I often tell them they really ought to look at what the male eventers ride and taken to its conclusion most are, 'far too big for their horse'. A classic is William Fox Pit,http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/PnsFSvPEn4g/Badminton+Horse+Trials/PEouqCyENZv/William+Fox+Pitt in fact he looks just about 'too big' on any horse.https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=william+fox+pitt&biw=1366&bih=599&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwiszP7Im4PPAhXCJsAKHWrcD8kQ_AUIBygC#imgrc=_ But what ever the rider they have to carry 70kg which could be made up of dead weight, made of lead, I was about the same weight when I was eight months pregnant. Now some will say these horse are extremely fit, but most of these children and young people will not be that huge and if the pony is not fit enough to do a few circuits of trot and perhaps a couple at canter what on earth are we trying to achieve? A pretty picture that is not fit to do anything. My daughter hunted her 11.2 pony until she was twelve, couldn't tell you what she weighed but the pony kept up with the big'uns all day, and he was still able to drag us about when loading him to go home. How many riders in the ring are truly overweight to the point of it being a welfare issue? I would suspect not many, but no one actually knows, and I think the first thing should be proper research. The government is very hot on 'Safe guarding of child and young people', and before anything is done I think you need to speak to your local Safe Guarding team and have a rigorous policy on the abuse of CYP, including institutional and emotional abuse.
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Post by MrsShowing on Sept 9, 2016 22:24:56 GMT
Regarding the draft ruling that states where no mark sheets are used the judge should not place a pony if s/he feels the rider is too big, I have a sincere question. Apart from in HOYS qualifiers, for which TSR is not currently legislating, there are often not very many entrants in small breed classes. Certainly so at many local and smaller agricultural shows that are affiliated to TSR. In fact, I can think immediately of a handful of occasions just over the past few weeks where smaller shows with TSR qualifiers have had only one or two entrants in the small breed sections. No mark sheets are used for these. What is a judge to do regarding the ruling suggested above if there are fewer competitors than prizes and one of these competitors, perhaps the only one in the class even, falls foul of the weight/picture requirement in his/her subjective opinion??? Would you expect the judge to with-hold the prize? What happens if the judge awards the prize anyway? How effective is the rule then? Given that you've already said that the ruling does not, yet at any rate, apply to HOYS qualifiers, just to TSR affiliated classes, I should think this scenario I've described will often apply. Six places, more often than not fewer than six in the ring in a small breed class. So what is the point really? Will the results of the confidential judges consultation be shared with judges? I too am very interested in the research outcomes as I don't recall being asked about giving verbal feedback inside and outside the ring, which I am always happy to do. Perhaps I missed that survey. I was under the impression that some advisory guidelines were to be issued, not a rule imposed. Ultimately it is all highly subjective, variable, and therefore best left to the individual judgement of experienced judges. Actual weight can be hugely deceptive - the long-legged skinny rider can weigh more on the scales than the tiny but plump rider, one may have a podgy bottom centred in a small saddle, one may be sitting right back on the cantle to accommodate long legs, one looks skinny, one looks fat - so what is it that judges are supposed to rule for, actual weight, appearance of weight, fatness (which is not the same as weight), the fact of being an adult on a small pony, the fact of being a large adult on a larger pony. The whole thing is a minefield. And incidentally, I have judged where I deemed riders too big overall for the pony, both in weight, height and overall size ratio, and I have let them know this and placed, or not, accordingly. There is no need to make it a weight issue or to make it seem brutal or to prescribe additional rules. I always say, "I do like this pony, but for me, and I stress that this is very much about me and what I like, the overall picture is not as good as it could be; I would prefer to see this pony with a smaller rider." And smaller could mean shorter, lighter, or both depending on the rider - the rider knows exactly what I mean without me having to spell it out. Judges are perfectly capable of saying that, nicely, diplomatically, clearly, with a smile and an appreciation of the pony. Perhaps, TSR, it should be about advising judges how to word feedback - should they WISH to give it - ensuring that feedback is about what WE as judges/societies WANT TO SEE, not an accusation that YOU as a rider are too fat. IMO that would be better, and far more encouraging for competitors, than creating a stick with which you expect judges to beat competitors.
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Post by ilovenatives on Sept 9, 2016 22:45:00 GMT
Surely as has been stated above judges can already mark down if they believe someone isn't suitably mounted . This is causing my 4ft11 and 7 stone 2 daughter to become paranoid about her weight and to constantly weigh herself as she worries about being deemed to big for her chunky 11.3 section A . I'm not in a massive hurry to get her onto a bigger pony as she has joint mobility problems and sometimes finds things a struggle . I agree that the riding in of small ponies ( show ponies especially ) by massive jockeys needs to be addressed though . We always managed without anyone to ride my daughter's ponies in , I either popped them on the lunge or lead them around to let them settle until she was competent enough to ride in herself .
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Post by the showing register on Sept 10, 2016 0:44:33 GMT
Thanks for some very good comments. All judges on our list have received a survey by e mail. Horse Gossip is a good place for discussion and from these comments it looks like all round support for the outside the ring rule and a lot less for inside the ring so will add this all to the consultation report which will not appear untill end of November so plenty of time to keep debating it !
Speaking as a judge and not the person co ordinating the consultation, I think it is hard on exhibitors if some judges knock marks off and some dont with no consistency . I know all judging is subjective which is the cause of many threads on here but it might already be leading to a lower show mark than expected if say the judge had knocked 5 marks off for the overall picture and not mentioned it to the rider.
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Post by MrsShowing on Sept 10, 2016 10:56:14 GMT
Speaking as a judge and not the person co ordinating the consultation, I think it is hard on exhibitors if some judges knock marks off and some dont with no consistency . I know all judging is subjective which is the cause of many threads on here but it might already be leading to a lower show mark than expected if say the judge had knocked 5 marks off for the overall picture and not mentioned it to the rider. Well yes, I get that, but even if there is a rule there will still not be consistency because one judge's view of 'unsuitably mounted' will vary from another judge's view of 'unsuitably mounted.' At the end of the day, all judging is subjective and variable, whether or not there are rules and marks allocated to it. This is even the case in the highest levels of dressage where there are strict directives and a small number of available marks. I don't think that publicly labelling a person as overweight for the animal, for all the world to see and share via social media on the mark sheet, is the answer at all, because no matter what you call it, 'unsuitably mounted' or whatever, everyone knows what is meant. I think if the judge had knocked off marks for the size ratio in the overall picture - and really how often does this actually happen? Perhaps once in a series of classes at each show, at most - then it would be far better to give that rider some discreet, non-fattist feedback as I described above, and this is where your efforts should be focused, in helping judges to give feedback in the right way, just as we are encouraged to do with regard to obese animals. It seems to me that because of the fear of judge-bashing the suggested approach is verging on competitor-bashing. And please could I have an answer to my question about what one is to do when there is no mark sheet and fewer animals in the class than prizes available? If that can't be answered then clearly this has not been thought through properly at all.
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Post by MrsShowing on Sept 10, 2016 11:08:45 GMT
And again, I ask, will the results of the survey be shared with judges? I ask this because I did respond to the survey, but I thought that there must have been a different survey that I had missed because I don't at the moment see the relationship between the questions asked and the outcome, i.e. the draft ruling. It is best practice in the conduct of surveys to share not only the conclusions that one has inferred from analysis of the data, but also the raw data in graphical form. I think if you're going to go public with this sort of thing, and profess to be leading the way on key issues, then a more professional approach is desirable. I know only too well how research data can be manipulated to serve a particular agenda - I do this as part of my job - so I would like to see the full results in order to know whether and how far out of sync my own views might be from what are claimed as the majority views.
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Post by the showing register on Sept 10, 2016 11:55:39 GMT
Hi MrsShowing firstly I would be very happy to speak to you directly if you wish and thank you for your interest. We have had two surveys in the past year the latest one closes on the 19th September when we will send all judges on our list the results the first one was earlier in the year and we mailed all judges the results . The reason we put out a second draft quite quickly was that overwhelmingly judges did not want to speak to riders and this was a way round that. I have long impassioned e mails from judges saying how it wont work so this was a different angle to it.
If there are no marks and only say 3 forward then the exhibit would I presume be 3rd. This is very helpful comment as when embarking on something like this albeit with some eminent asssitance you cannot think of every angle or get everything right ...
Regarding the data I can assure you that I have no wish to doctor anything and I presume you did not mean that in your job you do ! After the 19th certainly before HOYS you will get a mail with the results this is from survey monkey and each result is shown as a percentage of participants. As you know the questions were designed to find out what action judges would be comfortable with and that is how we arrived at this second draft.
We have two seperate questions here inside and outside the ring. I am fairly confident we will add to our rule book an outside the ring rule but I feel the jury is out on the inside the ring. A lengthy consultation like this offers real opportunities for views to be heard that would not be aired otherwise.
At the end of November well before the 4th December I will publish a report on the consultation including data from all sources including HG.
Finally would you be interested in speaking on the 4th ? I need another judge to speak who has reservations. I hope I have answered all your questions.
Gail Chapman
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Post by the showing register on Sept 10, 2016 12:49:26 GMT
More for Mrs Showing ..In the TSR May judges survey the first question was ' When awarding marks should a proportion of the way of going mark be attributed to the overall picture of the pony / horse and rider ?'
185 judges responded 85.16 % answered yes 10.44 % said no 3.3 % had no view on the question
This led to the next survey when we asked how a judge would handle this in and out of the ring. This survey is still open.
The point I am making is if judges are already deducting marks because the 'picture ' is not looking good how is an exhibitor supposed to know unless you speak to them and the results of the next survey are strongly for not speaking to a rider especially a child. Several people have written in suggesting a column but this has been kicked out of touch on HG. So you can see a real conundrum and perhaps there is no answer ?
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