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Post by the showing register on Nov 4, 2016 13:49:05 GMT
On 4th December at 2 pm in the Grandstand Suite at Stoneleigh we are holding an open debate about Integrity/perception for Judges, Exhibitors, Show Officials etc. We want to debate what is acceptable and what is not.
We would like your questions as we know HG people have a lot of views !
We have a good panel of judges, officials, producers and amateur exhibitors and have invited all the societies to come along
Just post your questions on here or pm me.
Free admission ( suitably mounted debate in the morning ) let us know if you are coming so we have enough tea !
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Post by sjw87 on Nov 4, 2016 21:47:07 GMT
I saw this earlier and thought there would have been a fair few replies by now.
My first concern would be to ensure that not everyone is tarred with the same brush. Where is no denying that there is some amount of unscrupulous behaviour from all the various sides (let's face it, any 'deal' has to be made between two parties), it doesn't help the future of showing to insinuate that this is always the case.
I've said before and I've said again, for me the answer lies with greater transparency by providing either a better breakdown of marks and/or an explanation to why the placings are as they are. Let's face it, unless the judge is someone has never been within 20 feet of a horse previously, some 'connection' will usually be able to be found. Those who don't understand why they weren't placed will try and use the fact that the judge's uncle once had a goldfish and bought the fish food from a petshop in the same street as the winner's sister's window cleaner to try and claim there was biased judging.
In years gone by, the judge would come down the line and give you feedback. Nowadays sadly they don't (probably, and sadly understandably, due to fear of backlash!) which I believe massively contributes to the problem. All a judge has to do is make a brief comment alongside the marks and although the competitors might not agree with it, they will find it more difficult to try and insinuate wrongdoing. Unfortunately, more and more people think their horse has gone better than it has and unless they are told it was overbent/on the forehand/rushing/had incorrect bend, they will believe they should have won. If a judge has sufficient knowledge and experience to judge and are judging fairly then it should be very easy to put a comment of justification. It would also make it more difficult for an unscrupulous judge as they would have to lie to justify their placings whereas currently there is absolutely no justification required.
My other thought regarding breaking marks down further would also help competitors to work out where they have lost marks. The age old 'accuracy v's presence' arguments where people complain that a judge has ignored a wrong leg but the judge felt the overall impression of the horse outweighed the mistake could be avoided by having marks for accuracy (wrong legs, following a set show etc) as well as marks for overall impression (presence, turnout, overall picture - which yes, could include suitability of the rider) so that it is clear where marks were lost and gained. Likewise a section of marks for the go round as sometimes it appears to be completely forgotten when marking and of course let's not forget how important manners should be in a showing class (including in the line up) yet at present have to be deducted from the ride mark. Currently, a single ride mark and conformation mark gives absolutely no indication as to where marks were lost and gained.
For showing to have a future, judges need to be experienced in their field so breeders and competitors also judging should not be discouraged. In an ideal world, it would not be allowed for judges to compete in the same classes as they judge but I fear we would risk losing some of our best judges if that was brought it. After all, if someone's speciality is hunters then how much uproar would it cause if they suddenly judged a mixed m&m class without the relevant experience of the different breed types and standards?
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Post by sjw87 on Nov 4, 2016 21:53:49 GMT
Having replied, I realise I have not specifically answered your question of 'what is acceptable and what is not' as I fear that it is suggesting that no-one should have a social life. Whilst of course it's unprofessional for a judge to comment specifically on their placings on social media, I fear that, like in my example above, if too much emphasis is put on 'connections' rather than transparency, shows are going to have to start finding judges from Outer Mongolia as people have their belief nurtured that every 'like' on facebook has some underhand origin.
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Post by the showing register on Nov 5, 2016 7:07:48 GMT
Thanks! I do agree about seeing things where there is nothing to see. Should be a good debate.
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Post by bigmama on Nov 5, 2016 19:40:59 GMT
Perhaps the lack of response is due to the title, "Integrity in the Showring : questions please"
I mean, a person either has integrity or they do not. It's as simple as that.
Sadly, we now live in a world where integrity and good morals are frequently lacking.
How do showing societies and show organisers sift out and eliminate those lacking integrity, fairness and good manners on both sides of the fence?
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Post by the showing register on Nov 5, 2016 21:08:01 GMT
Good question bigmama it requires the will to do so ! Questions sent in so far include
Should judges compete and judge in the same section in the same year ( an old chestnut this one !) If you are a society council member /hold a senior post is it OK to judge/exhibit at your own Championship Show For assessing judges should the appointed assessors be independent ie not exhibitors or producers ? And loads in about Social Media of course !
CHAPS debated the first one today at their conference.
It is going over old ground for HG keyboard warriors who argue these questions all the time but it is a good thing to discuss these problems face to face sometimes.
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Post by delbel on Nov 6, 2016 10:44:40 GMT
I think sjw has a very good point about the breakdown of marks, I have heard a judge say that a pony that put in a small buck in a show was placed higher than one that was overbent or one that wrong legged, whereas another judge would not place one that had bucked, so some judges seem to have very different ideas on what errors during a show are worse than others! My sister was pulled top in a class many years ago, he wrong legged it was corrected immediately, we expected to be dropped we weren't, second place went to the judge to complain, who I might add is platinum judge for that show and is on every panel going, and her answer was that she deducted marks for his blip and he was still the superior horse in the class (not a mark sheet class) of course it was all our fault and daggers were drawn at us for the rest of show, maybe if there was rules that state errors can be made and points deducted but this needs to be transparent and consistent with all judges. Not sure that will ever happen and at the end of the day many competitors still expect to win even when they have made errors and are not honest with themselves. Also not only should competitors have a good understanding of the rule books but some judges too, maybe they should be tested on this annually. Conformation is a never ending debate and again competitors who one week get high conf marks with ponies/horses that they know have conf faults take great offence when they get low marks from another judge the week after who is keen on good conf instead of thinking hmmm they obviously spotted the fault. I personally think if you claim you are good enough and qualify to judge then expect to be judged and forums should be allowed to give an opinions on how they find a judge in a positive or negative but constructive way that way people have a heads up.
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Post by kateanne0 on Nov 6, 2016 17:17:58 GMT
Integrity is as bigmama says, you have it or you don't!
Transparency of marking is essential and long overdue. Long debated, so an old one, but please let's have some way of knowing what happened to make the show marks lower.
Home produced - another old one, maybe HP families need to 'register' their status when joining the Societies of their choice?
Amateurs - if a horse is produced by a professional, should the rider/owner still have amateur status?
I'm sure TSR must already have a long list of questions as so many have been put forward on a couple of other TSR threads?
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Post by 2connies on Nov 6, 2016 21:19:24 GMT
Wherever you have a competition like equine showing where the result depends on one or two persons' opinion,there will be situations arising which attract controversy.Its simply unavoidable.
Probably the system of having one judge for the ride etc and another judge for the conformation,is as near as we will get to having a perfect scenario.
I do think though that,sometimes,classes can be too large for many judges to cope with...for instance at the recent BSPS Olympia semis at Arena UK, breed classes had thirty or so ponies competing in each class and in such cases I can imagine judges sometimes get 'swamped' by sheer numbers and end up taking 'faces' into equation as well in order to fine tune their choices! The actual direct qualifiers the following day were probably much easier to judge,being half the numbers per class!
Just my observation of course,afraid I don't have a solution!
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Post by bigmama on Nov 7, 2016 15:35:28 GMT
Wherever you have a competition like equine showing where the result depends on one or two persons' opinion,there will be situations arising which attract controversy.Its simply unavoidable. Probably the system of having one judge for the ride etc and another judge for the conformation,is as near as we will get to having a perfect scenario. I do think though that,sometimes,classes can be too large for many judges to cope with...for instance at the recent BSPS Olympia semis at Arena UK, breed classes had thirty or so ponies competing in each class and in such cases I can imagine judges sometimes get 'swamped' by sheer numbers and end up taking 'faces' into equation as well in order to fine tune their choices! The actual direct qualifiers the following day were probably much easier to judge,being half the numbers per class! Just my observation of course,afraid I don't have a solution! I agree that large classes no doubt over face some judges and have also seen much larger M&M classes at Hoys qualifiers at Cheshire County and Derbyshire Festival with over fifty ponies in the Welsh D's some years. I always say, I wouldn't want to be the one to sort that size of class out. Judges must feel drained at the end of those marathons!
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Post by conniegirl on Nov 8, 2016 11:52:13 GMT
I think some judges do need clarification on who they should and should not judge as a few seem to have forgotten this. I also think that the societies should provide better guidance around judging "friends". A lot of societies provide guidance around judging family (i.e what constitutes family), judging those whith whom you have had financial dealings with (i.e buying horses from, lessons from etc) but nothing about the level of friendship.
for example. one that was debated on here earlier in the year. In my opinion and the opinion of a lot of other competitors, if you are close enough to a competitor to be throwing a party for them (or vice versa) then you should not be judging them!
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Post by serendipity on Nov 8, 2016 13:13:17 GMT
I think some judges do need clarification on who they should and should not judge as a few seem to have forgotten this. I also think that the societies should provide better guidance around judging "friends". A lot of societies provide guidance around judging family (i.e what constitutes family), judging those whith whom you have had financial dealings with (i.e buying horses from, lessons from etc) but nothing about the level of friendship. for example. one that was debated on here earlier in the year. In my opinion and the opinion of a lot of other competitors, if you are close enough to a competitor to be throwing a party for them (or vice versa) then you should not be judging them! I think this comes under the heading of Integrity and you cannot legislate for it. Regarding the extra marks suggestion -I definitely would not like to see this - it just makes things even more complicated and open to comment/disagreement. Also pity the poor steward -they have enough to do without being dressage writers. I do agree with the contributor regarding judges being open to being judged. I am not sure how this could be done as we obviously can't go back to the old way where judges were almost libelled on social media but I do think we have thrown the baby out with the backwater in that no-one dare say a word in case they are excommunicated from the showing societies.
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Post by haggis on Nov 8, 2016 13:29:06 GMT
I think some judges do need clarification on who they should and should not judge as a few seem to have forgotten this. I also think that the societies should provide better guidance around judging "friends". A lot of societies provide guidance around judging family (i.e what constitutes family), judging those whith whom you have had financial dealings with (i.e buying horses from, lessons from etc) but nothing about the level of friendship.
for example. one that was debated on here earlier in the year. In my opinion and the opinion of a lot of other competitors, if you are close enough to a competitor to be throwing a party for them (or vice versa) then you should not be judging them!
Dear Connie Girl very very well said - i fear that said incident has been put under the carpet and no action taken even though i believe there were written complaints sad day for showing
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Post by the showing register on Nov 8, 2016 13:51:06 GMT
I think some judges do need clarification on who they should and should not judge as a few seem to have forgotten this. I also think that the societies should provide better guidance around judging "friends". A lot of societies provide guidance around judging family (i.e what constitutes family), judging those whith whom you have had financial dealings with (i.e buying horses from, lessons from etc) but nothing about the level of friendship. for example. one that was debated on here earlier in the year. In my opinion and the opinion of a lot of other competitors, if you are close enough to a competitor to be throwing a party for them (or vice versa) then you should not be judging them! Dear Connie Girl very very well said - i fear that said incident has been put under the carpet and no action taken even though i believe there were written complaints sad day for showing A question for the afternoon debate is "to party or not ?" comments very welcome from the floor. I think the party issue and judges is still very much alive and I doubt we will see anything similar happening again as SM and us debating things like this make it generally unacceptable and the carpet is wearing thin ! Will post a link tomorrow with panels etc
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Post by haggis on Nov 8, 2016 15:01:54 GMT
Very well done TSR-for getting it out into the open Brilliant title "To party or not"
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Post by chloesmum on Nov 8, 2016 18:23:25 GMT
I think Bigmama's original comment is so true, integrity it something you have or don't have and very hard to legislate for in terms of judging and competing, it falls on both parties to have integrity. It is of course much easier to have rules in place for who should not judge who with regards to family; producing; business etc. but how do you make rules for those who chose to judge others that does bring 'integrity' into question? As has been already been said showing will of course have a network of friends, it would be sad if it didn't but this is also the one area that leaves a bad taste for people when people who are close friends i.e. go on holiday together; stay over the night before judging; godparent to children etc judge each other. I have no idea how you overcome this as it is down to personal integrity from the judge and competitor to not put themselves in this position. I am sure this has always gone on but with social media it has become more apparant. Way back this year when this was debated at length on here someone suggested an independent panel or code of practice which I thought was a good idea. Maybe a good idea to go back through the posts and look at the suggestion around this. So not really a question TSR but maybe a discussion point in should there be a voluntary code of practice or do judges feel this is already covered by the rules of the societies they judge for.
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Post by sjw87 on Nov 8, 2016 21:20:29 GMT
Kateanne brings up good points regarding home produced and amateur definitions as well as the 'who can judge who' issue.
Imo, one of the major issues is that the different societies all have slightly different definitions and it causes confusion. Yes, some people deliberately break the rules but in some cases, people also presume there is rule breaking going on when in actual fact there isn't even though it would be if it was under a different society.
Maybe it's time that for the future of showing, all the societies adopt the same definitions of HP, amateur and restricted classes as well as what prevents an exhibit/exhibitor from going under a particular judge. In an ideal world, as chloesmum says, there would be an independent panel to oversee this kind of thing but unless all the societies come together to follow the same definitions then it would be almost impossible.
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Post by Knowyourbreeds on Nov 8, 2016 22:03:45 GMT
I agree the definitions of novice, restricted etc should be made very clear so that everyone understands and starts from a level playing field. I digress though - a format whereby judges are encouraged to give reasons for their marks could assist in education and would maybe stop the comments - 'the judge is no good because (for example) they didn't place my amazing exmoor, they thought it was a dartmoor!" There needs to be some format whereby a judge can demonstrate that they can differentiate between a good and bad example of a breed - yes its difficult to judge a class of mediocre ponies who could be one of several breeds. People need to realise IF a pony is a really good example of its breed it should be impossible to confuse with another BUT we are often in the age of the 'unipony' a M&M that doesn't particularly shine as one breed but because it has a set of papers which state that its a highland then to its enthusiastic owner it becomes the best model of that breed in the world gathering a large fan club on the way who also think that all highlands should have a white foot and large star and cannot understand why they are bottom of the line when the nice judge at the local riding club show placed them first!
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Post by delbel on Nov 8, 2016 22:06:22 GMT
If the meeting is a success is there any chance of holding another up north maybe after Xmas?
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Post by haggis on Nov 9, 2016 7:02:09 GMT
a meeting up north would be fab - i keep hoping the showing council might move up north just for 1 meeting
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Post by Sponership on Nov 9, 2016 8:16:48 GMT
Sponsoring a class, that you then enter & win, I think there's been a fair bit of that this year. I think it's great that people are prepared to sponsor whole sections at Championship shows, but then to enter that section, not sure how that sits?
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Post by ponymum on Nov 9, 2016 10:26:02 GMT
Not so much related to "intergrity " But I have bleated on and on about the scenario where the 2 judges stand and conferr on the go round about like / dislikes etc. This should not happen! The ride judge is there to award a mark for performance / manners and the Conf judge for conformation and type. So they should not come together (as I do think ride judges deduct marks for type and it is not in their remit to do so.) until after all the sections have been completed and the stewards are adding up the marks. A lot of people are falling out with showing and it is easy to see why when it costs so much - How can we unify regd costs and memberships?
I do agree that some judges/friends flaunt their connections on social media hence why people get so hacked off when said friends go under the judge and Win ....so again we need concrete guidelines on what is deemed unacceptable. I would be interested in watching the debate online , is their a possibility of this?
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Post by haggis on Nov 9, 2016 12:15:58 GMT
pony mum - i think you have struck a cord here i once saw that the conformation judge would pull in as they said that was the performance judges remit well done also at this years Heritage one conformation judge wanted to watch the shows before doing her job - chief steward said no what dies it matter if you are doing conformation if in its show it bucks like stink - that does not alter its conformation also some judges i have seen after top 5 have been the conformation marks get worse the further down the line you go so heaven knows how the poor pony at the bottom manages to walk !
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Post by bigmama on Nov 9, 2016 12:19:02 GMT
Not so much related to "intergrity " But I have bleated on and on about the scenario where the 2 judges stand and conferr on the go round about like / dislikes etc. This should not happen! The ride judge is there to award a mark for performance / manners and the Conf judge for conformation and type. So they should not come together (as I do think ride judges deduct marks for type and it is not in their remit to do so.) until after all the sections have been completed and the stewards are adding up the marks. A lot of people are falling out with showing and it is easy to see why when it costs so much - How can we unify regd costs and memberships? I do agree that some judges/friends flaunt their connections on social media hence why people get so hacked off when said friends go under the judge and Win ....so again we need concrete guidelines on what is deemed unacceptable. I would be interested in watching the debate online , is their a possibility of this? Is performance not also dependant upon conformation and type?
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Post by haggis on Nov 9, 2016 12:38:06 GMT
yes it does - the ability to go on the correct bend etc - but you shouldnt loose marks during conformation if you bucked or spooked in your show also say you were a bit strong on the go round and you were drawn near the bottom - should that alter your conformation mark - no the performance judge should take that you were strong on the go round and use their marks
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Nov 9, 2016 12:44:32 GMT
In regards to judges/producers/competitors socialising together and throwing parties and inviting X Y Z, if they are actual friends why do said partie only seem to fall in the show season surely if they are you friends and you want a get together the winter time is when you'd expect it?
i know some judges etc still do socialise during the winter but there are some well timed get together during the summer
Conformation does affect way of going, an incorrect pony will not go aswell so the mark would reflect it but type is often personal preference
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Post by CarolineNelson on Nov 9, 2016 14:13:42 GMT
Not so much related to "intergrity " But I have bleated on and on about the scenario where the 2 judges stand and conferr on the go round about like / dislikes etc. This should not happen! The ride judge is there to award a mark for performance / manners and the Conf judge for conformation and type. So they should not come together (as I do think ride judges deduct marks for type and it is not in their remit to do so.) until after all the sections have been completed and the stewards are adding up the marks.
A lot of people are falling out with showing and it is easy to see why when it costs so much - How can we unify regd costs and memberships? I do agree that some judges/friends flaunt their connections on social media hence why people get so hacked off when said friends go under the judge and Win ....so again we need concrete guidelines on what is deemed unacceptable. I would be interested in watching the debate online , is their a possibility of this? Ponymum, I'm very sorry, but feel I must oppose you here. In the scenario when ONE Judge adjudicates, he or she get to judge BOTH sections. So, when TWO Judges are invited to judge, ideally a 'blend' of their knowledge/thoughts/preferences is what is desired. In order to achieve this, what possible harm is there in them making a loose selection of the best ones as viewed on the 'go round'. To have just the 'Performance' Judge make the initial 'pull' would be very hard on the 'Conformation' Judge who would not, by your preferred method, have had any chance to comment on the initial selection. After all, the "marks" are divided 50/50. It is a huge help to try to be on the same 'page' as one's co-Judge. Furthermore, your comment and here I quote you, "as I do think that ride judges deduct marks for type and it is not their remit to do so . . "
"Ride" Judges MUST be able to take "TYPE" into consideration. For example, in the M&M classes, "way of going within Breed Type" is paramount - and to judge animals simply on performance would without fail, eventually create the dreaded scenario of the composite, well behaved, lacklustre mongrel-looking-creature. Some sections are pure 'type' - eg: the Show Hack, Cob and Riding Horse - the Show Pony v Show Hunter Pony. Perhaps look at the wider picture. TSR, I'm sorry if this has gone off track!
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Post by ponymum on Nov 10, 2016 12:20:40 GMT
Yes , this is slightly off track , BUT this secnario happens time and time again.
Bigmama - NO , I disagree, The performance section of the show is that and that alone! The conf judge awards the marks for type and should have the correct knowlede of breed type etc ! what does it matter in what order the horses are lined up? The marks are there to select the winner.A pony with perfect conf and a fabulous show will come up no matter what - surely?
Caroline Nelson - Exactly! The marks are divided 50/50 so each judge has enough of a say within the marks to produce their winner (why should they discuss it prior to judging? You cannot tell on the go round if a pony is back at the knee has curbs and its feathers arent silky!) I feel that sometimes the go round is overlooked , for example, at a county show last year a pony that Bolted in the go round was still in the top 4! Can you explain this from a judges point of view? Eta - I am not saying the conf judge shouldnt watch the go round , but I just think they should each be seperate so they can judge what they see infront of them without any influence from each other.
Perhaps a question we can put to this debate is - " What is the importance of both judges conferring on the class during the go round?" And another which I have suggested - Should we have appointed stewards who observe the Hoys qualifiers and if they feel an error of judgement has been made by the judge , they have the authority to intervene ?
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Post by sjw87 on Nov 10, 2016 13:03:53 GMT
Let's not confuse type with conformation. They are not synonymous.
The conformation should be judged 'according to type' and the performance should also be judged 'according to type'.
For example, a cob should not have a 'daisy cutter' action so that should be considered in the performance mark regardless of how well it otherwise goes. Or a lead rein pony is expected to go differently to an open pony.
Likewise, if a stunning riding horse was entered in a hunter class then although it's conformation may be wonderful as a riding horse, it should be marked down as it's not the correct conformation for the class 'type'. This is extremely important in breed classes as otherwise the breed standards will decline.
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Post by bigmama on Nov 10, 2016 13:18:48 GMT
Yes , this is slightly off track , BUT this secnario happens time and time again. Bigmama - NO , I disagree, The performance section of the show is that and that alone! The conf judge awards the marks for type and should have the correct knowlede of breed type etc ! what does it matter in what order the horses are lined up? The marks are there to select the winner.A pony with perfect conf and a fabulous show will come up no matter what - surely? Caroline Nelson - Exactly! The marks are divided 50/50 so each judge has enough of a say within the marks to produce their winner (why should they discuss it prior to judging? You cannot tell on the go round if a pony is back at the knee has curbs and its feathers arent silky!) I feel that sometimes the go round is overlooked , for example, at a county show last year a pony that Bolted in the go round was still in the top 4! Can you explain this from a judges point of view? Eta - I am not saying the conf judge shouldnt watch the go round , but I just think they should each be seperate so they can judge what they see infront of them without any influence from each other. Perhaps a question we can put to this debate is - " What is the importance of both judges conferring on the class during the go round?" And another which I have suggested - Should we have appointed stewards who observe the Hoys qualifiers and if they feel an error of judgement has been made by the judge , they have the authority to intervene ? Caroline Nelson phrased exactly my thoughts, ie. "way of going within Breed Type" and yes, performance has also to be dependant upon conformation and type within the breed ... sjw87 has also worded far better than me For as long as folk try to box and label subjective judging, they will always be at odds with showing and may be better finding a more clear-cut equestrian discipline. I cannot foresee any major changes in the near future as there are too many 'in' people deeply entrenched in the system who will fight to keep it as it is. However, the issue of integrity is very interesting and I look forward to hearing how it is discussed @ TSR Showing Debate in December. As far as I can see, the only way for fair judging is for those lacking integrity NOT to be asked to judge any major qualifiers or for competitors to vote with their feet and stay away from those qualifiers they feel will not be to their liking.
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