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Post by More Money on Feb 3, 2011 12:21:15 GMT
I was wondering if anyone had any advice or experience of the council putting business rates on your private stables?
We have 5 stables at the bottom of are drive, all used for the families horses. We have had a letter from the Valuation office to say they are visiting next week to look if they can put business rates on us.
I have been told by a friend who has stables on land with no house that they have quoted her £200.00 a stable. We have a house metres away from the stables though.
Any advice welcome.....
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Post by beachbum12 on Feb 3, 2011 12:46:17 GMT
I used to work a few years ago doing rates on equestrian places ..if its all private it should NOT be on business rates ... but the law may have changed I dont know but back then private use only was most definately normal domestic rates...the second you get even one livery it becomes commercial and also if you use your horse for any kind of business purpose ie producer/ dealer/ lessons etc etc ..it becomes business rates ...good luck if you can prove all your horses are purely for private pleasure use then you should be ok .
I used to fight cases for equestrian centres as they were rating the big buildings like schools etc on big rates similar to factories etc off sq footage and obviously a indoor school does not generate same income as a big factory the same size...mostly these cases won and were successful and got reductions as all rating used to go off sq footage of a building ..hence the ridiculous figures quoted there for a mere stable... argue your case that there is no financial gain from your stables and no income and therefore are just part of your domestic property.
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Post by teri on Feb 3, 2011 12:47:11 GMT
I am pretty sure that if your stables are private use and you don't have anyone paying you to use these stables then they are not able to charge you any rates!
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Post by Admin on Feb 3, 2011 12:49:01 GMT
If all the horses and ponies are in your name (i.e. the passports have your name and address on them) and the stables are in the same plot as your own dwelling you should be ok. I take it you have planning permission for them!
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Post by been there on Feb 3, 2011 13:10:11 GMT
www.voa.gov.uk/council_tax/stables.htmUnfortunately the fact that your horses are not a business doesn't count. It is rates on the buildings and if the stables are not within the curtilage of your house, you will be liable. See link above. If the horses are used for agricultural purposes, ie logging, stalking then they would be exempt. If you can clear any areas for the day, fill them up with gardening equipment, junk , vehicles, you will get that building off, same if you have a tack room, empty it, say you keep all tack in the house for security reasons.
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Post by More Money on Feb 3, 2011 13:32:16 GMT
Thanks for you advice. Yes we have passports for them and Yes we have planning but doubt this will make much different from what we have heard They are very close to the house but I doubt not close enough. We do also have a tack room and a barn that has hayledge in. I guess we will be charged for the barn as well? It's dreadful! Owning horses and having a hobby is expensive enough without the council stealing more money off us!
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Post by Admin on Feb 3, 2011 13:36:34 GMT
Yes they will charge you for your tack room and your barn. They also charge you if you have a sand paddock. If it is has flood lighting they will charge you extra for that as well.
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Post by More Money on Feb 3, 2011 13:56:22 GMT
Yes we have a arena....................... which has lights but they are coming down at the weekend (they were put up with clips to allow them to be removed) We spent so much money on planning etc for the arena we can't believe we know have to pay for it. Does anyone have any rough price guides for what they pay per stable or arena? Thanks again for the advice!
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Post by Admin on Feb 3, 2011 13:59:47 GMT
Its done on area. Our arena is 40mtrs by 40mtrs and they wanted £1600 a year Cant remember about the stables but it was a small fortune
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Post by More Money on Feb 3, 2011 14:07:39 GMT
We have a 20x40m arena. I guess next week is going to bring us endless more bills to pay out!
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Post by Admin on Feb 3, 2011 14:12:10 GMT
We have a 20x40m arena. I guess next week is going to bring us endless more bills to pay out! Whatever they hit you with appeal against it. That will give you time to put your case forward. Get advice off people that have been through the appeals procedure, that is the best way to get the amount down. I appealed against the VOA and my rates dropped 75%
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Post by More Money on Feb 3, 2011 14:37:51 GMT
Thank you Admin.
We will appeal and hope for the best!
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Post by crazyshetlandlady on Feb 3, 2011 15:03:21 GMT
Good luck with it, its ridiculous that you have to pay to use your own stables, school ect.. x
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Post by been here on Feb 3, 2011 15:11:13 GMT
If you can it will most definitely be worth your while to empty your tack room and also can you park some vehicles in your hay shed, anything you can do to make it non horsey, will get those buildings off. I understand that you can get a samll business rebate on the rates, I am told the form is easy to fill in and you will get a good lot of it back. ( shows just how ludicrous things are, it is accepted that the horses aren't a business, yet you are eligle to claim back as small business )
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Post by More Money on Feb 3, 2011 15:35:25 GMT
been here - do you know who you claim it back from? Sounds interesting! You very right they admit we aren't a business yet allow you to claim it back - utter madness
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Post by teri on Feb 3, 2011 16:14:14 GMT
I am so suprised at this, I have a yard with 10 stables and an areana but I do not pay anything to the council, They know we are their as we have applied for planning permission but been turned down. Feel quite lucky now, really feel for you hun!!
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bryn
Full Member
Posts: 268
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Post by bryn on Feb 3, 2011 17:26:50 GMT
What timing!!!!!....We have recently re-built our stables. Never been rated before! BUT suddenly they (The Council) have arrived and assessed us for rates.
This is a stable yard, 8 stables and small barn for hay & straw. Just our horses, our hobby. Letter arrived yesterday..........they want an absolute fortune, would be cheaper to keep them all at full livery. Anyway we made a telephone call, as they opened their doors this morning.
'We are not a business, we don't make money, blah, blah!!! You get the drift....
Anyway - assessor is returning - to re-assess (What did she do with the information from her first visit when she was told all this then?).
We can only live and hope that the amount she has recommended we pay is drastically reduced to come into line with our meagre salaries.
If they want me to pay the same as all the others down our Lane, the one's with houses, and living accomodation then they must play ball and let me build one as well. Not to mention that we have no facilities, no decent road, just a pot-holed gravel Lane, no lights (no electricity), no dust-bins, no nothing. Won't I be having lots of fun demanding services for the rates they expect me to pay. HoHoHo!
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Post by loop holes on Feb 3, 2011 18:45:53 GMT
just a few loop holes that might help you all
your hay barn stores hay that you have grown and cut yourself this is then not rateable - how would they know
your arena is a loafing area its main use is turn out for laminitic ponies - is therefore not rateable
you are allowed stables for private use - so one for each family member not rateable
if you keeop a colt or a stallion - you are a stud so get stud releif 25% i think - they cant tell a gelding from a stallion
you would also be entitled to small business relief
I appealed and applied all of the above to my largeish yard - and pay peanuts
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Post by Admin on Feb 3, 2011 19:10:33 GMT
You have to have more than 2.5 hectares of grazing to get stud relief. You must also use the land for grazing agricultural animals for 6 months of the year.
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Post by elc on Feb 3, 2011 19:37:59 GMT
If you feed the hay you store to a horse you will still get rated regardless of whether you have grown it or not. Store farm machinery in it ASAP.
The rateable value is multiplied by 'a multiplier' which for stables is 41p i think, so each stable rated at £200 would attract an actual bill of £82 per year. Then you get small business rates relief which is a simple matter of filling in a form from VOA. But filling in this form is like admitting to having a business & agreeing to pay the rates so be careful, dont fill it in until you have the lowest ratable value possible. An outdoor arena is charged per sq. M, again multiplied by the multiplier! What area are you in? You can search on the valuation office website for comparable properties to see what the going rate is per stable, arena, tack room etc. Tack rooms may be cheaper than stables it's probably worth checking.... VOA admit private stables are a 'grey area' so keep fighting... We have just finished fighting ours and have a rateable value reduced from £12k to just over £4..... There's a lot you can do!
Unfortunately it is highly likely you will get a rates bill. Stables are not considered agricultural and everyone with stables should get a bill. The ones that don't are just lucky for the moment!
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Post by More Money on Feb 3, 2011 20:01:22 GMT
Thank you so much for all this advice. Loop hol/Ela - you have given us some very wise information. We do have one stallion and over 2.5 hectarces but we don't graze other animals... We are based in Cheshire
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Post by Admin on Feb 3, 2011 20:30:43 GMT
Thank you so much for all this advice. Loop hol/Ela - you have given us some very wise information. We do have one stallion and over 2.5 hectarces but we don't graze other animals... Yes you do graze other animals A local farmer friend puts his sheep on your land through the winter when your horses are not using it. Oh and brick or block stables are rated higher than wooden ones
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Post by elc on Feb 3, 2011 21:36:22 GMT
So the average prices for for Cheshire is £180 per loose box, Then the other stuff is charged per sq m - 80p per sq m for an outdoor arena, (less if no fencing), tack room £15, store room £10, hay store £10-20 depending if open fronted etc etc etc.... Add all that up and round it down for your rateable value, multiply RV by something like 41.4p and that gives your bill. If your RV is below £6000 small business rates relief is set to 100% until October 2011 which means you pay nothing up till then. After that you will get a percentage knocked off, not sure how that works but its def worth claiming. You can also get deferred payment for your first year to help ease you into the habit of paying business rates!!! They are so helpful haha!!!
They advised me to just pay the bill and they would refund any overpayment after the appeal. Yeah right, have you ever tried to get any money back from the council? Don't fall for that one! We had numerous court dates slapped on us, bailiffs, siezures of vehicles and goods, you name it.... but i still refused to pay. After the appeal which i feel i have won, they removed all costs off the bill, all bailiff fees, lifted all seizure orders etc etc etc and backdated the rateable value for over 12months so stick to your guns!
Have you got a holding number? That wouldn't hurt either.....
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Post by Stud Farm Owner on Feb 3, 2011 21:45:37 GMT
Hi, we have a stud farm over 2.5 hectares, 17 stables, large storage barn and an arena 'fattie paddock' lol and we are exempt from rates totally so i think you should be ok Also have a couple of sheep and other farm animals which are pets wandering about ;D
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Post by Stud Farm Owner on Feb 3, 2011 22:02:31 GMT
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Post by guest 51 on Feb 4, 2011 10:13:12 GMT
Your ponies are your pets they cannot charge rates for housing for pets.
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Post by More Money on Feb 4, 2011 10:46:51 GMT
Great Advice we are looking into all options and today have applied for a holding number - might not help but worth a try. VOA told us if the stables fall beyond the perimeter of your garden then we can be charged. They fall about 3 metres over. Bryn - words fail me on your case! What you have come through and manage to rebuild is amazing and it's a utter disgrace that think they can ask for money. It does seem that anyone they has applied for planning in the last year maybe 2 years are the people they are hitting. I guess planning permission for a stable or arena tells then exactly were horses are kept
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Post by Admin on Feb 4, 2011 11:26:02 GMT
It does seem that anyone they has applied for planning in the last year maybe 2 years are the people they are hitting. I guess planning permission for a stable or arena tells then exactly were horses are kept This is just the beginning. They (Deffra/the government) have made passports compulsory for a reason. The idea is that every horse/pony in the country can be traced to its owner, so when an official turns up to the place where you keep your horse/pony (and they will) they are able to check who the correct owner is. If the owner of the stables/yard does not own all the horses/ponies on site then they are a business. That being the case you are liable for business rates and you should carry the relevant insurances and public liabilities. You should also be registered with HMCR as you will be liable for taxation. Once the new animal welfare act comes into force, you will also have to conform to minimum standards, probably in line with the BHS. Those that don’t conform to a minimum standard will have to spend to update or close down. Looks like there will be big changes coming in the future.
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Post by beachbum12 on Feb 4, 2011 11:36:56 GMT
gawsh things have changed since I worked in this line...back then 10 years ago or so you definately did not have to pay business rates on private stables and land and arenas for private use... seems they are out to get us ...always thought this passport thing had an ulterior motive or two ] Appeal appeal appeal and stick to your guns the average VO officer wont have a clue about horses and stuff so a gelding can become a stallion for the inspection, stick your most well looking ponies on the menage as a fatty paddock, and borrow a few sheep and do all the things suggested above ...grrrrr makes me so angry ...we have all already been taxed on our hard earned cash that buys our horses land stables etc so what makes them think they can tax us again ...if its private use its private use and NOT a business...therefore business rates should NOT apply
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Post by elc on Feb 4, 2011 14:23:53 GMT
They like to call them non-domestic rates rather than business rates, so therefore that covers any stables where a business is not run.
I want to call in the court of human rights!!! They have forced me to take liveries I do not want to help with the rates bill, how can that be right??? ;D
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