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Post by amumwithapony on Feb 4, 2011 14:32:42 GMT
I think (though am not up on it) that if you have a couple of cloven hoofs knocking around the place and a holding number you are classed as a small holding and therefore exempt from rates. if thats right then you need a couple of sheep or a couple of pet goats to be exempt.....wanders off to google it all....
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Post by Admin on Feb 4, 2011 14:37:19 GMT
I think (though am not up on it) that if you have a couple of cloven hoofs knocking around the place and a holding number you are classed as a small holding and therefore exempt from rates. if thats right then you need a couple of sheep or a couple of pet goats to be exempt.....wanders off to google it all.... To keep an agricultural animal you have to have a holding number. Even if it is a pet pig, goat or chicken. If not you are breaking the law.
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smiggy
Junior Member
Posts: 117
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Post by smiggy on Feb 4, 2011 14:55:15 GMT
Blimey how confusing We have 40 acres and a holding number and registered for single payment scheme-farm thingy! Do I need to now buy a stallion as well to avoid paying rates or can I point to my scarey gelding with flashing teeth and let them check him out if they dare ;D
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Post by amumwithapony on Feb 4, 2011 15:23:16 GMT
Someone I used to work with had what he called a smallholding. Know he had a holdings number and kept a couple of sheep and a few pigs but I am pretty sure he didnt pay rates of any kind.
Would that have been because he had a holding number and a few livestock animals? Thats what I was thinking of earlier.
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Post by pencaedu on Feb 4, 2011 15:37:59 GMT
This is truly frightening. What do they consider to be within the curtilage of your garden? This is going to do wonders for the price of equestrian properties.
I have always allowed our local farmer's sheep to graze with our horses in the summer & often have his cows pop in for a visit too (no, I'm not joking - our gate opens on to the mountain & is open for the horses & anything else that feels like it to wander in at will) - do you think that will count for agricultural animals???!!
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Post by Tallyho on Feb 4, 2011 15:40:36 GMT
Ok, so help me understand this.
My horses are at my parents house, my mum has one and i have two!
We have a hay barn and a tackroom and another stable which houses my mums menagerie of dogs!
We have chickens and geese (no holding number) they're only ex battery things to lay a couple of eggs!
Anyway, are you telling me that we need to have a few sheep on the place to avoid paying rates and get a holding number?
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Post by elc on Feb 4, 2011 15:53:38 GMT
No, you still have to pay non domestic rates on anything that is not classed as agricultural! The only way to not pay rates is get rid of the horses and push the stables over! Most don't pay rates simply because VOA don't know about them yet..... Usually when the first man in the street get slapped with a rates bill the neighbours follow pretty quick..... Usu due to feeling of why should I pay when you don't, and the first man shops in the rest!
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Post by More Money on Feb 4, 2011 16:01:58 GMT
Your right Ela - I doubt the holding number or agricultural animals will make a difference. I would say it's a matter of time before other people get caught out by this dreadful rule. I know Bryn and myself have both applied for planning just over a year ago so the councils (different councils) seem to be using that as a way of knowing who has horses. I have a feeling they will twist it which ever way you try to avoid the costs. The 'lovely' gentlemen is visiting on Wednesday. I will let you know how we get on.
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Post by More Money on Feb 4, 2011 16:02:56 GMT
Sorry It's elc not ela!
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Post by snoopyp on Feb 4, 2011 18:11:16 GMT
any planning permissions granted are automatically passed to the valuation office by the council.
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Post by Clarification on Feb 7, 2011 14:46:53 GMT
Can I just clarify, because not a great number of prople know this. The Valuation Office - who are a Government Agency - value your premises, domestic and business and set the Rateable Value.
Any appeals are lodged against the VOA - NOT the local Council. You need to lodge an appeal, its free to do and realatively simple to complete the form and gather your evidence. Would suggest you need to show similar set ups that are not rated, RV is lower or Google case law for equestrian properties where rates have been discharged.
The Local Council (Boroughs and Distircts NOT County Councils) actually get b*ggar all in income revenue from Business Rates and Council tax, its something stupid like on avaerage £2 a property (domestic). The rest goes to your Councty Council, Central Government and services such as Police (vital). Yet Local Councils always get the blame. And yes they do pass information on to the VOA on new PP, but its not to be sneaky, its called "Joined up Government". Good Luck
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Post by More Money on Feb 9, 2011 14:11:10 GMT
We have had the visit from the jobsworth at the valuation office... He measured the stables, noted the arena which is already had details for (guessing from the planning)and measured the yard. He didnt bother with the barn nor any other outbuilding he was just concerned about the stables. He informed me that all planning applications do get passed on to the VOA and that is how they find where horses are kept. He told me there was nothing sneaky about this I suggested that we would have been better off putting it down without planning then we wouldn't be in the situation we are in and his answer was YES I had all the passports for the horses in the yard, his answer was 'I am not interested in them' I said but these proves we aren't running a business and all horses are owned by this household he then replied well the stables fall out of your garden curtilage then you are still liable to be charged non domestic rates - business or no business. I asked him who decided if they fell out of the garden curtilage and his answer was 'not me' yet 10 mins later he told me they looked they they fall beyond the garden curtilage. We will wait for his bill to land on the doorstep and then decide the next move. We have been advised to seek a chartered surveyor for advice on this but will wait to see what they decide to rate us on first.
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Post by sageandonion on Feb 9, 2011 15:44:26 GMT
This is so unfair, I know loads of people with stables and they don't pay any rates on them at all and they don't even live near them.
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bren
Full Member
Posts: 297
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Post by bren on Feb 10, 2011 10:57:32 GMT
hm, we've just got our annual rates, last few years have applied for relief by saying they are not used, have accepted that information, though this year filled in same info and they are wanting to make a date for a visit , will have to put the foals out!!
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Post by MF not logged in on Feb 10, 2011 15:35:56 GMT
Not logged in as work computer won't let me but this is grossly unfair.
We had planning passed last year and literally the minute the application was approved the ratings officer rang me demanding to come round to assess. I told him the building would hardly have been built in 2 days and if he wanted me to pay rates then he'd need to get me approval to use it for business use.
he backed right off when i argued that the council cannot have it both ways i.e. charge business rates but not allow business. We made a mistake and should have applied for an agricultural building and then filled it with stables later. You live and learn.
Planning is MUCH cheaper if you apply for an agricultural building
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Post by viking on Feb 10, 2011 16:14:33 GMT
The family dogs, outdoor kennel and run next, most probably.
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Post by louisegelly on Feb 10, 2011 16:35:17 GMT
Its done on area. Our arena is 40mtrs by 40mtrs and they wanted £1600 a year Cant remember about the stables but it was a small fortune Why?? Its is your own property you have paid what you needed to pay and you got permission where needed, why do they need to have more money off you for something that belongs to you that you paid for and only you uses and its on your own property... ARGHHH how annoying
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Post by mf on Feb 11, 2011 15:28:38 GMT
Its done on area. Our arena is 40mtrs by 40mtrs and they wanted £1600 a year Cant remember about the stables but it was a small fortune Why?? Its is your own property you have paid what you needed to pay and you got permission where needed, why do they need to have more money off you for something that belongs to you that you paid for and only you uses and its on your own property... ARGHHH how annoying because its an easy stealth tax isn;t it?
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Post by McDark on Feb 11, 2011 23:22:41 GMT
If my experiences with everyday VOA folk is common, they'll be itching for an excuse not to rate you. They don't want the hassle. So if these stables are adjoining your domestic area and it's made very clear they are only for your own enjoyment, I'd say you stand a pretty good chance of not having them separately rated as non-domestic.
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Post by More Money on Feb 15, 2011 15:21:46 GMT
We really wish they didn't want the hassle We have been rated at £170.00 a stable and rated for the use of OUR OWN arena and a tack room (even though the tack got removed and was classed as a feed room)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then to make the most stupid situation worse, we are going to back date for the stables! - 5 years back dated The 'jobs worth' that visited us said the decision of the stables falling outside of your garden curtilage was not one he made yet they are billing us like they fall beyond that curtilage and no one has confirmed where this curtilage falls.
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Post by poop on Feb 15, 2011 17:59:55 GMT
My advice to you would be to get an Expert to appeal on your behalf, they will know the regulations like the back of their hand. I think VOA are just trying it on as Im sure a percentage of people they harrange like this will just roll over and pay it! Try someone like ACORUS - not sure if they deal in rate appeals, but they are equestrian experts and would point you in the right direction if they cannot help you!!
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Post by viking on Feb 15, 2011 18:26:18 GMT
Curtilage, appears to mean stables built as an adjunct to, and within the yard of the original house. ie. for carriage horses.
That is what was said to someone having just gone through this process.
It does seem to be rather arbitrary however.
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Post by Soli on Feb 16, 2011 13:35:15 GMT
To add to this debate, as someone who is in the middle of being targeted by my local council, is a worrying development and may indeed fire many councils to get as many people within their catchment. Their vigor to pursue us may be matched only by the wish to get increase what we pay once it is their finacial interest. This was published recently in property week This month the government is expected to begin consultation on its Local Government Resource Review, which was delayed from January. The aim is to formulate plans by July to reform the UK business rates system.
The government is considering radical proposals, such as giving councils the power to set business rates locally and retain more of the rates in their area. It is also expected to herald the introduction of tax-increment finance.
This is on top of rating changes in the Localism Bill, in which the government wants to give councils more powers to set business rates supplements, give companies rate relief at the council’s discretion, and give rate relief to small businesses automatically.
If the government brings in powers to let councils set business rates locally following the forthcoming review, this would herald the end of the national uniform business rate (UBR).
“That is something that the coalition government is clearly going to consider,” says GL Hearn head of rating Blake Penfold.
The UBR was introduced in 1990 – alongside the hated “poll tax” – to give predictability to the rating process and prevent councils across the country setting different rates. Mark Henderson, head of rating at DTZ, says moving away from a national UBR would be a “regressive step”.
There is concern in the Confederation of British Industry, too. At a hearing on the Localism Bill on 27 January, CBI senior policy adviser Jessica Bauly said: “Businesses value the business rate system because of the predictability, certainty and uniformity that it offers them.”
Read more: www.propertyweek.com/professional/uniform-business-rate-overhaul-ahead/5013069.article#ixzz1E80gykLq propertyweek.com I am still unable to find any Surveyors who are aware of this issue to help pursue this. It needs case law to determine these isues
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Post by More money on Feb 16, 2011 16:07:50 GMT
Soli - you are very right it does need case law.
We have a Surveyor visiting next week but are trying hard to seek someone that has the experience and great knowledge of this 'grey area'
We have contacted CORUS today but they seem unsure of the issues also.
We feel if they hadn't back dated us we may have agreed to pay the amount but to be back dated the 5 years for the stables is just beyond words.
If we agree to pay the amount how ever little it may be, surely year by year it is going to increase? The jobsworth who has called to inform us of the charges said we can apply for business relief (even though we aren't a business) and that will pay 50% of the bill BUT what happens if they stop this bonus? We have a huge bill to pay year on year!!!!!
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Feb 16, 2011 16:40:35 GMT
This is taken directly from the Valuation Office Agency website.
Stables - Council Tax Or Non-Domestic Rates?
You may be liable to pay business rates on your stables even if you do not use them for commercial purposes.
The term ‘business rates’ actually refers to non-domestic rates, which is a form of property tax payable on all property that is not classed as domestic. Domestic property is liable to council tax. Stables will be classed as non-domestic, and liable to non-domestic rates, unless:
•they are used to stable horses that are worked on agricultural land for an agricultural purpose. Horses used for leisure purposes - commercially or otherwise - do not fall into this category. Hence their stables do not qualify as agricultural buildings, no matter where they are situated – be it on a farm or not. Further details on the exemption of agricultural premises can be found under Schedule 5 to the Local Government Finance Act 1988. •they are considered to be domestic and come within the council tax band of the living accommodation. Stables are only likely to be included within the council tax band if they are sited within the domestic curtilage of that property and used for private purposes on a domestic scale appropriate to the house. In this respect, the domestic curtilage is usually considered to be the same as the garden area surrounding the house. Further details on this definition of domestic property can be found in section 66(1) of the Local Government Finance Act 1988.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Feb 16, 2011 16:52:19 GMT
More Money - I would be looking at speaking to a land agent/surveyor with equine bias. It may be unfortunately that there is nothing you can do - however, land agents and surveyors do get involved with appeals on a number of rateable issues and probably that is your first port of call. I don't know what part of the country you are in - but if you google rural and agricultural surveyors in say Cumbria it will fetch you up a list.
Good luck!
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Post by teemak on Feb 16, 2011 20:35:26 GMT
Lucynlizzysmum is correct, and unfortunatly the govenment is skint !
Google earth has a lot to answer for!!!!! It has made it incredibly easy for local authorities to rake in some cash.
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Post by ethelwellread on Jan 22, 2014 20:34:09 GMT
I would recommend you read the Local Government Finance Act Section 66(1)as it clearly states that if you enjoy your stables on a domestic scale with your home then the stables are domestic.
The valuation office 'fraudulently' state that (excuse the paraphrasing) stables are only domestic if they are located within the curtilage of your home AND are enjoyed by the home owners, whereas the law states that stables are only domestic if they are located within the curtilage of your home OR are enjoyed by the home owners. Therefore, you only have to satisfy the 'enjoyed with the property' bit for your stables to be classified as DOMESTIC property.
Good Luck
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Post by comanchediva on Jan 22, 2014 22:37:14 GMT
I would recommend you read the Local Government Finance Act Section 66(1)as it clearly states that if you enjoy your stables on a domestic scale with your home then the stables are domestic. The valuation office 'fraudulently' state that (excuse the paraphrasing) stables are only domestic if they are located within the curtilage of your home AND are enjoyed by the home owners, whereas the law states that stables are only domestic if they are located within the curtilage of your home OR are enjoyed by the home owners. Therefore, you only have to satisfy the 'enjoyed with the property' bit for your stables to be classified as DOMESTIC property. Good Luck This thread is 3 years old!!!
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Post by ethelwellread on Jan 23, 2014 23:06:27 GMT
It is simple. If you have stables (and sand school, etc) at home then you won't have to pay Business rates regardless of whether they are located in your garden despite what the VOA say!
It is not what the VOA say that counts it is what the law says. So GOOGLE the law (s66(1) LGFA 1988) and read it.
66 Domestic property.
(1) property is domestic if—
(b)it is a yard, garden, outhouse or other appurtenance (ie stables,etc) belonging to or enjoyed with your home
NOTE IT SAYS belonging to OR enjoyed with. This means you don't have to satisfy 'belonging to' ie within the curtiledge, but just 'enjoyed with' to be considered DOMESTIC PROPERTY and not subject to Business Rates.
NOTE the VOA change the wording of the law and paraphrase it to read: 1) property is domestic if—
(b)it is a yard, garden, outhouse or other appurtenance (ie stables,etc) belonging to AND enjoyed with your home
ie they state that you have to satisfy both criteria: 'belonging to And enjoyed with' This is frankly, HORSESH1T
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