gethin
Junior Member
Posts: 69
|
Post by gethin on Nov 18, 2011 16:48:28 GMT
Pennaeth Tai a Gwarchody Cyhoedd/ Head of Housing and Public Protection Chris Taylor INVESTOR IX PEOI Elin Jones AC / AM Plaid Cymru Ceredigion Ty Goronwy 32 Heol y Wig / Pier Street ABERYSTWYTH SY23 2LN Gwarchod Y Cyhoedd I Public Protection Swyddfa Ranbarthol / Area Office Y Parc / The Park Y Drenewydd / Newtown Powys SY162NZ Ffon/Te\: 01686617524 Ffacs/Fax: 01686617614 E-bost /E-mail: ken.yorston@powys.gov.uk Eich cyf/ Your ref: 260-19728 Ein cyf/ Our ref: PP/TS/M/KMY/GR Dyddiad / Date : 7 November 2011 Os yn galw gofynnwch am / If calling please ask for : Mr K M Yorston Dear Ms Jones BRIGHTWELLS WPCS SPRING SALE AND INVESTIGATION INTO CRICCIETH STUD PONIES Thank you for your letter dated 19 October 2011 regarding the above sale. I can assure both yourself and your constituent, Mr Williams, that Powys Trading Standards have taken the complaints about this sale most seriously, as we would with any complaint of this nature, and the investigation has now concluded. I can confirm that the matters investigated have been dealt with by way of advisory letters to all those concerned. By way of background you may be interested in the following facts:- • Officers from Powys Trading Standards were not present at the sale on 14 May 2011 due to the funding cut of some £94,000 in our animal health funding for the year 2010/11 which severely hampers our ability to attend such out of hours events. • Vets were present at the sale and were satisfied with the welfare of animals sold on the day. No welfare concerns were reported to us immediately following the sale. • Passport misdemeanours have been dealt with by way of written warning and arose as the result of a misunderstanding based on previous advice. You will appreciate the difficulty in investigating matters after an event has occurred and that the gathering of evidence can be problematical in such circumstances. The most important issue here was the presence of a vet at the sale and in the absence of physical and documentary evidence to support allegations of welfare problems leaves us with nowhere to go with potential action. Gwasanaethau effeithiol ar eyfer calon werdd Cymru Efficient services for the green heart of Wales www.powys.gov.uk O Argraffwyd ar bapur wedi'i ailgylchu * Printed on recycled paper 2- You will also be interested to know that there have been two recent horse sales at Builth Wells and Brecon which have been monitored closely for compliance with the various identification and welfare requirements, both of which have passed by without incident. We have worked closely with the police, charities and other animal welfare enforcement organisations in a multi agency approach which appears to have been effective at these sales and demonstrates the importance of our attendance at such future sales. You will also be aware that the constraints on public finances may mean that this is not always possible. K M YORSTON TRADING STANDARDS MANAGER I hope this answers your query. Yours sincerely
|
|
gethin
Junior Member
Posts: 69
|
Post by gethin on Nov 18, 2011 16:49:35 GMT
Thought I'd share this with you I've taken a while to scan it into an acceptable format to post. It may not be exactly as I received it but it is all there.
So we need not worry about breaking passport laws as they are only misdemeanours if as a result of a misunderstanding. I was always of the understanding that ignorance is no defence in law.
How many persons or organisations have broken the passporting laws?
|
|
|
|
Post by natlee93 on Nov 18, 2011 18:15:28 GMT
i'm a little confused as to what its all about ? i always go to the autumn cob sales i love it there havn't been to their other sales for a little while mind  |
|
|
|
Post by scotslady on Nov 18, 2011 20:56:50 GMT
Natlee93 .This relates to the sale of ponies from the Cricieth Stud which took place following completion of the WP&CS Official Spring Sale.These included 2 ponies which were scouring and one very thin mare suckling a strong healthy foal which resulted in a vast volume of sensational publicity, largely generated by people not even present at the Sale.
It appears some 10 of the 50 plus Cricieth ponies were moved from the stud to Builth without passports.Apparently applications for their passports had been received by WP&CS in their birth year, but without details of their markings or evidence of microchipping. As normal where information is missing the applicant was notified and the applications held on file pending receipt of these details.
On arrival at Builth the offending ponies were microchipped by Brightwells vet and their silhouettes completed and these now complete applications were hand delivered to the WP&CS, processed in the normal way and passports issued in due course.
Whilst it was against the law to move these ponies prior to them being actually passported there was obviously no intention not to passport them and to me it appears Trading Standards have, for once ,taken the common sense approach to this breach.
Previously Gethin and his associates have falsely accused WP&CS staff of completing the markings of these ponies and also fastracking the completed applications and then conversely of undue delay in the issue of some.
In these times of severe fiscal hardship it is true that there is not a Trading Stadards Authority in the UK that has any budget for policing horse passport legislation(which incidentally is an EU requirement aimed at traceability of horsemeat for human consumption) and Defra also believe that there are over 250,000 equines over two years old in the UK that remain unpassported ,and they also have no powers or budget to enforce the legislation.
|
|
gethin
Junior Member
Posts: 69
|
Post by gethin on Nov 18, 2011 22:18:54 GMT
Oh dear must have touched a nerve.
Will reply later, just come back from watching Scarlets win at rugby.
|
|
|
|
Post by amumwithapony on Nov 19, 2011 8:11:01 GMT
I wouldn't expect trading standards in this case to 'police' the matter, rather the PIO, which in this case was the WPCS.
It all seems to me to be swept under the carpet in that letter. It is stating that as long as the vendor 'intended' to register the ponies it doesn't matter that he didn't and that it was OK to break the law.
I also recall in this case that rather than the passports being issued 'in due course' there were some new owners without passports for many weeks, if not months.
With regards to the 'funding cuts of £94K' I would have thought that the membership fees and registration fees should have been used to 'police' these sorts of events. Does the WPCS not budget sufficiently enough to allow for welfare officers to attend even its own sales? Surely that should be a priority for any breed society, to attend and monitor the breed sales, checking welfare at a very minimum and also paperwork and transporting rules?
I don't understand what the difficulty is in investigating the matter 'after the event' regardless of what 'advice' is alleged to have been given? I thought the passporting/chipping laws were pretty straight forward. You can't move an animal without its passport, you can't sell an animal without its passport and if the animal is the right age, it has to be chipped?
Seems straightforward enough to me.
With regards to the physical documentation and evidence on the condition of the animals, there were enough photos around just after the sale to investigate. And surely enough eyewitness accounts of the animals. With regards to the on site vet I'm sure there main priority was to let these ponies have a chance somewhere else. Knowing the reputation of the stud involved I'm sure the vet was aware that if the ponies went back to the stud they wouldn't stand a chance. At least of they were sold they stood a fighting chance of finding somewhere better to live.
Shame on the WPCS. Once again a serious breech of rules and a serious scandal is brushed under the carpet .
|
|
|
|
Post by jebeth on Nov 19, 2011 10:22:50 GMT
Very well put amumwithapony.
It would be so helpful if lawbreakers informed the authorities before they commited the offence so they could investigate it before it happened. There has to be a comedy series in there somewhere!
Thanks for posting this information Gethin. Sadly it is not a surprise.
J
|
|
sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
|
Post by sarahp on Nov 19, 2011 10:38:10 GMT
I'm giving no opinion of my own saying this but I think legally it is the job of Trading Standards to police the law regarding passports rather than the PIO, and I read the original letter as being that it was Trading Standards who were suffering from budget cuts, not WPCS. Whether WPCS take any measures regarding those concerned is up to Council and not a legal matter as such unlike the passport situation. Two different bodies with different responsibilities in the matter.
|
|
|
|
Post by poneydestiny on Nov 19, 2011 11:34:58 GMT
Dear Scotslady,
You seem to be very knowledgeable on the details of the affair. Thank you. No it was not the "volume of sensational publicity" that resulted in World Horse Welfare's intervention, but the state of the animals, which were put on public parade by the aforementioned Stud. Photos and eyewitness reports attested to the conditions. WHW do not have owners sign over animals if there has been no problem believe me, as they have enough to handle just addressing animal mistreatment cases.
The laws on passporting are very clear, and when one breaks those laws it is at the risk of a 5,000£ fine, and that is applicable to the owner, transporter, and organisations taking unidentified animals under their care.
When you have a large consignment of welsh ponies many looking similar, how does the attending veterinarian ascertain which foal has come from which mare and tie the foal into the correct passport? Or doesn't that really matter? How do I, as a purchaser know for sure exactly what bloodlines I have purchased based on a passport/microchip issued when the foal is far from the mother? Would I be liable for fraud, if I then sold the products of this purchased foal should I breed from it, and present lines which it might/might not have?
Passporting/microchipping is not just for slaughter/human consumption issues, but to correctly identify owners on abandoned horses, prevent stolen horses and provide for correct bloodline identificatio, to name just a few other reasons.
|
|
|
|
Post by poneydestiny on Nov 19, 2011 11:36:12 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by jebeth on Nov 19, 2011 11:40:58 GMT
You are correct, it is Trading Stardards job to police the law. It is someone's job to police the piles of ragwort growing all over this country too! These are just a couple of jobs that seem to have pretty low priority.
The WPCS may be a PIO but it is also the Welsh breed society and on that alone it should be taking some responsibilty for its membership's conduct and the welfare of the ponies and cobs it is paid to register. Surely?
j
|
|
|
|
Post by scotslady on Nov 21, 2011 17:17:54 GMT
Trading Standards is the authority for ensuring compliance with passport legislation as passports are issued by over seventy different PIO's and also policing welfare standards at sales and markets.
Auctioneers are responsible for ensuring that every equine presented at their sales has a valid passport.
As all the animals at the Cricieth Sale were passed as fit for sale and no prosecutions for passport or welfare transgressions have been made I believe it would be very difficult for the WP&CS to take action against Cricieth without risking a repeat of litigation under European Human Rights Law which in the past resulted in large scale legal and compensation costs against the Society.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2011 17:28:38 GMT
As all the animals at the Cricieth Sale were passed as fit for sale and no prosecutions for passport or welfare transgressions have been made I believe it would be very difficult for the WP&CS to take action against Cricieth without risking a repeat of litigation under European Human Rights Law which in the past resulted in large scale legal and compensation costs against the Society. Oh well that's ok then - and gets the WPCS off the hook very nicely. Scotslady i honestly don't pretend to know a millionth of the legal aspects of this case or half as much as you do. But I know animal neglect when i see it  |
|
|
|
Post by nagrags on Nov 21, 2011 20:05:29 GMT
There seemed to be a HUGE amount of publicity surrounding this sale and everything went silent - Is this the end of the matter?
|
|
|
|
Post by haylage on Nov 21, 2011 20:47:19 GMT
Well if those ponies were fit for sale, maybe the trading standards and the WPCS should come and see the pictures of the ones that didnt make the sale but were taken from this evil man and brought to the WHW at Blackpool. The state of the poor colts was disgusting. I have been to see the regually since they arrived......................now and only now starting to look something like.
The local trading standards dept were quick enough to come and see my lame pig, when some know it all reported him.........he has been lame since birth!!!!!!!! so while the plonker was with me, I dragged him up and down the lame reporting and showing him all the properties with ragwort!! 2 well known skinny horses, and a bl00dy partridge in a pear tree...he wont be back, to much hard work there for him!!!!!!!!!! in a word 'WORTHLESS JOBSWORTH'
|
|
|
|
Post by poneydestiny on Nov 22, 2011 6:37:13 GMT
Following the public outcry and dismay at the condition of the Criccieth ponies passed through the public Builth Wells sales, by the attending Veterinarian and WPCS Welfare Officer, and allegations regarding the conditions of ponies kept privately by Mr Evan Lloyd Evans, the WHW in conjunction with the RSPCA investigated the matter, resulting in the public sign over of some ponies. It is up to WHW and the RSPCA to monitor the situation in an ongoing manner and members of the general public to notify them when and if the situation deteriorates.
A Trading Standards investigation was done on the fact that 10 foals were delivered and put up for sale without microchips and completed passports, which is in conflict with existing legislation (up to 5,000£ fine) and which is only allowable for specific semi feral ponies, in specific geographic areas, and in the specific derogation sales at Brecon. But apparently neither the owner, the transporter, Brightwells, nor the WPCS were aware of this so a warning letter was issued "as a result of a misunderstanding based on previous advice" according to the text of the letter from Trading Standards.
The positive outcome is that public sensitivity has been raised and people are reacting to blatent disregard for the very good animal welfare laws already in place, and insisting that they be applied. Yes, Trading Standards, this does mean perhaps more vigilence for your operations, but as the saying goes, it is the squeaky wheel which will get the oil, and if that is what it takes then I believe the general public has demonstrated that they will no longer be a silent majority when it comes to animal cruelty and general disregard for laws in place,. Thank you for your ongoing surveillance at the various public sales, etc., which demonstrates your committment to ensuring that such cases are few and far between. It would also be helpful to see the major players (Societies, Auction Houses, etc) take a pro-active role in ensuring adherence across the board and we are starting to notice some auction houses taking this very seriously with printed warnings in their catalogs etc. So yes, after the hue and cry, although it was quiet during the investigations, the end result was a more positive one for the future of the equines and we are sure people will continue to react and remain vigilent on these issues for the benefit of all
|
|
|
|
Post by cheshire on Nov 23, 2011 20:20:52 GMT
From Phnomstud's post and other information it appears that Cricieth signed over only yearling colts to WHW. In the current climate when section A yearling colts ,even in good condition, are selling in markets for £10 or less they must have been very relieved to have them taken off their hands, as it would certainly have cost more than their value to enter them and transport them to a sale, disregarding the effort this would also have required. This action on it's own, without removing any breeding females ,cannot lessen further potential welfare problems.
|
|
kayjayem
Happy to help....a lot
Posts: 10,046
|
Post by kayjayem on Nov 23, 2011 21:58:42 GMT
Totally agree Cheshire. If that was the case it just helped him out and gave him a bit more breathing space  |
|
|
|
Post by daisycutter on Nov 23, 2011 22:38:27 GMT
Lets be honest about all this,there are to many ponies been bred,they all have to go some where,yes there are people willing to pay £10.00 to £15.00 to give them a good home,but quite a lot end up back in sales.Why keep breeding these poor little mites its soul destroying to see them herded about at the sales.
|
|
kayjayem
Happy to help....a lot
Posts: 10,046
|
Post by kayjayem on Nov 23, 2011 22:42:00 GMT
Exactly so to eleviate this "man" from his yearling colts is doing him a favour.
|
|
