Breeding healthier dogs film

[nici]

The link below is for a film narrated by Clare Baldwin, on breeding healthier dogs, which may be of interest to breeders or anyone with an interest in genetics and inherited conditions.

My friend Julie is featured briefly, along with Fiona, the LUA (low uric acid) dalmatian she imported from the US to start a breeding program here, to help eliminate the problem of high uric acid & bladder stones, caused by a genetic mutation present in all dalmatians except the LUA dalmatians descended from a pointer outcross in the seventies. Other breeds of dogs are not affected by this particular condition, however other inherited conditions are covered in the film.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrWjVFKuAg8

[dazycutter]

interesting video.... Only this year we have had to genotype our breed for PRA RCD4 gene and this will eliminate night blindness.

the most interesting point in the video is that cross breeds should also be tested for inherited conditions not just pedigrees.

[sarahp]

Good point - so many people think cross breeds are automatically lacking inherited problems but it's not the case.

Haven't had time to watch the video yet but isn't it a good thing we now have the genetic testing for many conditions to enable us to avoid/eliminate them in time if breeders apply themselves.

[B_31]

Kennell club are hypocrits (within some breeds)!!.... watched 5 mins of the video as i havent time to watch the rest.


Advocate "healthy breeding"....have they looked at certain breeds recently....

example of a few;

gernman sheperds (show types) back - there shouldnt be 2 types but there is... one wouldnt be capable of doing a days work

pug; breathing/nose

sharpei - i saw one first hand 2 days ago - pedigree, it could bearly breathe.


example of a few breeds which are judged at crufts, which imo shoulnt be there until they have sorted the breeds problems out

its all about looks at crufts...some breeders seem to forget a dogs health is priority.

I

[jeanslater]

Re -edge of reason(cant be bothred watching the vid, I know i'll probably scream and pull my hair out)
Its not the breed but the individual breed societies which allow these things to happen, after all the kc is only a central register if we were to be honest .
If loss of type/ hereditary problemsfaults etc) are allowed to happen and are openly encouraged within the breed shown by 'example' who can blame the general public/ breeders/exhibitors , you only have to look at historical records and pictures to see how breeds have evolved and changed dramatically within the recent past.
One man campaigns even if they are right never achieve anything.

Though an interesting point about crossbreds, which can carry all kinds of defects many of which can be seen in the 'pedigree' ancestry ie jack russel type,of which many pure/crossbred type carry that cute jack russel hop!!!!

[nici]

Jan 19, 2012 13:41:47 GMT sarahp said:

Good point - so many people think cross breeds are automatically lacking inherited problems but it's not the case.

Yes if you randomly cross two breeds, each of which carries an inherited problem, the poor puppies could well end up with both.

I don't know much about inherited disease in other breeds, have only been educated about dallies, as my mother used to own a couple of them and my friend breeds them. The significance about "normal" dalmatians is that every single one is High Uric Acid - the Low Uric Acid gene has been lost from "purebred" dalmations over the years. I believe the only other mammals that are HUA are chimps and humans - yes we suffer with bladder stones too!

The LUA breeding program - with the outcross to the pointer now 17 generations back - is the only programme in place to reintroduce this gene into the breed, but the dalmatian breed clubs in both the US (where it began) and the UK fought against it every step of the way. The American KC refused even to allow the issue to be debated, until after the UK Kennel Club agreed (after much lobbying) to register my friend's LUA dalmatian Fiona, which she imported from the US. There are now a handful of LUA dalmatians in the UK, owned by responsible breeders, looking to continue the LUA breeding program here.

2 of the breed club's arguments were:

- LUA dalmatians are not pure bred and therefore can't be good examples of their breed. Well since Fiona has been in the UK she has won multiple challenge certificates and become Champion in her own right, being the only LUA dalmatian ever to compete at Crufts
- Dalmatians have another inherited problem, bilateral deafness and this could be more prevalent in LUA litters. I think there have now been 3 or 4 LUA litters born in the UK. Of these, every single pup has been tested and found to have bilateral hearing. Looks like a pretty good average to me, although admittedly the sample size is still small

Hopefully advances in genetics will be used positively to help eradicate these genetic conditions and improve the health and well being of pedigree and cross breed dogs. But in some cases the breed clubs need to open their minds to the scientific findings and positively seek a way to overcome the conditions, even if - as in the LUA dallies - this means an outcross to a breed that doesn't carry the genetic defect.

While I can understand the clubs' desires to preserve the breed standard and heritage of their breeds - as would any breeder of native ponies or other pure bred horses - surely the health and well being of our dogs is of prime importance.

[kayjayem]

Sounds good. Interesting that the LUA dalmations are descended from a pointer outcross, good job those poor puppies didn't inherit problems from both breeds. It just goes to show that all crossbreeding isn't bad.

[jeanslater]

Breed societies are too quick to diss introducing new blood to their gene pool , it takes but 3 generation to stabilise the blood by taking from the new blood introduced the very best it has to offer . To some people its a step back, which it is to a point as it takes time, but its also a huge step forward. Composites should be avoided but there is nothing better than going back to grass roots to help eliminate inherant problems.

Its the people in power who restrict breeds by pushing forward what can only be described as 'freaks' and setting them up as good examples, I've seen it in ponies and I've seen it in dogs.

[sarahp]

The outcrossing needs to be done carefully and with backup genetic testing if available, and then monitoring of results as appears from nici's post to have been done for dalmatians. Out of pure interest, is the deafness connected in any way with a particular colour pattern - pure white animals can often be deaf, as can equines with the splash pattern, but I've no idea if that relates in any way to spotty dalmatians!

We bought our last cocker puppy twenty odd years ago when the breed society were addressing the then recently understood hereditary kidney problem, caused by a single recessive gene. At that time the only form of test was that of an animal having produced an affected offspring, which showed it carried the undesirable gene - there was no DNA test available - and carriers were required to be placed on a register to that effect. I've no idea if there is a test now or not, as I said that was our last cocker and they have been pets, I'm not a breeder. At the time, I did a lot of digging to make sure we got a puppy that would not be affected, and succeeded, she lived to a ripe old age.

The much more recently addressed Fell Pony problem did score in that a DNA test was developed and used. My point here was that in both cases the breed societies concerned did all they could to address the problem, even if not all individual breeders did. For both these though, it was a single gene problem with enough reservoir of the healthy gene available for it to be bred out with care, which appears not to be the case for dalmatians, hence the need for a careful outcross to be introduced into the breed. In the cases quoted by edge-of-reason it is more a question of official breed standards and show judging, the qualities quoted will I'm sure be polygenic and so need to be addressed by selective breeding. This doesn't mean they are any less deserving of being addressed and I'm sure in some cases are being - is it just me or do boxers have longer noses than they used to?

I'm no dog expert, just a boring genetics freak!

[dazycutter]

interestingly enough, our breed society has encouraged us all to genotype for PRA RCD 4 gene by offering all members a significant discount with the AHT fees.. so not all breed society's are bad.

[sarahp]

Good for them!

[dazycutter]

but the problem is, until the KC decide not to allow puppies to be registered unless they are clear, some breeders will continue to breed from both affected and carriers...

I am thrilled my pup is clear ;-)

[sarahp]

I can't understand why breeders will do that, I wouldn't with the ponies.

[B_31]

Jan 19, 2012 14:24:30 GMT jeanslater said:

Re -edge of reason(cant be bothred watching the vid, I know i'll probably scream and pull my hair out)
Its not the breed but the individual breed societies which allow these things to happen, after all the kc is only a central register if we were to be honest .
If loss of type/ hereditary problemsfaults etc) are allowed to happen and are openly encouraged within the breed shown by 'example' who can blame the general public/ breeders/exhibitors , you only have to look at historical records and pictures to see how breeds have evolved and changed dramatically within the recent past.
One man campaigns even if they are right never achieve anything.

Though an interesting point about crossbreds, which can carry all kinds of defects many of which can be seen in the 'pedigree' ancestry ie jack russel type,of which many pure/crossbred type carry that cute jack russel hop!!!!

I know, i did a presentation in uni about bad dog breeding as it is a subject i feel strongly about


I bought a crossbreed (spaniel x collie) - she cost me the grand sum of £50 as she was an accident (dont tell her tho as shes a beautiful accident)!

Unfortunately shes inherited bad hips, (mild displasia), bad wrists and a couple of other bad things

im in no way saying pedigree is healthier but at least there is tests out there to try and eliminate the "bad stock" from breeding


In regards to the KC, especially crufts, i honestly think if judges stopped "praising" badly breed dogs for their health, e.g the pub/shepherd (only breeds that spring to mind) then over the next few years, we can bring back healthier dogs/joints and better breeding.....

I find it discusting watching a GSD (such a stunning breed)!, traipse round with an extremely sloping back looking like it could never do a days work in its life


just my 2 cents.

[sarahp]

There was a very young GSD in our dog training class a few years ago and this one certainly couldn't have done any work, it could barely manage the puppy class and had to walk up a ramp into the back of its owner's car to go home when any other dog could have jumped. I was horrified.

We too have a wonderful accident, also costing £50 at 7 weeks old - in our case collie dam was found by a wondering travelers' saluki lurcher. She came with a dodgy hip which seems to cause her no pain, we have had it checked out, but you can just see her favour it from time to time. Our old, carefully bred collie, also had bad elbows and eventually hips but I must admit the cocker spaniels were fine!

[dazycutter]

Jan 20, 2012 15:51:45 GMT sarahp said:

I can't understand why breeders will do that, I wouldn't with the ponies.

money.. pure and simple...

I agree about the GSD.s they do suffer, but I am not sure about the comment on the pup going up a ramp. I would never let mine jump in or out of a car until they are mature and fully developed, in fact mine dont go off lead till they are at least 12 months old,

now what does infuriate me is the part bred puppy breeders, and before you jump on my back about this, firstly i adore a lot of the cross bred dogs and they can bring out the best in their breeding BUT....

there is no jurisdiction on people who do this.

I can only breed 1 litter a year. (rightly so)
I cannot breed after the bit*h is 8 years old (rightly so)
I can only use dogs that are genetically clear from CLAD, PRA RCD2 and soon to be PRA RCD4.
It costs a lot of money to register the litter with the KC
I have a hip scoring done to rule out HD (costs a lot)
it also costs to become an accredited breeder with the KC
It costs to maintain your affix annually with the KC

on the plus side, I am confidant I am breeding healthy stock that should improve the breed which I love.

its time they took account and sorted their breeding programmes out in order to promote healthy puppies with no inherited conditions.

I have had many a discussion about this with people who have X breds and who breed them and when they continue to command a price of £350 upwards to £700 for some X breds, it makes a mockery of the lengths we go to to ensure genetically healthy stock.

Maybe if the X bred world was governed, then we would see a reduction in the puppy farmers and unwanted dogs.

[B_31]

Jan 20, 2012 18:16:09 GMT dazycutter said:

Jan 20, 2012 15:51:45 GMT sarahp said:

I can't understand why breeders will do that, I wouldn't with the ponies.

money.. pure and simple...

I agree about the GSD.s they do suffer, but I am not sure about the comment on the pup going up a ramp. I would never let mine jump in or out of a car until they are mature and fully developed, in fact mine dont go off lead till they are at least 12 months old,

now what does infuriate me is the part bred puppy breeders, and before you jump on my back about this, firstly i adore a lot of the cross bred dogs and they can bring out the best in their breeding BUT....

there is no jurisdiction on people who do this.

I can only breed 1 litter a year. (rightly so)
I cannot breed after the bit*h is 8 years old (rightly so)
I can only use dogs that are genetically clear from CLAD, PRA RCD2 and soon to be PRA RCD4.
It costs a lot of money to register the litter with the KC
I have a hip scoring done to rule out HD (costs a lot)
it also costs to become an accredited breeder with the KC
It costs to maintain your affix annually with the KC

on the plus side, I am confidant I am breeding healthy stock that should improve the breed which I love.

its time they took account and sorted their breeding programmes out in order to promote healthy puppies with no inherited conditions.

I have had many a discussion about this with people who have X breds and who breed them and when they continue to command a price of £350 upwards to £700 for some X breds, it makes a mockery of the lengths we go to to ensure genetically healthy stock.

Maybe if the X bred world was governed, then we would see a reduction in the puppy farmers and unwanted dogs.

i fully agree

i adore my little crossbred mut. BUT theres no way on this planet id have gone out and searched for her type/cross!!! It was a neighbours spaniel getting off with her mum (collie)! ;D ;D ;D

wonderful mistake...but sadly at a cost!



If idiots stopped buying mongrels/crossbreeds, there would be no market anymore

but a "rare" c*ckerpoo etc is FAR too tempting.....

[kayjayem]

I'm one of those idiots! I have a labrador x poodle(I won't say labradoodle as I'm not interested in the name) She is bred from hip and eye tested parents and after owning several pure bred poodles she fits my requirements much better as she retains the poodle characteristics but has a lower maintenance coat, and I don't apologise for one minute being an idiot and would a buy another one ABSOLUTELY give me one good reason why I shouldn't!

modified to add my first dog was a lab x spaniel who was an accident but lived to 17yrs and only saw a vet for her vaccinations until arthritis got the better of her. Best £2.50 I ever spent(it was in 1978 when I bought her )

[jeanslater]

'Accidents' ?? infuriate me, there is a vet injection to avoid unwanted pregnancies. There is no such thing as an accident its bad management simple as that. I wont go into the money thing, that annoys me also .
Bad breeders, back street breeders, puppy farms?? puppy farms in this day and age??? are not needed and shouldnt be allowed. commercial farming is for feedstuffs not pets.
Wrong people in control of these societies and breed clubs who push forward inferior dogs for their own personal gains or their friends are wrong . some breeds are totally unrecognisable form what they used to be with 'selective breeding' breed standards altered to suit, its wrong but its goes on in all breeds of animals, being right doesnt cut it , the majority rule, especially if they hold some kind of authority or position.
Its a sad world full of backscratchers and others seeking approval.

[Milliesmum]

Another idiot here.

[viking]

Some of the best dogs I've ever had have been of mixed parentage, so I guess I am another idiot !

You pay your money and take your choice!

[dazycutter]

my first and best ever dog was a X bred.. she was fab.. I adored her and always will...

nothing wrong with them at all...but lets get the breeding of them more regulated..

KJM, sounds if your puppet came from very responsible breeders...

I dont think the argument here is if they are X breds or pure breds... it the poor breeding that is to blame...

[kayjayem]

Jan 21, 2012 0:10:46 GMT B_31 said:

If idiots stopped buying mongrels/crossbreeds, there would be no market anymore

but a "rare" c*ckerpoo etc is FAR too tempting.....

Dazy, I think that was pretty to the point To be honest a lot of people breeding the crosses are responsible out of sense of duty not because they are regulated and forced to be. I don't believe that regulating of breeders of crossbreeds would make a jot of difference to puppy farms which, in the main, breed pure bred dogs from any old dog & bit*h. Whatever stipulations the breed society or kennel club have for registering breeding stock or their subsequent puppies there will still be inscrupulous breeders who will carry on and then sell the purebred non-health checked puppies at bargain prices. Many purchasers will disregard the health status for a bargain either due to ignorance or thrift.

[dazycutter]

KJM, couldnt agree more.... but until something is done about it, it will continue. At least the breed society's are trying to reduce the defective gene pool... well, they are in my breed anyway..

p.s. I adore doodles.. would have one any day of the week.. LOL

[kayjayem]

Maybe it's the buyers who need educating too. I don't know how it would be done but if there was someway of getting the info over to the general public it would help.

[viking]

Well said KJM, both points.

Closing puppy farms would be a step in the right direction, but, I don't see that happening somehow.

[suzee]

If Joe Public had listened many many years ago to the advice given not to buy from a puppy farm/dealer/pet shop they would have gone out of business and this sorry state would not
still be happening.

[B_31]

Jan 21, 2012 1:01:03 GMT kayjayem said:

I'm one of those idiots! I have a labrador x poodle(I won't say labradoodle as I'm not interested in the name) She is bred from hip and eye tested parents and after owning several pure bred poodles she fits my requirements much better as she retains the poodle characteristics but has a lower maintenance coat, and I don't apologise for one minute being an idiot and would a buy another one ABSOLUTELY give me one good reason why I shouldn't!

modified to add my first dog was a lab x spaniel who was an accident but lived to 17yrs and only saw a vet for her vaccinations until arthritis got the better of her. Best £2.50 I ever spent(it was in 1978 when I bought her )

but..... in another point - health testing parents imo dosent make it an issue.


probably 99% of crossbreeds intentionally bred are NOT health tested!....thats the problem!

im on the fence in regards to health tested parents within crossbreeds!

[kayjayem]

Jan 25, 2012 13:25:19 GMT B_31 said:

Jan 21, 2012 1:01:03 GMT kayjayem said:

I'm one of those idiots! I have a labrador x poodle(I won't say labradoodle as I'm not interested in the name) She is bred from hip and eye tested parents and after owning several pure bred poodles she fits my requirements much better as she retains the poodle characteristics but has a lower maintenance coat, and I don't apologise for one minute being an idiot and would a buy another one ABSOLUTELY give me one good reason why I shouldn't!

modified to add my first dog was a lab x spaniel who was an accident but lived to 17yrs and only saw a vet for her vaccinations until arthritis got the better of her. Best £2.50 I ever spent(it was in 1978 when I bought her )

but..... in another point - health testing parents imo dosent make it an issue.


probably 99% of crossbreeds intentionally bred are NOT health tested!....thats the problem!

im on the fence in regards to health tested parents within crossbreeds!

Sorry don't understand your first sentence

I think you would be suprised how many pure bred dogs are bred from NOT health tested parents. It is only registred breeders who have any regulation. The number of people breeding the odd litter of pure bred puppies from pet bit*hes is vast. I see it time and time again, working for a vet, many people think it is a easy to make a quick buck or it would be nice for the kids to have puppies in the house etc etc etc, in addition to, as mentioned above, the puppy farmers who, by nature of their business, are breeding far more puppies from their sub-standard stock. Although I do not condone breeding either pure or crossbreds from inferior un-checked animals at least the crossbreds are not perpetuating known hereditary defects in pedigree breeds which the reputable breeders are trying to eliminate.

[B_31]

Jan 25, 2012 22:39:03 GMT kayjayem said:

Jan 25, 2012 13:25:19 GMT B_31 said:

but..... in another point - health testing parents imo dosent make it an issue.


probably 99% of crossbreeds intentionally bred are NOT health tested!....thats the problem!

im on the fence in regards to health tested parents within crossbreeds!

Sorry don't understand your first sentence

I think you would be suprised how many pure bred dogs are bred from NOT health tested parents. It is only registred breeders who have any regulation. The number of people breeding the odd litter of pure bred puppies from pet bit*hes is vast. I see it time and time again, working for a vet, many people think it is a easy to make a quick buck or it would be nice for the kids to have puppies in the house etc etc etc, in addition to, as mentioned above, the puppy farmers who, by nature of their business, are breeding far more puppies from their sub-standard stock. Although I do not condone breeding either pure or crossbreds from inferior un-checked animals at least the crossbreds are not perpetuating known hereditary defects in pedigree breeds which the reputable breeders are trying to eliminate.

i am aware of the "dog lovers club register" (or whatever its called) where bad breeders try to palm off "registered dogs" with no health tests etc

i also am aware of many breeders not health testing and being reg'd - which is why my next dog is from health tested parents and an extensive interview/copies of certificates etc