"Natural" horsemanship

[sarahp]

So what methods of schooling do members consider should be included in the above description, and who favours what? What is the basic premise of each and why does it work?

I'm very hot on youngsters learning good manners in harmony with their handler and would like to know what others think.

[brookviewequine]

oooo sarah "can of worms opened" hehe.
I think obviously each to his/her own and there will be many many different views as you ve asked for.
As someone who has been around horses since the age of 8 and i m knocking on towards the big 4 0 now, i ve seen many examples of good and bad(lets say traditionally trained) and in more recent years good and bad that have been traind the natural way too.
I'm pretty much of the opinion that more often than not it isnt the type of training thats the problem, but the people who read books on how to do it or have "watched the odd dvd" and think "hmmm i think i ll break my own horse this week"
In what ever method and i tend to use a bit of both, if you re doing it incorrectly then problems will occur in later weeks/months/years.

[sarahp]

I do love a good debate! And thought it might be useful to clarify some thoughts on it.

So what exactly do you call "the natural way" then? Monty Roberts/Intelligent Horsemanship, Richard Maxwell, Parelli, what else? Those are the named systems that I have come across that might be considered under the general heading but I'm sure there must be others.

[Karen, garrettponies]

I've had call to enlist an IH rep recently to a particularly difficult youngster. I too am very hot on manners and have had horses/ponies since being a tot but this little chap had me beat. He acted as though I was the most terrifying person on the planet regardless of the fact that I have NEVER EVER lost my patience with him, come extremely close though!

Within minutes of wearing and training with the dually headcollar he was like a different pony, he was with me rather than against me. It was his 'choice' to do as he was asked and he picked up on it very quickly, he soon learned that he couldn't pull me back, he had to come forwards to me and he was no longer the dominant one. After half an hour he was the most relaxed pony. I have not had a problem with him since. His 'fear' was not 'fear', it was the method he had learned to get out of doing anything.

The reason I liked the IH method was that it wasn't complicated for me nor horse, we soon reached an understanding with a very straightforward method that was stress free for him and me. I won't use the methods all the time but I can apply it to any situation I feel it would be beneficial. ETA - timing is essential for this to work properly.

I know people who use the other methods, parelli etc and it's not my thing at all. All that rope twizzling and stick flicking. I have seen it used very badly and seen some very confused animals who have not had any proper benefit from it as the owners didn't have a clue. Obviously any method won't work if the person doing it hasn't the foggiest ;D

So IH gets my vote and I will use it when I feel its appropriate.

[carrie17491]

I don't understand Parelli. How can wacking a horse in the face with a huge clip and prodding it with a very hard "carrot stick" be beneficial?

I love Monty Roberts and his join up, it amazes me

[brookviewequine]

to watch monty on tv is very good, especially when he joins up with "an unhandled horse" then his jockey gets on and rides when it s never been sat on before.....
however, i ve often wonders what happens the next day when the horse is back home with his owner??
thats never ever shown.. i wonder why :/

[carrie17491]

I have never really though of that haha!

I just think some people are too quick to think right Parelli is right lets do that when if you look at it, all you are doing is getting the horse to shy away.

[vikki85]

I'm not a Parelli fan either, I'm a bit on the fence with Monty Roberts, his methods are much more preferable than many other 'natural' horsemanship methods, however I'm personally not keen on the idea of essentially chasing a horse round a pen until it submits or gives up...it seems a little like bullying tactics to me... This is just from what I've read and seen, if anyone would like to explain it in more detail for my understanding, please do.

I do agree with kind horsemanship though, and follow Heather Moffett's 'enlightened equitation' method of riding and schooling, and I love love love my treeless saddle which I know a lot of people find controversial.

[spidereyes]

Speaking purely from my own experience...

I can very much appreciate the principles of IH and Monty Roberts type approaches and absolutely embrace what it is they promote and help to achieve. I like the fact that they don't pretend to be radical and new and a miracle cure. Their approach draws from long practised successful approaches that everyone can benefit from. What I absolutely totally and utterly object to is the flash marketing, sell sell sell, "miracle cure", anyone can do it brainwashing that is hard marketed at novice horse owners. I don't know if the Parelli system is alone in that approach but it's the only one I have experience of so the only one I can comment on.

In my opinion it is wrong to tell people who have no basic knowledge, experience or understanding that they can handle, break and produce the perfect horse for 10 easy payments of some ridiculous amount of money (or however you pay for the gadgets and manuals!). I accept that the basic principles of the system are meant to achieve the same as IH and MR approaches in that they are intended to build on the relationship between human and equine. I embrace that. I do not embrace anyone being told that they can watch a DVD and some sort of mystical magic will happen. It's wrong. Wrong for the people and very very wrong for their horses. I don't object if it's done as a bit of fun team building with an already experienced horse but I own what happens when it's done instead of and not as well as proper handling and schooling.

We bought our cob gelding last August. We knew he was green in terms of his ridden work and that was exactly what we wanted. We were assured he was safe and were told all about how he could be ridden bareback without a halter and how he understood all the cues and whatever else. He appeared very quiet and was happy to be handled and poked at by my children and all the usual things you would look for. We did the necessary and brought him home in the lorry. What we brought home was a fire breathing maniac who has no manners, no understanding of safety, a fear of rope and an innate desire to fight if his behaviour is corrected. He has been allowed to turn himself into the boss. And not a bit of it is his doing.

It's taken months to get the full story out of his previous owner and I doubt we'll ever hear it all but the way he is now is HER fault and the fault of the people who told her she could use Parelli to produce the perfect horse.

She was sold him, by a local reputable dealer, as a broken and backed 5 year old (the dealer did the passport!). He was examined by the dentist who told her he was no older than three. At that point she should have gone right back to the dealer. She didn't. She kept him and waved ropes at him for 4 years. She did the "games" and having achieved them apparently he was magically ready for schooling. When we bought him he could manage a balanaced walk and trot, work well and come onto the bit but anything more and he reverted straight back to being like a horse half his age. He couldn't even come out of a gate safely. He had no idea what was expected of him because he had never been taught the very basic behaviours that all baby horses should learn.

We suspect he was sedated on the occasions we viewed him and it has been a massive learning experience for us. I will never ever buy another horse without a written agreement that it can be returned if it turns out the vendor has lied and I will never ever buy another horse that has been "Parellied".

Our boy is currently away (at eye watering expense) for professional schooling and re-breaking. I am terrified of him after he caused me serious injury by literally flattening me. He decided he fancied leaving his stable and he went straight over the top of me throwing me from one side of the yard to the other and leaving me so injured I couldn't get up. I had to lie on the floor and hope to god he wouldn't stand on me again. There is nothing more terrifying than listening to hooves on concrete and waiting to be trampled. The sensible thing is to sell him and it's probably what we'll do but instead of lying and flogging him cheap we'll take the hard hit of the schooling cost and we'll sell him responsibly. I refuse to condemn him to a life round the sales just because he's been let down by someone who was seduced by marketing.

So my view is that ultimately it's the clueless people who hold the rope and the sparkly eyed sharks that sell them a ludicrous fantasy that are tainting what is, in the wider sense, a genuine attempt to help people enjoy life with their horses.

Just my experience and no comment on anyone else's experience.

[auntiebarb]

Vikki85, I do see that the 'chasing around' seems a daft idea, but when I was a child, a girl in our village bought a succession of beautiful ponies, all of whom eventually refused to be caught. It was our great delight to go help Sue to catch 'Becky' or whichever horse she currently owned. Sometimes a strange girl could just walk up to Sue's pony and catch it in the normal way, but if ever the pony heard Sue's voice, then it would not be caught.

We scoundrels worked out that if you just tied up the other ponies to the fence and chased Becky around for half an hour, she would get fed up and go stand with the other ponies and be caught. This worked with all of her ponies, so obviously, we had worked out IH ourselves in our own little urchin way.

It really does work because sometimes Becky would just walk up to one of us and put her head in our hands and stand there. I have since done the same thing with my tb, who occasionally gets spooked and doesn't want to be caught, I just chase him away in the 25 acre field and walk back towards our house, he usually follows and allows himself to be caught, so long as you don't look him in the eye until his halter is in place. He is the most affectionate horse so I think sometimes he is reverting to how he behaved when he was in a racing yard.

[vikki85]

Love your description auntiebarb of learning IH in 'your own little urchin way' lol! I do see what you mean, and I've seen it work watching Monty Roberts on TV, etc, just wondered what the actual psychology of it was, is it establishing some sort of leadership the way we should do with dogs? Im guessing the horses don't fear the person chasing them as they willingly follow them afterwards..

[hs]

I like the Mark Rashid books and the Kelly Marks ones as well. They seem to be based on common sense and patience and I have learnt a lot from them and they have worked well. I think we are often in too much of a hurry and hence the reasons for so many gadgets and short cuts especially under saddle as well as people losing their temper. If a horse or person does not understand something shouting louder or get frustrated and hitting them won't make them suddenly understand. Another interesting thing I read was about horse/rider/owner compatability.

Regarding Parelli although I don't do it my YO does and has used it very successfully helping lots of people. One thing she did say was that very few people start their horses using Parelli or Natural horsemanship techniques, lots of people use Parelli as a last resource and the horses by that stage have developed challenging behaviour which can take a while to unravel. She is also a BHSAI so she has experience of the traditional way of training horses too. I have never seen her lose her temper or hit a horse and her horses are all well behaved, happy and easy to handle. She also hunts, sj and used to do showing as well.

[speedysally]

well my mum did some monty roberts follow up with my 5 year old when she was out of work, i've got a video aswell if you want to watch (it isn't brilliant but it was only after a few attempts) she really listened to me and my mum

www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8tkHUbA_Bc&list=UUiCUkmMYpNpUY61UF8kv4zQ&index=9&feature=plcp

[vikki85]

I hear you workingcob, and don't doubt that it works, I've got all of Monty Roberts books and have watched him on TV, haven't seen him doing a live demo though, and it's been a while since I read his books, so my question I suppose is how/why does it work (if that makes sense). Does it emulate the kind of natural behaviour other horses would show towards each other in a herd to gain respect and trust?

[tbmare]

Seeing both Richard Maxwell and Monty and more thn one occassion.. i can say they do make a differance.. most of it is practical to be honest.. i had a mare that was in a stable block fire and had problems with loading truck or trailer.. anywhere that looked dark.. misty .. small lit garden fires..or closely confined.she had problems with it.usually rearing..spinning napping whatever she felt was needed in order to not go there! . she went to one of Monty and Kelly tours we was allocated monty for the evening.. i was there all day.. and can assure you there as no run ragged in the pen.. the join up was successfull she trusted him... people that new her had witnessed a transformation.. she loaded perfectlly well that night.. we had a few issues for a while later.. but in all fairness.. f she has not been in the ruck for a while .. we just walk to te ramp back and forth for a few mins.. then ask her to go up.. after the first time.. she will go up on her own..and stay there untill you say she can come down!!
i now use a similar method to load bad laoders and it works well.
she is better is many other ways too.. plus i used a healer to help with her mental state too.the only thing i would have like was a follow up clinic afer that night in case thing go wrong.
Richard Maxwell deals more ith the schooling/riding issues as well the laoding.. join up etc..and even though Monty did a brill job on the mare.. for schooling RM is grt
Had a coloured mare whom had obviously been back wrongly sold to me unbroken... she was 4 1/2 when i finally got to sit on her back with out rearing..again we used the methods from the floor to the saddle ..took about 6 months in all to get her right..as in the simple commands and not tearing of grabbing the bit ...rearing so high she went over 2 and still tried...
Pressure and release methods are the key. ;D
I am not trained but have a logical mind and very thorough going back several times to make sure what i was asking was right.. it s down to common sense to read and watch propper...and really get the basic step right before moving on.. though it is quite rewarding when you see a much better horse who is willing rather than being forced to do something.
And i must admit i use these method on those who i feel there is no other alteranative for.. when everything else has let them down. i would not apply this to anyone elses horses only my own.. but yes there is something good that comes out of it.

[sarahp]

I've seen demos by both MR and RM on a few occasions, and I think the main generality about both is that they are trying to communicate with the horse in a way it understands, rather than trying to teach it to work to our "language". I feel I've benefited hugely by learning the importance to horses of our body language - and it works with sheep too, I can creep round the edge of my lot with shoulders hunched and eyes averted and they apparently won't even notice I'm there, but then walk up to them with shoulders squared looking them in the face and they will turn and flee. Sometimes the most difficult bit is to keep your cool, "shut down" your body and don't react to things, but just remain passive - that has definitely come from MR.

As I understood it, sending away in a pen mirrors what would happen in a herd (and never forget horses are herd animals) when to be driven out of the herd is an undesirable state for a horse. Eventually it wants to be invited and allowed to come back into the fold and be in a herd again, even if the rest of the herd is a human. I think many of us have developed techniques that are similar for various occasions - I used to walk down horses difficult to catch much as auntiebarb did. I have a friend who will "peck" a horse with her hand as a reprimand as a mare would a foal if it misbehaved. Not a major punishment, just a body language version of "you shouldn't have done that".

I don't do join up, but I do school my weaned foals using a halter and pressure/release techniques right from the start and swear by it. And I do demand good manners, respect for my space and no barging at any time. My intention is that they should regard me as their herd leader and do as I ask them, but also, very importantly, know that I will not hurt them, and nothing I ask them to do will be hurtful or unreasonable. "Yes, you do have to go in this lorry if I ask you to, but nothing dreadful will happen if you do, it's no big deal, just pretty boring really". I expect to be able to go into the field and catch the bottom of the pecking order pony and lead it out and know that none of the others will touch it as it is under my protection while I'm leading it. Doesn't always go according to plan of course, but that's the aim!

But I do reiterate what has been said above and elsewhere on here - the important bit is to understand what and why you are doing things, it isn't about the bit of kit. And it isn't magic but technique, one demo won't magically change your horse for ever but you need to know how to go on from there and continue what has been begun.

[brt]

I have been around horses for quite a number of year,s but would say it's only in the last 10-15 years that i have actually watched my horses and feel i have got a better understanding of them. (possibly down to maturity more than anything else)

I tweak what i do with them depending on their character, and believe that my body language works differently for different horses.

All mine learn to free lunge before putting them on a fixed line, i love working out what line of comunication be it body or voice works with each individual.
I am no "natural" horseman, i just use common sense and watch them alot

[vikki85]

That makes a lot of sense Sarahp, I was thinking it must be something along the lines of herd behaviour. Echoing what a few others have said, I think many of us use natural horsemanship methods without realising it when applying common sense. I think also, as children we perhaps see things more clearly because I can remember using similar methods as a child too.

[winterwood]

Mar 13, 2012 12:09:56 GMT brookviewequine said:

to watch monty on tv is very good, especially when he joins up with "an unhandled horse" then his jockey gets on and rides when it s never been sat on before.....
however, i ve often wonders what happens the next day when the horse is back home with his owner??
thats never ever shown.. i wonder why :/

They aren't unhandled horses that Monty uses as the starter horse in his demos. They are simply young, generally well handled horses, that haven't had a saddle or rider on.

If the owners work calmly and consistantly with their horse when they get home and don't try to move on too quickly, then the horse should progress nicely.
I think it's worth remembering that whatever Monty does with a horse in a demo situation is just the start of that horses learning.

[rubydoo]

i once did join up with a sec d and it took me months to get her to lunge after that she just submitted and turned in towards me . im sure it works for some people but im not a huge fan , i do like to watch it tho.
im also a follower of heather moffat enlightend equitation and a huge fan of the late Tony Dampier

[jessandoscar]

I'm not a parelli fan if I'm honest and I prefer IH to parelli, after having the opportunity to take my horse to be part of a monty roberts demo.. It depends entirely on the horse and the 'issues'
they have.. Although my horse wasnt 'fixed' in the demo he is now fine.. i dont completely abide by the IH ideas i just play around with things that work with the given horse.. some natural horsemanship and some common sense

I have to say I'm a fan of join up and when done correctly is lovely!

Modified to correct spelling sorry about that!

[eskvalleystud]

From the small amount I have seen, read and heard about parelli I think it is pretty cruel, there may be one or two bits that they do that is beneficial but alot of it I would cry if they did that to my pony/s

I had a visit yesterday from a lovely chap that had worked/studied with Kelly Marks and also Monty and it was great to watch him work with the horses and then me and realise that the way alot of us are taught is so regimented, doesn't allow for a horse to make a mistake and learn from doing so and that if you are told to do something in a certain way and you cannot get a reason to why you do it it probably isn't the right thing to do!!! got so much more to learn and away to get myself on a course I would definately recommend a visit - I think it was myself that was needing the training more than the ponies - well worth a try!

[snowflake]

Having watched both IH & Parelli on H&C you can certainly tell which is "natural"! Parelli I did not get at all, Pat just stood there waving the rope at the horse whilst he stood on the block. He sent it away, & every time it went away he pulled it back. The horse looked utterly confused, poor thing. Did not understand the point of the exercise at all? Some quite disgusting Parelli videos on YouTube...

IH & Kelly Marks is fantastic, no big NEC stage & ridiculously priced DVDs. Join Up Ive found quite useful - as suppose to a big bouncy ball, cough Parelli! IH you can pretty much understand why they're doing it, Parelli I truly don't understand the point in it & how it is at all "Natural".

[kellymarks]

Hi
If anyone wants to 'dip their toe' in so to speak join me on my facebook page - it's all free there of course - our membership is £25 a year and offers loads of information and our courses really are reasonably priced - we've had many comments 'the best week of my life!' Sorry this isn't an advert but just want to make sure people don't get the idea we're a huge money making scam - all the IH Recommended Associates and teachers are lovely people - and I do my best not to let the side down

JessandOscar - you just wrote me the most lovely email about how thrilled you are with Oscar because he now stands still to mount which the demo set in place for you! You remind me of my friend, Rosie Jones (who you also know) when asked whether she was for or against hunting replied "well ... it depends whether I'm talking to people in the country or the town ..."

[country girl]

i personally think that you can take certain bits from different practises, but as long as you understand there is not a time limit on how long it will take for your best friend to learn and to bond with you , as long as you have patience, time, understanding, and use boundries that are simple to follow for both of you, and to know when to ask for help, as everyone needs help at some point. I dont think you will go far wrong my main rule is if im upset, angry i wont work my friend as this is unproductive as they will pick up on your mood's, and they remember the bad times so the next time you work with them they may not be as sweet as before.

[huggybear]

Apr 12, 2012 12:02:58 GMT kellymarks said:

Hi
If anyone wants to 'dip their toe' in so to speak join me on my facebook page - it's all free there of course - our membership is £25 a year and offers loads of information and our courses really are reasonably priced - we've had many comments 'the best week of my life!' Sorry this isn't an advert but just want to make sure people don't get the idea we're a huge money making scam - all the IH Recommended Associates and teachers are lovely people - and I do my best not to let the side down

JessandOscar - you just wrote me the most lovely email about how thrilled you are with Oscar because he now stands still to mount which the demo set in place for you! You remind me of my friend, Rosie Jones (who you also know) when asked whether she was for or against hunting replied "well ... it depends whether I'm talking to people in the country or the town ..."

I can speak as someone who has had personal experience of an RA helping with behavioural issues with a horse ive had and there is no better experience than achieving something new with an animal that categorically didnt like you want to like you an least of all want to be with you even if only making the horse move its feet because youve asked it too.
Unfortunately due to other reasons our relationship had gone too far in his direction and i had lost all confidence in myself as a horse person so had to rehome him utterly devastating but now have a lovely mare what seems to have an issue with small spaces and gates so think ill be giving paddy gracey (IH RA) to come and help us out xxx

Thanks to kelly monty and all the IH team xxx

[kellymarks]

Good Luck with your new mare Huggybear - I'm sure both horse and human feel better when they've got a really good match - and though we all need to 'look at ourselves first rather than just blame the horse' - there are some horses that are right for us and some that are not!

[jessandoscar]

Kelly, i totally agree that the basics were set out in the demo and as i said on the ih forum on the review of the demo, that the demo gave me things to work on..
Im just saying that i dont think all horses will react the same to each method.. for example i found everything on the demo worked for Oscar except the picnic making him walking backwards which made him nervy around his head (but as you know he is quite nervy anyway). Basically all i was trying to say is, you have to take on board everything from the different types of horsemanship, combine it with common sense and the knowledge of your horse and thats the best remedy I cant thank you and monty enough for what you helped us achieve and i hope you can see the improvement on the video!!

[loulou25]

I agree with vicki78 I have done bits and bobs of both but have never been a massive follower, I have just used the bits that work for me!

I have an 11month section d colt who can be quite hot and he really benefits from playing the 'seven games' which does calm him and give him something to focus his pea brain!!!

At the same token I'd never do anything which I thought may upset him so again we just pick out the bits that work for us. I have used the same on my old mare who is very very sharp and now we do a lot of bareback and bridle-less riding in the school which I never thought we could do in a million years! I'd say it's definitely brought us closer and made a massive difference but I'm by far a parelli master!!!!!

It opened my eyes a lot as for years I was a non believer, I know it isn't for everyone, but has provided my big old bird and little monster hours of entertainment!

[ashleigh19]

My mare is a pacer...shes not had the best start to life I can tell that! Shes a sensative horse and did not trust at all when I got her....I done join up for the very first time with her and it was realy rewarding and it felt amazing her putting her faith in me...!! Monty Roberts ways and Kia taught me a lot and it made me see horses in a different light....Nothing is bomb proof and she will spook etc like any other her but I trust her with my life now.....and shes turned into a realy well behaved pony....I couldnt have re backed her without doing all this first....although its a long process which we are still going through, probably just starting actually