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Post by charliewarlie on Mar 28, 2012 14:30:37 GMT
I can see problems with some but after been dropped in classes for my horses legs who does dish. But he is 17 now can do a full days hunting has never been lame not one lump bump scratch nothing is it really the be all and end all.
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Post by crazychick on Mar 28, 2012 14:36:37 GMT
Why wouldn't you expect to be dropped when the judge noticed your horse dishes? They have to judge conformation and dishing is a conformation fault :/
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Post by chalky284 on Mar 28, 2012 14:39:29 GMT
I am very much an amateur when it comes to showing, just do it for fun. But I have been marked down for a small blemish (its and little lump in his knee, about the size of a pea, sometimes its there sometimes not) I compete in M&M and have always been led to beleive that blemishes such as scars, splints windgalls etc, are often overlooked as M&M's are work horses also and may have marks from working life. Whereas poor conformation can be passed onto progeny and therefore should always be marked down. Showing classes were, and possibly to some degree still are, to 'show off' ponies who are good examples of the breed and winners prove to be desireable to breed from.
I am sure that I will be corrected if I am wrong but this is what I was taught.
Though I have to say, the time I was dropped from 1st to not even in the top ten, was pretty harsh! and my pride was wounded that day!
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Post by future issues on Mar 28, 2012 17:46:13 GMT
I happen to think conformation is the be all and end all. Otherwise issues in their later years very often arise.
Even dishing comes from a fault somewhere in the conformation, so for future soundness any faults should be taken into consideration. It is very important to me for them to have a good, straight movement.
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Post by charliewarlie on Mar 28, 2012 18:03:33 GMT
At 17 I don't think I should be worrying about future issues do far has never been a issue I can't see why it would start now. If showing is about showing off the best animals maybe manners should be just as important as confirmation
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Mar 28, 2012 18:04:26 GMT
Certainly very important - but for purely practical reasons, not just aesthetic ones. Conformation faults can often lead to soundness problems in later life, that is the point of defining what constitutes good or bad conformation. Of course it doesn't necessarily mean that every horse with that fault will go lame or otherwise suffer the consequences, but that they are more likely to than one with ideal conformation.
If you don't like your horse being put down for its admitted conformation fault, why take it showing?
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Post by fanfarefan on Mar 28, 2012 18:23:41 GMT
i happen to think that confirmation is very important in showing , iknow as a gelding he would not be able to pass on a confirmation fault , but assuming he was a mare who perhaps had long pasterns , cow hocks , dished , bad feet , then as a responsible owner you wouldnt breed from her , now somewhere along the line your gelding has been bred from sub standard stock (sorry to be so blunt ) and lovely as im sure he is , and as sound as a pound , he has a confirmation fault which a show judge will penalise you for , a show animal should move as straight as a die , and in theory when a judge looks at you trotting towards them they should only see the front legs moving straight out in front , and if they are straight behind you will not see the hind legs !!! dont give up though , but just remember for showing you may get marked down for his action
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Post by charliewarlie on Mar 28, 2012 18:26:28 GMT
I take him showing as he is faultless in every other way, true to type, goes like a dream, behaves impeccably and looks after me and we both enjoy it. 9/10 times judge asks his age so even though he does dish its obvious his legs are clean and his not lame.
I didn't know m&m's could have certain faults over looked as they are work animals??
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Post by future issues on Mar 28, 2012 18:29:04 GMT
At 17 I don't think I should be worrying about future issues do far has never been a issue I can't see why it would start now. If showing is about showing off the best animals maybe manners should be just as important as confirmation 17 is not old, what about into their 20's and further on in life? Severe arthritic conditions amongst other things can develop. Most problems later in life are caused by poor conformation. These problems may never occur, but they often do. Poor conformation is what led my own horse to retire early and am now considerably more careful when buying a horse, than when i bought this one. Dishing would definitely ring alarm bells with me and so i believe it should be marked down. Scars, bumps etc that do not cause issues, should not be imo. |
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Post by chalky284 on Mar 28, 2012 18:43:17 GMT
I didn't know m&m's could have certain faults over looked as they are work animals??[/quote]
Just what was explained to me, from tradition and early showing I presume? I beleive its the same for any 'working' type as these are deemed to be caused in the line of duty and not a conformation fault. Of course it is down to each individual judges preference and I would think that these days if two horses were together and needed to be 1st and 2nd, the clean limbed animal would be placed first?!
Perhaps there are some judges on here with their perspective?
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Post by future issues on Mar 28, 2012 18:48:10 GMT
I didn't know m&m's could have certain faults over looked as they are work animals?? Just what was explained to me, from tradition and early showing I presume? I beleive its the same for any 'working' type as these are deemed to be caused in the line of duty and not a conformation fault. Of course it is down to each individual judges preference and I would think that these days if two horses were together and needed to be 1st and 2nd, the clean limbed animal would be placed first?! Perhaps there are some judges on here with their perspective?[/quote] I think this would only be for WHP classes, not M&M?! after all a hunting pony is bound to pick up the odd scar here or there and i think a judge would overlook a small scar in these classes, but not for ridden M&M classes. |
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Post by chalky284 on Mar 28, 2012 19:03:34 GMT
But M&M's weren't bred for showing they were bred to do a job, logging, pulling coal or slate out of mines, ploughing, bringing stags down from fells and highlands. They were working through the week then polished for a weekend show. They had to do allsorts of jobs, I'm sure many went hunting also!
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Post by Guestless on Mar 28, 2012 19:13:38 GMT
It can vary tremendously what one judge will overlook compared to another. Some don't mind a small splint which isn't a conformation issue, while others will overlook a bit of dishing (which is obvious if you watch some of the classes at a top show such as HOYS. Each to their own - it would be boring if judges all penalised the same issue - no such thing as the perfect horse  |
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Post by future issues on Mar 28, 2012 19:14:54 GMT
It can vary tremendously what one judge will overlook compared to another. Some don't mind a small splint which isn't a conformation issue, while others will overlook a bit of dishing (which is obvious if you watch some of the classes at a top show such as HOYS. Each to their own - it would be boring if judges all penalised the same issue - no such thing as the perfect horse Not according to Humdingers perfect 100 score |
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Post by fanfarefan on Mar 28, 2012 19:22:54 GMT
chalky , correct me if im wrong , but even in the past even a working horse had to have correct confirmation so that it could forfil the job that it was bought to do , they didnt live as long then addmittedly , but that could be that the poorer person bought the second rate stock therefore had a lame or unsound horse earlier on in its life .whatever discipline a horse has to do , be it showing , jumping dressage , or a work horse confirmation is important
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Post by future issues on Mar 28, 2012 19:26:40 GMT
Regardless of what an M&M was bred for, i have never known any class apart from WHP to allow for scars/blemishes, oh yes, the veteran classes too.
A working hunter pony will gain scars out hunting, M&Ms DONT work in mines etc these days, so therefore why should they be let off with scars and the like?
I agree with fanfarefans last comment.
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Post by chalky284 on Mar 28, 2012 19:33:32 GMT
chalky , correct me if im wrong , but even in the past even a working horse had to have correct confirmation so that it could forfil the job that it was bought to do , they didnt live as long then addmittedly , but that could be that the poorer person bought the second rate stock therefore had a lame or unsound horse earlier on in its life .whatever discipline a horse has to do , be it showing , jumping dressage , or a work horse confirmation is important Completely agree, but I meant blemishes not conformation. I don't mean that they are totally overlooked either future issues. I was just trying to be nice by pointing out to the OP, albeit not very subtley, that her horse being marked down for dishing is because it is a conformation fault, whereas many blemishes are overlooked because they aren't passed on to any off spring! |
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Post by fanfarefan on Mar 28, 2012 19:35:22 GMT
absolutely !!!
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Post by armada on Mar 28, 2012 20:16:53 GMT
9/10 times judge asks his age so even though he does dish its obvious his legs are clean and his not lame. No not on the day, but the judge is judging what they see on the day, not on the fact he's 17 and you say he's not had a days lameness in his life, were it me judging you, and a just as nice animal or two presented itself and did not dish, and had the odd fault I could forgive as acquired well, its a total no-brainer really. Most people are aware their animals have some fault of some sort, myself included, we had a pony with one fore hoof more upright than the other, it screamed at me every time I looked at it, but she won and won and won, maybe it went un-noticed but I doubt it, or maybe I was making a mountain out of a molehill, I'm looking at a picture of her now as a WPCS Bronze Medal winner I can see it from 6ft away, but thats me, hyper-critical, my vet always says I find a fault where there is non, and my bak man, who is a broad spectrum show judge, mentioned something with one of my others, I did'nt bridle and get huffy puffy, I said, 'yes, I know, nowts perfect' he agreed and said, yes would'nt place too much store on it, I've seen much worse qualify' but she ticked every other box above whatever was in the ring on those occasions, does yours? An obvious fault is the one that will be mentioned, it would be simply churlish to work your way from nose to tail with a litany of imperfections as a judge, but as an owner, you can stand your horse up on the yard and say, yes, I'm not mad on that, that looks less than perfect, I can try and build up here to disguise that. If you cant do that with your animal, in all honesty, you are in the wrong game. |
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Post by Sasha on Mar 28, 2012 20:41:57 GMT
I think conformation is an important factor, however splints and small windgalls? A horse should be allowed to live a little and sometimes a splint is a natural factor and it shows that the horse has had a varied interesting life! As long as not lame I don't think a splint should be marked down!
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Post by ikklecob on Mar 28, 2012 21:02:29 GMT
A horse should be allowed to live a little and sometimes a splint is a natural factor and it shows that the horse has had a varied interesting life! Alas living a little means they are no longer in show condition. |
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Post by desktop on Mar 29, 2012 9:56:34 GMT
A horse should be allowed to live a little and sometimes a splint is a natural factor and it shows that the horse has had a varied interesting life! Alas living a little means they are no longer in show condition. Totally disagree, my mare is 21 this year and has lived life to the full and still does, yes we show but that is not her mane job in life, she has absolutely perfect conformation (this has been confirmed by several judges, and breeders wanting to use my mare as a broodmare!!) she has no splints or windgalls. So sorry if you think that showing a horse means it has no life then that is just cruel  |
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Post by fanfarefan on Mar 29, 2012 13:31:19 GMT
i also disagree , my old mare lived to 29yrs , and when i retired her at 28yrs she had no lumps bumps or blemishes , she sj 'd , dressaged , xc'd , hunted , showed and really had a full life , and its what ive been trying to say previously , a horse with good confirmation is what your after to stay sound into their latter years , it bodes well for longevity , my old girl had great confirmation ---in the end i lost her out of the blue to acute cushings
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Post by honeypot on Mar 29, 2012 23:21:19 GMT
I have a NF mare who has rubbish confirmation. When my daughters did PC, children would ask what was a matter with her hooves as they are so boxy.
She has competed at everything, been on the cover of a magazine and never been lame in her 20 years even after a week at camp on rock hard ground, but showing I would fall over if we ended up being placed even if she did a foot perfect show.
If your not happy about being dropped for confimation faults do dressage or showjumpimg.
I also have a draftX who has to enormous matching splints on both front legs which make his legs look deformed. They appered in the space of a week when he was four and never reduced, he really is 'big boned', he to has never been lame but I would rather he didn't have them.
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Post by ikklecob on Mar 30, 2012 7:22:58 GMT
Alas living a little means they are no longer in show condition. So sorry if you think that showing a horse means it has no life then that is just cruel No I don't, but the risk you take for them having a life is that they are more likely to end up being scarred, having blemishes or faults from injury. That call is down to the owner. Mine show, hack, have hunted, done fancy dress at local shows and played bending races even if not built for it. Conformation is good but one silly injury has left my cob unable to show because of scar tissue. And do I love her any less NO. |
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Post by hursty100 on Apr 2, 2012 20:37:22 GMT
charlie- look at our Tom. he qualified RI last year and he was bred to be a show jumper and did upto 1.20m... no his conformation isnt perfect and he has wear an tear from his jumping days. But he can still do it, and i think some judges do look past. Dont forgetthe ride marks and your boy is as safe as safe. x
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Post by Sasha on Apr 2, 2012 21:02:21 GMT
I think perhaps posts should be read properly before jumping in! I was saying that a splint or windgall should not mark a horse down in a show ring as then perhaps people would be more likely to vary their show horses life without fear of risking there future in the ring! I firmly believe that small splints and windgalls and small scars should not affect a horse in the ring, it's not poor confirmation it's just a mark from a varied life or unfortunate cut or bump! After all how many horses and ponies are out there who are clearly top quality but threw a splint or cut leg and have ended up having to give up on show ring success? Oh and I have the stocks ready so the tomatoes can be thrown at my head!!!
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jimbo
Junior Member
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Post by jimbo on Apr 2, 2012 22:08:41 GMT
Firstly can I make it clear that as breeders we regularly show as that is one of the ways in which we showcase our youngstock However there are issues around showing that perturb me and I have a few pet hates.
Top of my pet hate list is overweight horses. We had a 2yr old filly marked down for being underweight! Flabbergasted. And no she wasn't thin.
Second is horses being marked down for blemishes that have nothing to do with conformation. We have our horses and in particular our youngstock running in small herds. So bites, scrapes, scratches, lumps and bumps are common place. I would assert that our horses are mentally fitter and happier as a result. This leads me on to my third pet hate, which is more an opinion and a fear for the future.
I see showing going down the same lines as dog shows where they have become more of a beauty pageant rather than an assessment of a breeds ability to do the job for which they were bred.
Now going to put my head below the parapet to avoid the bullets heading my way.
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Post by Sasha on Apr 2, 2012 22:39:51 GMT
Firstly can I make it clear that as breeders we regularly show as that is one of the ways in which we showcase our youngstock However there are issues around showing that perturb me and I have a few pet hates. Top of my pet hate list is overweight horses. We had a 2yr old filly marked down for being underweight! Flabbergasted. And no she wasn't thin. Second is horses being marked down for blemishes that have nothing to do with conformation. We have our horses and in particular our youngstock running in small herds. So bites, scrapes, scratches, lumps and bumps are common place. I would assert that our horses are mentally fitter and happier as a result. This leads me on to my third pet hate, which is more an opinion and a fear for the future. I see showing going down the same lines as dog shows where they have become more of a beauty pageant rather than an assessment of a breeds ability to do the job for which they were bred. Now going to put my head below the parapet to avoid the bullets heading my way. Don't worry there's room in my stocks And plenty of rotten fruit!!! |
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Post by fanfarefan on Apr 3, 2012 13:15:39 GMT
i think that one of the main problems is that there are no hard and fast rules across the board , and then we come down to human choice /error of judgement , and we will never get away from the fact that it comes down to personal preference, some will over look lumps and bumps / scrapes and others wont , some like them fat some like them lean , and some over look confirmation faults, and others dont , its an open mine field
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