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Post by iluvmyponies on Jun 23, 2012 11:33:56 GMT
I don't think people are looking at this from different views, they are just saying 'snaffle is good, everything else is bad', which is DEFINITELY not the case.
My Fell mare is ridden in a jointed pelham (mouth piece is wrapped in latex) &/or a Waterford snaffle. SHOOT ME DOWN. She goes lovely in both so we use the Waterford for novices & the pelham for opens, we have picked up our Picton qualifier (qualified in the Waterford) & our Home Produced qualifier (qualified in a pelham). She does tend to go better in the pelham so when we do our first HOYS/RI qualifier she will be in her pelham as she is most comfortable in it. She used to be in a single jointed bevel bit & she took numerous open championships throughout last season, the only reason we changed bits is because she is more comfortable in the current bits.
We tried her in a JP loose ring snaffle which she hated, she wasn't happy in her mouth so we didn't put her in it again. YES she has been schooled correctly.
My Section A would go happily in any bit, we had him in a braking bit to back him, then a bevel bit, then a pelham. He was occasionally ridden in a loose ring snaffle or a tom thumb, for no other reason than it was already on his bridle from previously riding my worker. I could ride him on the buckle of the reins & he would work wonderfully, no matter what the bit. He was just one of those ponies who was happy to go in whatever. (& he was a gelding, so wasn't like my hormone crazed fell!)
Horses comfort comes first! I think those of you who are so bogged down that snaffles should be worn need to look at all sides of all stories, the majority of people have a reason behind bitting their horse the way they have.
Regarding marking down depending on the bit; couldn't this be the same as whether you ride with a whip or not? I don't ride with a whip, at home or at shows, purely for the reason that none of my ponies need it. Surely if you ride with a whip some people would assume that you use it? In that case, it should be taken into as much consideration as the bit in the ponies mouth. I know a lot of people ride with a whip for 'overall image', does that mean that my overall image in the ring is always incomplete? Didn't think so.
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Post by whp94 on Jun 23, 2012 12:16:08 GMT
Ilmp- What you have said is not where I'm coming from at all- what I'm saying about pelhams is seeing them on ponies that are poorly schooled, on the forehand etc. I like my ponies to be in snaffles but that's not always the case, I have one at the moment that is simply too powerful when jumping to have a snaffle so is in a NS universal. But she is schooled in a snaffle not a gag or pelham or anything that just holds her head in.
We're not just snaffle people, haven't said that it's wrong for using a double, all we're stating is why is it frowned upon to use a snaffle in open classes?
If a pony is happy and goes sweetly in a pelham then fair enough, but to me a pony charging round the ring leaning and being overbent isn't going sweetly therefore isn't happy?
Not aiming this at you ilmp but I think some people just think that as long as the pony has his head in, can do a show and looks nice then it's well schooled! I think there is a definite difference with schooling for the show ring to dressage, which I don't think there should be any difference.
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Post by iluvmyponies on Jun 23, 2012 14:20:29 GMT
My comment wasn't necessarily aimed at you whp94.  It was just a general comment that there are a lot of people nowadays that slate anyone whose ponies are in anything other than a snaffle. I do agree that snaffles should not be frowned upon in the show ring, as if the pony is happy there is no need to put the pony in any other bit, especially for a piece of ribbon! |
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Post by tbmare on Jun 24, 2012 10:17:08 GMT
The showing world has changed over the years !! in my younger years you shown novices in a snaffle and then when you went up to open or height restricted classes it was seen appropriate to ride in a pelham or double ...
Just as you would choose the right bridle for its quality and finesse to suit your horse/pony so would the bittery to match it made an overall impression !!! showmanship.. it was never seen upon that your pony was strong should it be in anything other than a snaffle... more the fact it was ready and schooled enough to ride and look nice in the bridle..same could be said about wearing spurs and carrying a crop etiquette and the overall picture... you wore and rode in what felt appropriate and suited you and your mount...
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Post by sageandonion on Jun 24, 2012 11:33:47 GMT
Today my daughter was riding one of mine in a clinic with a continental trainer of great repute. The trainer's partner, top level judge, was beside me and we were discussing the way of going of my large native v the very expensive (and I mean probably around £100K mark) warmblood horse that had just been in.
The opinion was that my native would always want to revert to the incorrect way of going as this is the way he was trained as a baby for showing and he was very successful going in this matter. His area of improvement was absolutely caused by the use of a wilkie and being ridden onto his forehand with his head pulled in. We will always find this a challenge as a result though he is capable of achieving Medium with ease and possibly above.
Said dressage judge told me trainer and herself had recently watch a county show and the pony they tipped top as moving beautifully, correctly schooled and in a snaffle was actually placed 15th!
Now these people know exactly what they are talking about.
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Post by vikki85 on Jun 24, 2012 12:34:13 GMT
Couldn't agree more with Iluvmyponies post - Some ponies and horses, no matter how beautifully schooled, do not like snaffles, just as some ponies don't like Pelhams or doubles. It's all down to the horse's comfort at the end of the day, I don't think Pelhams should be vilified or labelled as a 'stronger' bit (although they undoubtedly are when used in the wrong hands!) and neither do I think snaffles should be vilified and labelled as 'novicey' in open classes.
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Post by sageandonion on Jun 24, 2012 15:19:45 GMT
I disagree. A healthy pony should be able to work correctly in a snaffle in a schooling environment, every pony is capable of being schooled to do a decent BD dressage test and a pelham is not a legal mouthpiece for this. The mouthpieces are numerous, straight, lozenge, etc. No pony should need a pelham to work over the back, from behind. Lots of ponies appear to declare they dislike a snaffle because they stick their head in the air. With a pelham the head drops. That doesn't mean they 'like' the bit.
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Post by vikki85 on Jun 24, 2012 16:39:52 GMT
I agree to a certain degree with you S&O - my own pony has won and got high scores at unaffiliated dressage, obviously in a snaffle. She could probably affiliate very easily. However, she does not relax her jaw in a snaffle the way she will in a Pelhamyet, yet has never been badly ridden - I've had her since a foal and she's been brought on by myself with lessons from a classical dressage trainer for the past 6 years. I feel I get more refinement and lightness from her in a pelham, it's nothing to do with brakes or getting her head down. I ride in an elastic curb chain with more emphasis in the snaffle rein.
So, though she is indeed capable of going decently in a snaffle, it wouldn't be my choice in an open showing class as my pony is just BETTER in a Pelham.
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Post by iluvmyponies on Jun 24, 2012 17:13:50 GMT
I beg to differ S&O, my fell doesn't put her head in the air when in a snaffle, she puts her head to her chest & takes hold of the bit. She is so light in a pelham & is happy in it.
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Post by whp94 on Jun 24, 2012 18:15:39 GMT
I think schooling in a Pelham or gag or whatever can be seen as a lazy way out of proper schooling. As S&O has said just because a pony may poke his nose in a snaffle doesn't mean it doesn't like the bit- its probably not used to having a bit that doesn't hold/force it's head in!
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Post by sageandonion on Jun 24, 2012 18:34:17 GMT
Shall I say then that I personally have never come across a horse or pony that has been backed correctly, doesn't have health issues and is ridden well that cannot be schooled to work sweetly in a arena to novice level in one of the snaffles.
I have come across very many ridden in pelhams and more robust bits with the sole aim of getting the head down. I have yet to meet a rider that will put their hands up and admit that is the reason why these bits are used.
We all base our opinion on our experiences and I am rather older than I would like.
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Post by vikki85 on Jun 24, 2012 18:53:04 GMT
whp94 I think that is a rather blanket statement. Gags and Pelhams are such different bits you can't even compare the two. I take it you also assume riding in a double is 'lazy schooling'?? I'd also like to point out that I don't need a pelham or gag 'to get my horses head in' as her dressage record proves that.
S&O, I agree we can only base these things on our own experiences and I am commenting on my own personal experience - It's the softening of the jaw and the lightness is provides that I enjoy - my pony already works from behind and has her head in the correct place.
I won't say any further on the matter as we're going slightly off-topic now, apologies to the OP!
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Post by whp94 on Jun 24, 2012 19:18:58 GMT
Vikki85 - I used gags and Pelhams as an example as they are both bits with head lowering actions- I didn't say using a double would be a lazy way of schooling did I? I don't have a problem with doubles as you'd ride of the snaffle rein. Also my statement wasn't aimed at you so don't be offended.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jun 25, 2012 4:19:22 GMT
Surely the "comfort" of a bit to the horse relates to the actual mouthpiece and not the style of the side pieces/action of the bit?
And as regards the comparison of carrying a whip - yes in the show ring it completes the picture, but I always carried one when riding just in case it was needed as an emergency measure - fending off loose dogs usually! A whip properly used is an extra aid anyway, not an agent of punishment, and when carried has no effect, unlike a bit which is in constant use.
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Post by vikki85 on Jun 25, 2012 11:12:11 GMT
Vikki85 - I used gags and Pelhams as an example as they are both bits with head lowering actions- I didn't say using a double would be a lazy way of schooling did I? I don't have a problem with doubles as you'd ride of the snaffle rein. Also my statement wasn't aimed at you so don't be offended. Sorry whp94, didn't mean to come off as ar**y, I know you didn't state that you feel riding in a double is lazy, which is why I asked you if you thought it was. The reason I asked is because, though a pelham is different from a double in the way that the shank and snaffle are connected so they can never be used completely independently the way the bits in a double can be, when ridden in correctly, a pelham has very similar actions to a double. They can be useful transition bits for horses moving from a snaffle to a double, or a good alternative to a double when a horse's mouth confirmation will not allow two bits to be used. I'm just trying to explain that whilst, yes, many many people use pelhams for the wrong reasons, not everyone does and I don't think everyone should be tarred under the same brush. The argument many people are using is that pelhams aren't dressage legal, but neither are many of the 'snaffles' we see showing ponies ridden in either. My pony likes a mullen with a low port. If I was to buy this with snaffle ring pieces, this would not be dressage legal either! But it's ok, cos it's a snaffle  Another example is that people use waterford snaffles to stop their ponies leaning on the bit - but as the pony is ridden in a snaffle, I'm sure some would still argue that their pony is 'correctly' schooled -- despite the leaning (no offence meant to anyone who uses a waterford, just using it as an example - if your pony goes well in it and is comfortable, by all means use it) Yet another way to look at this is how many people use a flash/drop/grackle noseband in WH classes? Or a running martingale? Or a STANDING martingale?! In my opinion, a healthy, happy, properly schooled pony with manners should really be able to go steadily around a course of jumps without having any number of objects strapped to it's head. I'm not saying any of you guys on here ride in WH like this by the way, but this seems to be acceptable on the showing circuit, so I can't see what all the fuss is about doing a flat class in a pelham... |
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Post by sageandonion on Jun 25, 2012 12:02:51 GMT
There is an awful lot that is fashionable and common place on the showing circuit, that doesn't make it acceptable.
The point being that if the OP has a pony/horse that goes very beautifully in a snaffle she is to be absolutely congratulated and should not feel she needs to put her horse in an unnecessary bit in order to conform to others.
I am going to a clinic tomorrow with my mare. It will be warm and the school is a little harder work than I like. She will want to be above the bridle and not moving her butt. I could make it very easy for myself because if I put her in a pelham her head will drop without me doing a thing and I could justify using the bit by saying she must therefore like it. In the event, I won't go into denial, I shall use the snaffle and plug away at my schooling in an effort to improve both of us.
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Post by vikki85 on Jun 25, 2012 12:36:38 GMT
I don't think anyone on here who has said they use a Pelham has said that the OP shouldn't be congratulated on the fact that her pony goes beautifully in a snaffle - I have myself said she shouldn't be penalised for this in a HOYS class. Having said that, this is definitely my last post on the subject as this was the whole point of the thread in the first place (I mean it this time  ) |
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becki
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Post by becki on Jun 25, 2012 13:54:05 GMT
KRW - Having experienced some similar problems and after many tedious trial and error sessions with various bits I finally decided to go against “tradition” and I put my pony in the HOYS at Cheshire County last week in a loose ring snaffle,
The pony is far from a novice he has competed at RIHS, HOYS & Olympia in the last two seasons, however in recent months he has become increasingly unhappy when ridden in anything other than a snaffle, all obvious things have been checked out and nothing out of the ordinary found,
The difference between his performance at Midland Counties where he was shown in a Pelham to Cheshire where he was shown in a snaffle was enough to assure me that although I was a little apprehensive about doing this it was without a doubt the right thing to do for the pony and I shall continue to contest the HOYS qualifiers in a snaffle.
The two small breed judges at Cheshire clearly didn’t have any objection to the snaffle as he was pulled in top and finished 2nd on equal marks with the winner however I am well aware that not all judges will be so open minded and I did have some interesting reactions in the collecting ring.
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Post by whp94 on Jun 25, 2012 18:07:26 GMT
Vikki85 - I used gags and Pelhams as an example as they are both bits with head lowering actions- I didn't say using a double would be a lazy way of schooling did I? I don't have a problem with doubles as you'd ride of the snaffle rein. Also my statement wasn't aimed at you so don't be offended. Sorry dont mean to be splitting hairs here.. but a gag is not the same as a Pelham, it does not lower the head it in fact raises the head ...  I havent said gags are the same as pelhams...just that imo they have head lowering actions- yes I no pelhams have a curb action to. However I've never ridden a pony or seen a pony ridden in a Pelham with his head up in the air, hence why they are a popular bit in the ring |
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Post by owston on Jun 25, 2012 18:17:55 GMT
We have gone back to using a snaffle in open ridden class simply because our Sec A stallion goes well in it. He also goes well in his pelham but we have decided to stick with his snaffle as we only used the pelham for shows as we naively thought that's what we had to show him in in open classes. He does well at dressage in his snaffle so we have kept it in. It has somewhat surprised me to read that some judges may go against us for using a snaffle in an open class. Again I naively thought most judges would appreciate it! This is quite a learning curve for us.  |
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Post by Kerbeck on Jun 26, 2012 9:51:30 GMT
I also saw your B Showing fanatic and she is lovely, however I wouldn't let her result from cheshire bother you, my pony had lost a leg and ended up with the lowest conf mark! Plus he had the 3rd from bottom ride mark, and 6 different people approached me after the class (didn't know any of them!) to say they were shocked he wasn't placed!
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Post by showingfanatic on Jun 27, 2012 0:43:56 GMT
However I've never ridden a pony or seen a pony ridden in a Pelham with his head up in the air, hence why they are a popular bit in the ring I beg to differ, today I tried my pony back in her straight bar pelham after schooling for past few weeks in a snaffle, she was unbelievably strong and i spent my whole time battling with her head as she attempted to take a hold and go round with her head in the air. kerbeck, thank you, i also spoke to a panel judge who had no complaints with her show, however she got a terrible ride mark (conformation mark was good). yesterday, my mare jumped round a 75-85cm course, complete with all manner of fillers and what not, sweetly in her hanging cheek snaffle, nicely settled on the bit and very light. she is not happy in the pelham so i am going to continue with the qualifiers in her snaffle, traditional or not! |
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Post by melons on Jun 27, 2012 6:50:13 GMT
The B in 2nd place at cheshire had a snaffle in was just going to say this Cheryl.. was initially pulled top |
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Post by whp94 on Jun 27, 2012 12:42:55 GMT
However I've never ridden a pony or seen a pony ridden in a Pelham with his head up in the air, hence why they are a popular bit in the ring I beg to differ, today I tried my pony back in her straight bar pelham after schooling for past few weeks in a snaffle, she was unbelievably strong and i spent my whole time battling with her head as she attempted to take a hold and go round with her head in the air. Sounds like she was evading the bit and trying to get away from it. They normally stick there heads up or down into there chests when there tryna get away from the bit - from past experience |
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Post by showingfanatic on Jun 27, 2012 12:56:48 GMT
Yes I know exactly what she was doing and as she's not a lazy pony trying to avoid work, this tells me she is unhappy with this bit in he mouth, hence why she shan't be in it again.
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Post by whp94 on Jun 27, 2012 13:11:26 GMT
Yes I know exactly what she was doing and as she's not a lazy pony trying to avoid work, this tells me she is unhappy with this bit in he mouth, hence why she shan't be in it again. Stick with what she's happiest in, as I said before a good judge should look past what it's got in its mouth. |
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Post by princessalysx on Jun 27, 2012 14:44:04 GMT
Why do people on here have to be so negative and presume that everything in a snaffle is schooled to perfection and that anything in a Pelham or double charges round on the forehand, with it's chin forced on to it's chest?! If your pony is happy in whichever bit you choose to ride in then why not show in that specific bit? At the end of the day, like anything in the showing world it will always come back to someone's opinion. You can't please everyone!
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Post by Kaseyleigh on Jun 27, 2012 19:00:39 GMT
Shall I say then that I personally have never come across a horse or pony that has been backed correctly, doesn't have health issues and is ridden well that cannot be schooled to work sweetly in a arena to novice level in one of the snaffles. I have come across very many ridden in pelhams and more robust bits with the sole aim of getting the head down. I have yet to meet a rider that will put their hands up and admit that is the reason why these bits are used. We all base our opinion on our experiences and I am rather older than I would like. Finally someone on the same page as me I think if you break them properly and school properly you shouldn't even have to use ur reins my horse I sold last year as a 4yrs old was winning dressage tests left right and centre and also was winning showing classes all in a snaffle he is now even jumping hoys newcomers in a snaffle because I well mouthed him I always if I get a new horse and it's not in a snaffle re-mouth them to go in a snaffle. Last show we took out a traditional that we have produced he is now 6yrs old a goes in a snaffle ridden by a 13yrs old girl an the judge loved it because he wasnt stuck in a pelhum like the rest of the class and it shown he was responsive and well schooled all mine go in snaffles wouldn't ride in anything but a snaffle |
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Post by klouisem on Jun 30, 2012 8:07:51 GMT
dubhshee: TOTALLY agree! My new forest was broken in and schooled by myself in a snaffle, did dressage, showing, hacking and jumping and I didn't even really need my reins as he was so well schooled he was ridden off my seat. I never tried him in a pelham as he always went beautifully in a snaffle, he's now sold and doing BSJA and jumping 4ft(in a saffle)  I got on a show pony once that the owners said wouldn't go softly and they tried all bits and the pony just wouldn't work well, I asked them to but it in a snaffle and got on him and using my legs and seat he went beautifully(as in REALLY beautifully, didn't know he had it in him!) anyway, his owners were like 'WHAT? How are you doing that, oh my god' I said I'm just using my seat and legs! They got on a I told them how I rode him and he went nice for them now! He then went out to a local and won and went champ! All in a snaffle as they said all along they wanted to keep him in a snaffle but he wouldn't go nice in it so they tried all types of bit. I'm not against other bits! Don't get me wrong, if I was doing HOYS/RIHS county on an experienced pony I would try to get them in a double(or pelham) as I do feel judges look at a pony in a snaffle and go 'novice' even if they're not! If any pony hated a pelham or double though I would just put them back in a snaffle because at the end of the day if my pony is happier having a snaffle in their mouth that's all that matters! I wouldn't 'make' them have a bit they didn't want in! If the judges marked me down because of it then that just proves showing isn't about the way the pony goes and conformation. That's my opinion! Everyone has their opinion, don't shoot me down. |
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Post by sageandonion on Jun 30, 2012 13:31:35 GMT
Could I just ask a quick question, what does 'my pony lost a leg' mean as said by Kerbeck earlier?
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It was just a general comment that there are a lot of people nowadays that slate anyone whose ponies are in anything other than a snaffle.
Another example is that people use waterford snaffles to stop their ponies leaning on the bit - but as the pony is ridden in a snaffle, I'm sure some would still argue that their pony is 'correctly' schooled -- despite the leaning (no offence meant to anyone who uses a waterford, just using it as an example - if your pony goes well in it and is comfortable, by all means use it)
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