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Post by madsazzy on Jun 13, 2012 19:00:30 GMT
My new horse goes very over bent when schooling. He's trying so hard for me bless him but he has a naturally very low head carriage and i'm wondering if anyone has any tips for lifting his head while still getting a nice outline and impulsion from behind?
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Milliesmum
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COCKERP00S RULE!!!
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Post by Milliesmum on Jun 13, 2012 19:07:48 GMT
what bit is he in?
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Post by madsazzy on Jun 13, 2012 19:10:22 GMT
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Post by madsazzy on Jun 13, 2012 19:11:27 GMT
Sorry that pic is so huge lol He's in a dutch gag. Haven't had him long so riding him in the bit he came in and I ride my other horse in a dutch gag so not sure whether it's worth changing?
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Post by madsazzy on Jun 13, 2012 19:13:38 GMT
And the other rein. As soon as i asked for an outline he went like this. My mum thinks maybe he was ridden in draw reins before and encouraged to go overbent, maybe mistaking this shape for being on the bit"  |
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Post by showingfanatic on Jun 13, 2012 19:20:28 GMT
I'd get him straight out the gag, the poll pressure every time you touch your reins will only lower his head carriage and encourage him to evade by over bending. get him in a nice simple french link snaffle or the likes, don't worry about an outline for the time being, get your leg on and work on pushing him forward and up on to the bridle  |
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Post by bow1607 on Jun 13, 2012 19:26:04 GMT
I'd get him straight out the gag, the poll pressure every time you touch your reins will only lower his head carriage and encourage him to evade by over bending. get him in a nice simple french link snaffle or the likes, don't worry about an outline for the time being, get your leg on and work on pushing him forward and up on to the bridle This! |
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Post by stumpedmum on Jun 13, 2012 19:36:02 GMT
echo above |
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Jun 13, 2012 19:37:50 GMT
I'd get him straight out the gag, the poll pressure every time you touch your reins will only lower his head carriage and encourage him to evade by over bending. get him in a nice simple french link snaffle or the likes, don't worry about an outline for the time being, get your leg on and work on pushing him forward and up on to the bridle ^^  Spot on! |
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Post by madsazzy on Jun 13, 2012 20:15:10 GMT
Thanks everyone! I have a snaffle I will try him in, but he was a little on the strong side today so hopefully will still have brakes!
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Post by sageandonion on Jun 13, 2012 21:09:59 GMT
So agree with the above, the bit is part of your problem and maybe similar bits in the past. Did you have him vetted? if not, get the vet to look at him because this way of going is more than overbent. I would have his teeth looked at and get him physio. Your horse does not have a naturally low head carriage he looks extremely uncomfortable and has excessive muscle wastage on his rump.
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Post by Kerbeck on Jun 14, 2012 9:53:24 GMT
I echo what S&O says, my initial thoughts when I saw the pictures were that he is in pain. This isn't overbending its evasion! I would have all physical checks done and once he has been given the all claer I would stick him in a snaffle and work him on a circle for the time being, in walk and trot only until he is moving forward and you have him between your leg and hand. You should then have a horse that is light and working in a consistent rhythm and that you can put where ever you want! It may be boring and it will be hard work but it will pay off! I wouldn't even ask for any type of contact, just drive him forwards and once he has built the correct muscle and is working from behind he will automatically start to work in a shape.
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Post by madsazzy on Jun 14, 2012 19:08:07 GMT
He was vetted when the previos owner got him and then she did nothing with him but have a novice hack him for a few months and when I got him a few days ago he had done nothing for a few weeks. One of our liveries is a physio and has checked him over when he arrived. He's got very little muscle or top line and that's something I will be working on. I don't believe he was in any discomfort, although I can see why you'd think that from these pics.
He does have a low head carriage as even when he is mooching round the field it's fairly low.
Today he was ridden in a snaffle, I hacked him alone for about 45 mins at a steady pace and he was extremely forward in walk and i had very little contact and his ears were forward and he was very happy so i don't think it's pain related.
I plan to continue light work and schooling with him to build his fitness and muscles up as i am aware that there's a lot of muscle wastage there.
These things take time but I dont plan on him going anywhere so will build him up slowly.
Thanks for all your advice.
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Post by lillicob on Jun 14, 2012 19:49:12 GMT
Without wanting to offend you and your horse looking at the photo and the way he carries himself i wouldnt of said his front end is his best asset, he will find going "up and on" difficult. Has he been ridden in draw reins in the past or fiddled with (my pet hate) to get his head down? I was on a yard with a mare that went in a very similar way to him both in the field and under saddle, my mum refers to it as broken necked.
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Post by madsazzy on Jun 14, 2012 19:58:25 GMT
I said earlier in post that my mum said that maybe he'd been ridden in draw reins before and forced into this position.
I didn't say his front end was his best asset?
I'm not offended by any comments, but i want you to realise that i've had this horse a few days and have found an improvement by changing to a snaffle.
I know there's no muscle there but i'm almost certain there's no pain either.
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Post by sageandonion on Jun 14, 2012 20:12:39 GMT
It is impossible for you to work your horse in a correct outline until he has built up some general muscle. He is very very weak behind. His neck is set on fairly well, it isn't built exceptionally low, the fact that he carries it low doesn't mean it must be there, but it does mean things are not too great.
I am going to say it just once more and then I shalln't keep labouring it. I think your horse needs to be checked over by a vet and then he may refer to a physio. No qualified physio will look at a horse without vet referral, it just isn't worth their job. So if horses are looking uncomfortable, we are best to have them looked at by a vet before we even begin to think of trying to correct.
I can school to a reasonably high level and I truly would not know how to begin with your horse.
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Post by nia2311 on Jun 14, 2012 20:14:53 GMT
He looks like hes been ridden in tight draw reins before, which has set his muscle tone in such a way he carries his head like that. It will take a combination of physio, as S&O said, to improve muscle tone elsewhere, and correct schooling to break the draw rein habit. Draw reins cause this sort of damage, hence why they are so darn dangerous, especially in the wrong hands.
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Post by tbmare on Jun 14, 2012 20:53:14 GMT
Looking at the pics he isn't tracking up from behind neither, i am very surprise that a pyhsio has not picked up on this, and the fact the previous owner had it vetted means very little really, i bought a horse years back with the vet report saying suitable for jumping and hacking, she had a back problem which was picked up on in the vetting but still said suitable for sj and hacking. I never got this checked up on at the time, but she was cold backed, never realising the was something wrong till much later., You can down the route like i did... thinking it's just a cold back never getting it seen too and puting a friend in hospitl because of this!  Or get the vet and a propper referal whcih will not only give you peace of mind may save you both a lot of time, bother and money in the end. |
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Post by lillicob on Jun 14, 2012 21:12:15 GMT
I said earlier in post that my mum said that maybe he'd been ridden in draw reins before and forced into this position. I didn't say his front end was his best asset? I'm not offended by any comments, but i want you to realise that i've had this horse a few days and have found an improvement by changing to a snaffle. I know there's no muscle there but i'm almost certain there's no pain either. The comment re his front was my opinion. Without seeing a photo of him side on i can only gauge on the photos you have put on and i wouldnt of said he has the biggest of fronts. Draw reins are potentially damaging things, people nowadays think just because their heads are down they are working properly, sadly they arent. Im sure with the correct work and feed he will get there and it'll be all worthwhile. I would have him checked by a equine osteopath, the guy we use is brilliant. |
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Post by GinaGeo on Jun 14, 2012 21:13:51 GMT
Hmm, I too wouldn't know where to start. I suspect as you do that some pretty tight draw reins have been used in the past. I strongly agree with the drop the gag concept, and would also be consulting an expert. You need to develop a very light, consistent contact and really get him moving up to the bridle, many transitions would be useful.
If I were you I think my plan of action would involve a Vet, who could then refer me to the appropriately qualifed body expert; be it a physiotherapist, osteopath, chiropracter, sports massage therapist etc. They all do something slightly different and one might be more appropriate in this case.
Going from there and having followed their advice I'd then put him into a loose ring snaffle and do lots of hacking with absloubtly no attention being paid to working on the bridle. I'd use lots of transitions to push him up to a light contact and try to encourage him to take some weight onto his quarters. I'd also be consulting my very trusted instructor who would help me to keep my sights on what I wanted to achieve and also to give me a second opinion on my approach. If she told me I needed a rethink then I would.
I too girl thingy-footed around back related issues for too long before calling in a vet, despite seeing various other experts. In my horse's case it was hoof in-balances that were to blame.
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Post by madsazzy on Jun 14, 2012 21:23:32 GMT
I agree lillicob. I'm aware that this is not the correct way of going.
I feel like i've been jumped on a bit when i've only just got this horse and worked him twice and based on 2 pictures i've been told that my physio is cr*p and my horse is cra*p like i've put the pics on saying" look at my amazing horse down on the bit in a perfect outline"
My mum was an instructer and trainer for some 40 years and i'm sure between her and my physio who checked him over rather than gave him a treatment, they would have picked up on these dreadful problems that you lot have diagnosed by looking at 2 photos!
Just because he's not obese, sorry "show condition" apparently he's wasting away.
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Post by nia2311 on Jun 14, 2012 21:34:21 GMT
Ok - firstly, your original post does not state you have ridden him twice, it just asks how to lift him and go in correct outline.
Secondly, if you are going to ask for advice on a public forum, you will receive advice that you both like and dislike. You can either do nothing with the advice, or do something with it, no-one is going to check!
Thirdly - I am still of the opinion, based on two photos, that your horse has previously been strapped in with very tight draw reins. This has resulted in wrong muscle tone and therefore wrong head carriage. To correct this, you must work on the muscle tone of the front line and neck, but also the hindquarters. No-one has suggested you put weight on him. Both of the prior contributors are very ANTI obese/fat horses (see lounge area). They are recommending you improve his muscle tone, that is not putting weight on. Until he can work from behind, he will not go in a correct outline, only a false one. If you are happy with the non-vet referred physio, then fine. I would also have his teeth checked in case discomfort here is causing him to try and evade the bit. I agree with ditching the gag bit for a simple snaffle.
If you ask for advice here, especially without giving the full details with a couple of photos, you will get what you asked for - advice. You don't have to take it.
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Post by horseylady on Jun 14, 2012 21:34:45 GMT
oh oh!!! put your tin hat on madsazzy haha... xxxxxx
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Post by lillicob on Jun 14, 2012 21:36:21 GMT
I agree lillicob. I'm aware that this is not the correct way of going. I feel like i've been jumped on a bit when i've only just got this horse and worked him twice and based on 2 pictures i've been told that my physio is cr*p and my horse is cra*p like i've put the pics on saying" look at my amazing horse down on the bit in a perfect outline" My mum was an instructer and trainer for some 40 years and i'm sure between her and my physio who checked him over rather than gave him a treatment, they would have picked up on these dreadful problems that you lot have diagnosed by looking at 2 photos! Just because he's not obese, sorry "show condition" apparently he's wasting away. I dont think anyone is saying that. I certainly wasnt implying you think it is the correct way for a horse to go. He is your horse we can only offer our opinion, what you decide to do is completely your choice. Broken necked that i was referring to isnt a dreadful problem, basically its overbent, the horse will find it hard after clearly being ridden so long in the same way to use different muscles to go the way you are now asking him. He looks a nice sort, i personally wasnt meaning to offend you just offering my advice. You will get there, and you'll have legs like vices by the time you've finished! |
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Post by madsazzy on Jun 14, 2012 23:26:36 GMT
Firstly nia, if you read the whole thread then you will see that on a number of occasions i have stated that i think the problem is that he has been ridden in draw reins in the past. I know it's all about building the right muscles in the right place and this will take time. I also made it clear from the 1st post that i have only just got the horse. Sorry I didn't say the exact amount of times.
The reason I have posted on a public forum was for a different perspective. The physio who looked over my horse is highly accredited but seeing as she check over him within an hour of him arrving he wasn't yet registered with a vet to be refferred. Again if you read the whole thread u will see that she is a livery at my yard and was not performing any sort of treatment.
Secondly thank you lillycob, it wasnt your comments which offended. I completely agree that he needs a lot of work and obviously teeth, saddle and back will all been seen to as art of routine.
Thirdly thank you to the kind person who pm'd me giving me some kind advice in a way which didn't patronise me or put the fear of god into me that my new horse is in dreadful pain and lost cause that has so many problems "i wouldn't know where to start"
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Post by Kerbeck on Jun 15, 2012 9:49:14 GMT
I also didn't mean to offend you :/ but you came asking for an opinion and that's what I gave, he looks a nice sort and I'm sure with time and work he will be fab but if I saw a horse going like that I would automatically think it was pain related! At the point I posted you didnt say you had had a physio, sorry again if I have offended you |
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Post by lillicob on Jun 15, 2012 10:33:09 GMT
I've ridden a few in my time that like to go on the low side and that have been ridden in draw reins, which imo tend to make them slightly hard in the mouth therefore like you are finding with him now stronger in a snaffle and probably leaning, is he good to hack out? id be tempted to hack him, dont ask anything of him and concentrate on him going forwards
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Post by nia2311 on Jun 15, 2012 11:15:01 GMT
My new horse goes very over bent when schooling. He's trying so hard for me bless him but he has a naturally very low head carriage and i'm wondering if anyone has any tips for lifting his head while still getting a nice outline and impulsion from behind? This is what I replied to. New horse yes, but no other information. I am now withdrawing from this conversation as clearly you have taken umbridge at me merely suggesting physio would improve your horse. I have at no point made reference to anything scary, I have not said "I would not know where to start" or anything else. My post have said a) he has been in draw reins and b) you should get physio to correct the muscle issue caused by the draw reins. Thats it. |
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Post by delfachhighwayman on Jun 15, 2012 11:36:05 GMT
if you pop him in a snaffle and you feel he is over bent, you may find using half haults on your outside rein (some times shaking it works better) he will lift his poll, likewise if he raises it too high, open and half hault with the inside rein to lower the frame.
Hope this helps & good luck x
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Post by delfachhighwayman on Jun 15, 2012 11:38:09 GMT
Also for the record- I dont think your horse looks uncomfortable or in pain so I personnally wouldnt worry too much! x
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