What is going on with Section Bs.

[whocares]

today I took our 3 year old B gelding to a show. He is well matured, lots of bone, show hunter stamp, lovely head and moves beautifully. He was in a class of 3 .He was the only one who managed to trot more then 5 strides and was bottom of the class under a section B breeder. The judge told us that the pony was a 'ridden type', which he is ;but isn't that the point of native ponies they should be ridden types and fit for that purpose. Instead of which most successful inhand Bs are not wanted for ridden showing.

Coming from a farming background I am used to livestock being judged on commercial grounds; is the animal going to satisfy the market and it is about time those judging in hand Section B classes recognised that the ponies they are putting forward are not wanted in the market place and their judging is destroying the breed .Is it an wonder that the top priced 13 HH ponies at Fayre Oaks are now coloureds.

[larkhaven]

Interesting. One of mine. now 4, did nothing much in the B classes, but last year we trimmed him and plaited, ad have been showing him as a SHP - he has done really well in hand, and we have had very encouraging comments from good judges now he has started ridden showing.
I have a two year old I will be doing the same with!
The breed description for B's actually says 'of riding pony type', but for the in - hand classes the judges seem to want more 'nativeness' about them - my stallion has 1/4 Section A, and is very Welsh. He does well in hand, and occasionally picks up a reasonable place under saddle.

[watchbank]

I agree, we breed a old fashioned type of welsh b with tonnes of bone - how they always were and how they should be and then ones with no bone, more of a riding pony type of B get up the line from the original stamp of a B! Madness

[whocares]

I started this post because I have been breeding Bs from our very successful Downland mare but I am now so disillusioned by the impact of the inhand judges that after 2 foals, I am going to give up and return to breeding TBs or sports horse which I understand as the market is king.

This is why Section B section of the WPCS stud book is in decline .

[larkhaven]

Ah! My 4 year old in my last comment is out of my Downland mare!

[haggismarmite]

We show a Sect B ridden, he did very well in hand but I have to say after him I won't have another B as they are the most demoralising of the breeds to show - most judges in mixed small breeds tend not to like them, if they do then they don't like your type of B, or they don't like small ones or they don't like up to height ones - then you get the A/B mix generally more SHP type, or they want massive show pony movement or they hate them moving like that, the list goes on!!!!

I can't see much consistency this year but maybe it's just me, I don't have any great knowledge on breeding but just from the spectating of the small breeds classes it's not an easy breed to own!

[larrysmum]

Don't give up whocares, breed the type you like.
Have to agree, there's definitely an in hand type and a ridden type.
Our very Welsh 12hh section B does better in mixed m&m than our larger "riding type" b's.
Like Larkhaven, we also plait up for shp/rp classes.
We only really show our youngsters in hand for a bit of fun and experience anyway, so never really take placings that seriously, always nice to get a red one though ;D

[brt]

Section B's are looking more like mini T.B's every year, they should be stocky and are a pony bred for riding so don't know what the judge was on about!

Section B: The Welsh Pony

The general description of the Welsh Mountain Pony can be applied to the Welsh Pony, with greater emphasis being placed on riding pony qualities whilst retaining the true Welsh quality with substance.

[whocares]

I am glad I am not alone in thinking that in hand B judges are departing from true breed type. I note that some of you now just opt got SHp classes .I don't think that is the solution. There is a breed description and as one observing judge and breeder said on Sunday, the B should be a larger A with the bone and substance to carry an adult and the movement to make light of all terrain and the athleticism to perform. The light specimens which prevail in in hand classes do not match the description and nobody wants them for ridden ponies so why don't the in hand judges stop destroying the breed .

[Jessica]

I think it is quite unfair to tar all judges with the same brush on this one, but I'll be the first to admit that you have to pick your Judges carefully!
In some ways I can see what a judge means when they say a more ridden type of B. We recently sold the chestnut below. He was a very good example of a sec B (2nd Royal Welsh this year) but he was a touch long on the back and and although moved out of his skin, in-hand he tended to not use himself to the max. Therefore he was sometimes beaten by short coupled ponies who although perhaps couldn't move as well as him had more lift in their shoulder so looked more compact.
He is therefore more a ridden type, once he has a saddle on and is being ridden and using himself properly he should be absolutely top class!

We tend to have ponies with bone and that move, you get some judges that love them and generally speaking they do well, but other times you do wonder what they are looking for! I also don't think we could plait up ours and do SHP. Had a go once and our boy had double the bone of anything else!

[gillwales]

Personally I think that is a standard judges reply to justify their placings, does not mean a thing! I think with most of the welsh breeds these days and with most showing sections there are the types that do well inhand are different to what does well under saddle.
I would go back to sportshorses, there is more of a market for them

[sarahp]

The current Section B was defined in the 1930s to be a bigger child's riding pony than the A, and so to make a registration place for those ponies with Welsh, TB and Eastern blood, so the potential for different types is in there depending on what individual breeders are selecting for.

[brt]

Sept 2, 2012 7:08:01 GMT sarahp said:

The current Section B was defined in the 1930s to be a bigger child's riding pony than the A, and so to make a registration place for those ponies with Welsh, TB and Eastern blood, so the potential for different types is in there depending on what individual breeders are selecting for.

So would you say the Section B is more a manufactured breed?

[sarahp]

Define manufactured? When registration started there was a continuum of animals of all heights from tiny mountain ponies to large cobs, and obviously no restrictions on what was mated with what. The original sections were by height only (ie today's A, C and D) until breeders found there was a market for larger children's riding animals of a lighter type than the current C. So lighter blood was used and the sections redefined.

If you go back through any Welsh pedigree you will almost certainly find bloodlines from other sections, and if far back enough, other types in there, they were very mixed in the early days. When I started breeding 30 odd years ago there were very very few Cs around, particularly stallions, and lines have been added through crossing A x D or A x C. Now look at the numbers! It used to be said in my early days that if you looked at photos of an A, C and D with no indication of scale you shouldn't be able to tell what section they were.

[brt]

Well, i have a Black Russian Terrier. The breed was bred for a purpose by the Russian Red star Army which was to ultimately be a Man Stopper, but also a utility dog.
They are 30% Giant Schnauzer, 30% Airdale 30% Rotweiler and 10% Newfoundland.

They were bred specifically to do a job and so totally manufactured.

Therefore if the Section B was brought in after the other 3 sections with T.B or say Arab (i know the other sections have slight mixes too) in them for the sole purpose of them doing a job,
would that not make them more of a manufactured bred?
Hope i have explained myself properly, in the middle of a migraine !

[sarahp]

Well only in the sense of altering the section definitions for registration, it was still down to individual breeders what was bred rather than an institution like the Red Army breeding the Terriers. The WPCS made the facility I suppose. Don't forget that in the 30s ponies were for working or a farm crop, not the leisure animals they are now, so someone saw a gap in the market to be exploited! Huge numbers of all sections were bred and sold on to do a job whether ridden or driven.

[whocares]

I think A's,C's and D's should be the same type but just different heights and there is some consistency between the inhand and ridden classes in these sections. These sections seem to be treated like other shown livestock where the show ring pays account to what the commercial market wants and where there is a genuine attempt to maintain breed types.

My complaint in respect of Bs is that there is no breed type which all WPCS judges are trained to recognise and there is not even a nod towards the market where the demand is for four square compact types with athleticism rather than show pony movement.

I am afraid I don't buy the suggestion that a ridden pony is a pony with less than perfect conformation or that people should breed what they like. The top ridden pony should be the model for the inhand ponies and this should be recognised as such in hand classes if the breed is to have a future.

[sarahp]

I do agree with most of your last paragraph with one caveat. With the best will in the world there are legitimately different sorts (avoiding the word type which has a particular meaning in this context) for breeders to choose to breed for in all sections - in Ds large or small, best for ridden or driven, for example, while still adhering to the breed description, which must always be the standard to aspire to. In Bs up to height or smaller for LR or FR classes. In all cases conformation must be as near correct as possible, that's a practical measure for being fit for purpose to do a job and stay sound.

[catkin]

A very interesting thread. We have several section B's, I would consider all true to breed type/description, yet they differ greatly. I genuinely believe there is room for different intepretations of each of the welsh sections in fact, surely this is a good thing? We all like slightly different things, yet it should be possible to remain within breed type at the same time as accommodating these preferences.

Many good points made above, but just a couple more to throw in!

- I don't believe that 'ridden type' means lighter of bone and I know for a fact that a good amount of bone is rewarded in SHPs for the section B's that get plaited to do that job.

- It is possible for a pony to have sufficient bone and be true to type, but perhaps not have quite as much as another. I am by no means promoting spindle legged types, of course!

- the section B varies massively in size and therefore, perhaps, this brings about more difference in type too?

[eh]

Hi there well i do honestly think that you looking in the wrong places...there are some excellent b studs with really well thought out breeding programmes....take for instance Telynau, Cadlan Valley, Bronheulog, Eyarth to name but a few that consistantly do well in hand and undersaddle. In fact take a look at the CV filly that was res sup in royal welsh 2011, even the cob boys were in awe of her...so what does that tell you??

I also feel that if you have too much bone and substance then you are likely to be a tad coarse, they have to have quality, refinement and yes a different way of going to the rest of the welsh breeds.