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Post by judyh on Oct 28, 2012 18:16:48 GMT
Just hope the foal is not born before !st January. Do you intend to keep it ?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2012 18:59:34 GMT
I bet there will be more than yours in foal, you should all get together and take her to court!
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Post by Fiontar on Oct 28, 2012 19:58:30 GMT
Good Luck S. I know you lost your other lovely mare so hope Callie does a good job for you. Warren Playaway produces some cracking jumping ponies so the foal should be a useful sort whatever it is!
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Post by wildnative on Oct 28, 2012 20:32:07 GMT
 I now know WHY the colts are not registered ! Some people should just NOT be allowed to have horses !  Now I'm hoping the sire of Callie's foal isn't one of the INBRED colts ! Fingers crossed it is Colt 1 or Colt 2 who is the Daddy. I'm so glad I have reported this "woman" to the SSPCA. Jane, I had another mare there from 22nd September 2011 until 15th September 2012. The Welsh D, Malog Telynores Menna. I sold her on 5th August 2012, but her new owner (who is furious about the situation and will also sue the YO if Menna is also pregnant) kept her there on grass livery for 6 weeks after buying her. Other liveries who own mares are my friend, who moved the day after I did and has had her vet out, and another woman with 8 horses there. I'm not sure how many of hers are mares, but she knows about the situation and has had her vet out. She is looking for a place to move her 8 to. judyhems, I can't afford to keep 2, so the foal will be sold once it is old enough to leave mum.
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Post by bethanyy on Oct 28, 2012 20:34:54 GMT
Eek! Serves the YO right, she deserves everything she gets. I hope you and the other mares owners sue the ar*e off her.
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Post by elmere on Oct 28, 2012 21:32:00 GMT
I wouldn't worry about the possibility of the sire having similar lines on sire and dams side, quite a few studs do this purposely and when successful it is called line breeding, all you can do is wait and see.
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Post by wildnative on Oct 28, 2012 22:19:02 GMT
elmere, this isn't a case of using line breeding to improve the quality of stock. It's colts being left entire and being able to cover their own mothers, sisters and daughters. Colt 1 has a son out of his own sister. I've just found this out today. Colt 1's son, if left ungelded, would be in the position to cover his own dam once he is old enough. It's actually quite sickening. There is no defined breeding programme....they are just left to get on with it. That's why the colts are not registered.....not even their owner knows who their sires are..........  |
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Post by elmere on Oct 28, 2012 22:59:34 GMT
Yes but it can just as easily go wrong when controlled as not controlled, I really wouldn't worry about something that will likely not even be a problem. As for selling the foal I would advertise at a month old as they seem to sell easily then in the spring when people are looking, they seem to like the cute and fluffy look.  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2012 23:15:22 GMT
I wouldn't worry about the possibility of the sire having similar lines on sire and dams side, quite a few studs do this purposely and when successful it is called line breeding, all you can do is wait and see. You really have to know what you are talking about here! NOT something I would do. |
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Post by elmere on Oct 28, 2012 23:49:26 GMT
I wouldn't worry about the possibility of the sire having similar lines on sire and dams side, quite a few studs do this purposely and when successful it is called line breeding, all you can do is wait and see. You really have to know what you are talking about here! NOT something I would do. No not something many would do for obvious reasons but I have seen it done successfully so its not always a negative. |
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Post by gillwales on Oct 29, 2012 4:37:55 GMT
You really have to know what you are talking about here! NOT something I would do. No not something many would do for obvious reasons but I have seen it done successfully so its not always a negative. Basically "line breeding" is a sanitized term for incest, for every good point you double up on you also get the bad points, not all are visible, the worse are digestive disorders and the utter nutters. I can think of 2 big riding pony studs one which has the first and the other the second, oh that and fertility faults. Please do not ask me to name the stud as I have no intention of doing so. |
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Post by viking on Oct 29, 2012 7:07:57 GMT
No not something many would do for obvious reasons but I have seen it done successfully so its not always a negative. Basically "line breeding" is a sanitized term for incest, for every good point you double up on you also get the bad points, not all are visible, the worse are digestive disorders and the utter nutters. I can think of 2 big riding pony studs one which has the first and the other the second, oh that and fertility faults. Please do not ask me to name the stud as I have no intention of doing so. Rather a sweeping statement there gillwales, and why the comment relating to two big riding pony studs ? An unnecessary point ! |
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Post by elmere on Oct 29, 2012 9:06:38 GMT
No not something many would do for obvious reasons but I have seen it done successfully so its not always a negative. Basically "line breeding" is a sanitized term for incest, for every good point you double up on you also get the bad points, not all are visible, the worse are digestive disorders and the utter nutters. I can think of 2 big riding pony studs one which has the first and the other the second, oh that and fertility faults. Please do not ask me to name the stud as I have no intention of doing so. Like I said many wouldn't choose to do it for obvious reasons but its not all bad. |
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Post by turtlespooch on Oct 29, 2012 12:45:21 GMT
You keep a record of all costs including your own time, As many photos as possible etc,etc. You can hen take her to court and depending on which area you are in as councils vary you can put in a complaint as unfit to be responsible to running a yard.
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Post by wildnative on Oct 29, 2012 15:57:11 GMT
Thanks everyone. gillwales, I have been told that some of the horses concerned are infertile. Clearly one of the colts IS fertile though. I have a good idea now of which one is most likely to be the foal's sire. There are also some visible conformational defects, so this isn't good for the poor horses involved. turtlespooch, everything in that respect is in hand and is being taken care of. I can't post info though due to the ongoing case . |
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Post by eskvalleystud on Oct 29, 2012 16:19:01 GMT
I am awaiting to hear back about my mare, that was on this yard, IF she is in foal I will be taking the yard owner to court, I bought this mare as a future ridden star, due to my injuries not healing as quickly as anticipated I kept her on this yard at a cost of £35 a week for grazing after I bought her from wildnative, where she then went on to a professional yard 140 miles away and has been there for 6 weeks now being broken in and schooled on, If my mare is in foal I will go nuts, I have medal and county show champion breeding stock at my own stud, who are proven, I have not covered anything for the last 3 years due to the market - I do not want to be irresponsible as its dire selling atm, so for my mare to possibly be in foal to god knows what I am fuming, she is costing me alot to be professionally schooled and has come on so well and really enjoying her work, I also do not have the time or finances for a foal appearing next year, another reason why I have not bred for the last few years, I would need to put my mare on full livery if she is in foal, I hope to god she isn't, this is so unbelievable for myself, wildnative and all the other mare owners that have had livery at this yard
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Post by wildnative on Oct 29, 2012 22:03:40 GMT
I am awaiting to hear back about my mare, that was on this yard, IF she is in foal I will be taking the yard owner to court, I bought this mare as a future ridden star, due to my injuries not healing as quickly as anticipated I kept her on this yard at a cost of £35 a week for grazing after I bought her from wildnative, where she then went on to a professional yard 140 miles away and has been there for 6 weeks now being broken in and schooled on, If my mare is in foal I will go nuts, I have medal and county show champion breeding stock at my own stud, who are proven, I have not covered anything for the last 3 years due to the market - I do not want to be irresponsible as its dire selling atm, so for my mare to possibly be in foal to god knows what I am fuming, she is costing me alot to be professionally schooled and has come on so well and really enjoying her work, I also do not have the time or finances for a foal appearing next year, another reason why I have not bred for the last few years, I would need to put my mare on full livery if she is in foal, I hope to god she isn't, this is so unbelievable for myself, wildnative and all the other mare owners that have had livery at this yard Thank you for posting eskvalleystud  I sold Menna to you knowing that she would have a fantastic home. It was a difficult time for me by having to sell her, but I just "knew" that you were the right person for her. With this "issue" we are now experiencing, I genuinely feel bad that Menna could also be a victim of this person's negligence and complete contempt towards her paying liveries. I know that you will keep me updated as I have not only found the perfect home for Menna, but also a very good friend. I will support you in every way I can if Menna is found to be in foal. I was really looking forward to going out showing with you next season. Showing Callie will now have to take a back seat for now, and I seriously do hope that Menna isn't in foal as I know how much you have put into her towards preparing her for the showring. I'll always be on hand to help you either at your yard or grooming for you at shows, even if it is without my own pony for now. I completely agree with you with regards to indiscriminate breeding, but this case takes things to a whole new level. I have never come across anything like this in my 35 years around horses. I'm deeply shocked by the whole thing. Another livery mare involved was a rescue mare who has arthritic hips and is beginning to lose her sight. I was told that the YO paid for this pony to have a prostaglandin injection.....I really hope to god it works and this poor mare doesn't go on to foal next year. Her owner had the vet out to do a blood test and give more prostaglandin if needed. I haven't heard the outcome yet, but really do hope it is good news for this little mare, Libby, a French rescue. I know of one other livery who had a mare injected, again, paid for (allegedly) by the YO, but I don't have any means of contacting this person to find out if all is well. |
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Post by wildnative on Oct 30, 2012 3:15:14 GMT
I've sent you a PM horseylady. I can't post details other than my pony's predicament. x |
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Post by elmere on Oct 30, 2012 13:03:35 GMT
I dont understand how not one of the liveries noticed this going on, is it quite a small yard?
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Post by wildnative on Oct 30, 2012 15:35:26 GMT
elmere, there is just over 100 acres of grazing with around a third of it being on a hill that slopes steeply downwards from the flat areas.
Not knowing the colts were still entire didn't help as we were not aware of the risk.
I certainly never witnessed any sexual behaviour going on in the fields. I moved there in February 2011 with my last pony as the yard was closer to where I live. She was due to foal (planned) in May 2011, but died in April 2011.
Even when I first went to view this yard, the YO did not once mention that she had entire colts out grazing.
I knew that she had the stallions, who are stabled and have a little turnout paddock beside the stables, but didn't know that she didn't bother gelding her own homebred colts.
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Post by elmere on Oct 30, 2012 16:18:59 GMT
Ah that explains it then, very hard to keep track over that amount of land.
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Post by bethanyy on Oct 31, 2012 14:21:44 GMT
Any news on Menna wildnative?
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Oct 31, 2012 15:58:38 GMT
On the inbreeding side wildnative - of course it's no way to breed them, but at least your mare is a total outcross to any of the colts, and from good healthy NF stock so her foal will be more likely to not exhibit any of the possible faults caused by the random inbreeding. If you follow that!
Line breeding can work well - most of our domestic animal breeds were developed by heavy line breeding - but it depends on having no nasty genes in the common ancestor. As said above, it magnifies the chances of doubling up on genes good and bad.
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Post by wildnative on Oct 31, 2012 21:49:36 GMT
You're obviously doing your homework wildnative, so well done for dealing with it so well. Your previous YO on the other hand sounds rather strange and should not IMO be responsible for having entires. Does she actually do anything with them or are they just field ornaments? Highly irreponsible for anyone to have a 3 year old colt wandering around, next mind if you have horses on the premises that don't belong to you. I meant to reply to your post Guestless, but completely forgot, sorry. She doesn't really do anything with them. Field ornaments really, but then out of the blue she advertises them for sale as well handled (they are not even halter broken !), and asks for £thousands for unregistered stock that she can't even guarantee the parentage of. One, she had a buyer for recently. It took them 3 hours to catch it, having to resort to coralling it with other horses where it kept jumping out. They eventually caught the colt, buyer paid for him but then couldn't load him. He was rearing up, fell over a couple of times, the buyer changed her mind (remember, it was advertised as well handled), then had a major problem with trying to get her money back. I've been contacted by quite a few people now who have had problems with this woman. I'm just waiting to hear back from a solicitor. Equine specialist, but she is on holiday at the moment. No news about Menna yet though, I hope she is okay. |
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Post by Tralala on Oct 31, 2012 22:00:43 GMT
Could be the next Supreme Champion at HOYS!! You never know!!
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Post by wildnative on Oct 31, 2012 22:48:27 GMT
On the inbreeding side wildnative - of course it's no way to breed them, but at least your mare is a total outcross to any of the colts, and from good healthy NF stock so her foal will be more likely to not exhibit any of the possible faults caused by the random inbreeding. If you follow that! Line breeding can work well - most of our domestic animal breeds were developed by heavy line breeding - but it depends on having no nasty genes in the common ancestor. As said above, it magnifies the chances of doubling up on genes good and bad. I agree with you completely on this sarahp. Callie comes from good forest bred NF stock, with no repeated lines on either side of her pedigree for at least the last 5 generations. (One line on her dam's side goes back to Cleveland Bay ancestors around 22 generations back). Out of interest, I used to breed and show Gerbils a number of years ago. I used selective line breeding to fix type, quality and colour with some of them, but I ALWAYS used outcrosses in my breeding programme. I bred a few good ones too, winning at big shows. My 2 favourites were Jacob, the most stunning Argente Cream, and Thor, a perfect example of Lilac, both bred by myself. |
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Nov 1, 2012 6:55:05 GMT
To some people, the thought of line breeding does promote undeserved violent reactions, it's a question of understanding the genetic principles, which you obviously do wildnative from the gerbils. I think if I didn't breed ponies it would be something else instead, and you often find that those gifted at breeding one species also breed others with success because they understand the process.
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Post by wildnative on Nov 1, 2012 15:01:20 GMT
A bit of good news ! It has just been confirmed that the great grandsire of all of these colts is the Bavarian Warmblood stallion, Duplikat ! The colts are all by either the Bavarian WB Stallion (not reg as far as I know) Oliver, or the Bavarian x TB (again, not reg) Doopy. Both of those stallions are by the Bavarian Warmblood, Dumas, who is by Duplikat Pedigree on sportshorsedata - www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10734751&z=68Y_d6 |
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Post by eskvalleystud on Nov 8, 2012 15:42:03 GMT
I am relieved to say that my mare is definately not in foal following scan by the vet so her ridden career can continue to great relief!!!!
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Post by wildnative on Jan 5, 2013 4:27:14 GMT
Sorry I've not posted for a while, I've not been very well lately.
There's no sign of a foal yet, but Callie is MASSIVE. No signs of her starting to bag up yet, but due to her size, we think she could foal sometime very soon.
I'll update again later after I have been to see her today.
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