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Post by brindlerainbow on Mar 11, 2013 11:25:17 GMT
At the end of the day it isn't important whether a person chooses to own a pedigree or a cross breed. What is important is that the dog is loved and well looked after and that the breed or type fits in with the owners lifestyle. Im a pedigree dog owner and have owned boxers for 30 years, my daughter has a lurcher ( deerhound,greyhound,bedlington,whippet ) who I absolutely adore and although I could never be without a boxer I would happily have a lurcher in the future as they would fit in with my life style. I would never consider having a tiny dog such as a Chihuahua or pomeranion as it simply wouldn't suit my lifestyle at all!!.
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Post by B_31 on Mar 11, 2013 11:45:03 GMT
IMO, leave the doodles of all types alone and stick to your pedigree dogs. Let people enjoy them for what they are, (although the 'dog snobbery' is amusing), once you get a written down breed type you will get the ribbon hunters exaggerating all the written 'traits' to the detriment of the animal, like with alsations, pugs, etc. Everyone I know personally who has had pedigree dogs has had nothing but problems with them, so as far as I'm concerned you can keep your bit of paper that makes one dog more 'valid' than another. Everyone who cites health problems as a reason not to cross two pedigree dogs of different breeds, needs to think where the health problems are coming from in the first place, that's right, the pedigree dogs! Why not cross say a pug, with something with a longer, smaller head to reduce the breathing problems and make it easier for the b!tch to have a natural birth? Seems to make sense to me, if there is a market for 'jugs' or whatever and the demand is there, why not? if done correctly - health tests - hips/heart whatever - from both sire and dam i dont have an issue with crossbreeding on purpose but the fact is 99% of breeders of crosses with stupid names "jugs"(wtf?) is money....... thats my issue! fwiw - i own a cross (Accident/present from the neighbour)!, and a pedigree working dog....so nothing against either pedigree or crosses
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Mar 11, 2013 12:29:20 GMT
Pretty much where I stand too. And we have a cross who was someone else's accident and a rescue who appears to be a pure saluki but no history! Again, I have nothing against pedigrees or crossbreds, I would just like people buying either to be fully aware of the issues involving both.
I kept reading about "puggles" - pug x beagle. Did anyone think they could end up with a crossbred with a wandering urge but without the physique to support it in terms of breathing?
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Mar 11, 2013 12:34:52 GMT
Well personally I wouldn't want to cross a pug with anything - not my cup of tea at all but everyone's taste is different. I just think, for the pet market, why not outcross to make some of the extreme characteristics not quite so extreme? After all, the same as with horses, the people who actually want to show are a minority compared to the people who just want a family pet and friend. If the demand is there, I can't see a problem.
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Post by Philippa on Mar 11, 2013 12:42:51 GMT
But all dogs have potential health issues and people seem to think that crossing one with a different breed will reduce said problems. Why don't people wake up and realise that actually the puppies can pick the bad genes up from both breeds and then where has it got the puppies??
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Post by sometime on Mar 11, 2013 13:01:02 GMT
But all dogs have potential health issues and people seem to think that crossing one with a different breed will reduce said problems. Why don't people wake up and realise that actually the puppies can pick the bad genes up from both breeds and then where has it got the puppies?? My point exactly what worries me is the accidentally on purpose breeding of cockerpoos I have seen where the father is also the grand father and great grandfather of the pups and still being sold for a small fortune. This is purely for financial gain has nothing good going for the pups and is a money spinner as they are officially cross bred so are thought mistakenly to have hybrid vigour. Pedigree dogs good breeders are trying very hard to stick to health tested stock Definitely in the show world where they are trying hard to get rid of the genetic problems even trying to reduce breathing difficulties in the squashed nose breeds. The only way forward for many breeds is to change the breed standard which is happening not sure if any dogs were vetted out a Crufts this year. And no I dont like the idea of making a dog uncomfortable in its genes Surely its time now to make dogs pedigree or otherwise fit healthy and from fit healthy stock.
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Post by brindlerainbow on Mar 11, 2013 13:15:21 GMT
There is a woman lives up on the moor who has a boxer x GSD a mix of 2 fairly big,strong breeds both which can and do show aggression, well the thing is bloody lethal. In my opinion a totally stupid cross. As with all breeds or types, temperament as well as health needs to be considered. The boxer x GSD looks as fit as a flea but you certainly wouldn't go up and say hello to it...... Can't say a puggle appeals to me Of course all breeds have health problems and potential owners should make sure they do their homework on what could go wrong with the dog's health in the future. Boxers are extremely prone to tumours and as I type my boxer is at the vets having mammary tumours removed, she is the 2nd boxer I've had with this problem but it wouldn't put me off having them. There are pro's and con's for both pedigree's and cross breeds. There is no right and wrong as everyone likes different dogs for different reasons, although to me some crosses are not that sensible.
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Post by B_31 on Mar 11, 2013 13:18:49 GMT
Well personally I wouldn't want to cross a pug with anything - not my cup of tea at all but everyone's taste is different. I just think, for the pet market, why not outcross to make some of the extreme characteristics not quite so extreme? After all, the same as with horses, the people who actually want to show are a minority compared to the people who just want a family pet and friend. If the demand is there, I can't see a problem. absolutely - WITH health tests? you are refering to the fact you support BYB's though? with just saying breed etc... thats how we get the problems...! if people are educated and do health tests which are relevent to both breeds - e.g lab and poodle (hips etc - i dont know the specific tests but defo hips for labs!) then there is no issue. i have issues with people breeding crosses for money and no health tests done - just to confirm again - not just a vet check - proper hip scores. ets - of course both breeds can have problems -but reducing the chances of dysplasia for example (as its what both my dogs have)! can be done with hip scores as a dog with crap hips - you wouldnt breed from as it is hereditary - if you didnt know about it and bred anyhow your adding fuel to the fire imo..... responsible people wouldnt do this. my dog is a beautiful, working type cocker, with good lines (his dad has champs in his pedigree etc).... he had his nuts whipped off pretty early on as i dont want to add his dysplasia to any other stock!!..... but other than that he's pretty d**n perfect... but i am responsible therefore he is a pet only!
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dazycutter
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Post by dazycutter on Mar 11, 2013 13:22:52 GMT
I just think, for the pet market, why not outcross to make some of the extreme characteristics not quite so extreme? MM, I think what people are saying is you can inherit bad genes from both parents albeit pure bred or crosses. By the nature of the fact you are cross breeding, you will reduce the characteristics. What I dont understand is if people dont want a pedigree why not go to the rescue centres instead of breeding more cross breds....which is what most rescue centers are filled with I really do think a lot of these crosses are a "designer trend" that will have its day. Doodles were bred for a purpose.... but can someone tell me why people dont just have poodles or airdales or other non shedding breeds... what about the mexican hairless...etc if they have an allergy
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Mar 11, 2013 13:30:37 GMT
Do you know, my friend has a wire haired fox terrier, bought as one of her children has allergies, he's an evil little git and has bitten both of her children? I did a lot of research before selecting a cockerpoo, temperament being top of my list, you've met Millie and you know her temperament is second to none. Maybe I was just lucky, as my reason for choosing a cockerpoo was that I had met one and found him appealing and also friendly and outgoing but still trainable and well behaved. I will say though that the cockerpoos have almost doubled in price since I got millie - I paid £450, have seen them advertised for £750 recently. And also she was one of the first litter the lady had bred, being a responsible breeder of KC reg cockers, so well aware of the possible health issues.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Mar 11, 2013 13:39:39 GMT
I would be very interested to know why a breeder of KC reg cockers (we had three so I know the breed) would want to mate any to a poodle except to make money? All our pure cockers were appealing, friendly, outgoing, trainable and well behaved anyway. They were eye checked and hip scored as well.
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dazycutter
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Post by dazycutter on Mar 11, 2013 13:45:48 GMT
MM, thats a shame.. guess all dogs can bite though... and I agree, Millie is a lovely little woofer apart from when she drank all the PIMMS....
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Post by Milliesmum on Mar 11, 2013 13:47:41 GMT
Well you would have to ask her for her reasons - I do know that the whole litter were spoken for by the time we collected Millie. And to be fair, if she had bred a litter of cockers, instead of cockerpoos, wouldn't money still have been the reason? The price would have been the same anyway? This is what winds me up, it's ok to make money if you have a bit of paper from the kennel club, but with all the same costs it's not OK to make money out of a crossbreed? I'm sure she wouldn't have given the cocker puppies away!
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Post by Philippa on Mar 11, 2013 14:05:22 GMT
Cost me £92 to register 4 puppies and get 5 generation pedigrees for the new owners. More than just a piece of paper.
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Post by Milliesmum on Mar 11, 2013 14:09:27 GMT
I agree that to a showing/breeding owner the registration documents and pedigree matter, of course, but for the pet market which is vast, people really aren't that bothered. Millie was always going to be neutered anyway so as long as she was happy and healthy the paperwork wasn't a problem.
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Post by amumwithapony on Mar 11, 2013 14:17:36 GMT
I personally have a KC reg'd whippet. I selected a whippet after careful consideration of many breeds as a whippet fits in with our life style. Shes fun yet likes quiet time, big enough and butch enough for the OH to walk (though he won't use her pink, sparkly lead), not a handbag dog and has short hair so not masses of fluff on the furniture. I selected a KC reg'd bit*h as I wanted a smaller, less inclined to murder the local cats type of whippet. Her prey drive is still higher than an average dog but containable. Some friends have a non-reg'd dog from racing lines and hes a lot bigger than my girl and a lot keener to the point they worry letting him off the lead.
Also whippets as far as I am aware (and I did do research) have no inherent, herediatory health problems. I also considered a lurcher. However we may have a bash at some breed classes at some point so wanted a dog I could show and a dog I could love and as part of the family.
With regards to cross breeds I see no problem with them. I can fully understand why people would want a cockerpoo as a family pet. I can also see why people would breed them delibrately. They are a popular choice at this moment in time and if prices are going up for them then they are obviously in demand.
As far as I can tell resuce centres are overwhelmed with bull breeds at the moment. Staffys, staffy x's, and all varities of the big heavy bull breeds. I'm sure there are the odd cockerpoos in there but can't recall seeing one?
Something like a cockerpoo is bred for a purpose. It (as far as I can see) fits that purpose perfectly so I see no problem with people supllying the market. As Dazy said done properly its unlikely you will ever make a great deal of money from breeding dogs but probably derive a great deal of pleasure.
You can cross 2 types of horses (TB x Welsh etc) and call it a sports pony/horse. Same principle really. There are PB classes for all types of breeds as well so why not PB classes at crufts?
My bestest ever pony was an arab x welsh. Might have been a mongrel and a designer pony but she was fab. Lived until she was 25, same owner from being 3 (she was on loan to me in her 20's before retiring) and achieved massive amounts of success at everything from x country to pony club games.
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Post by dazycutter on Mar 11, 2013 14:30:45 GMT
these were the expenses for my litter nearly 3 years ago pre mate x 2 80 stud fee 450 petrol to stud dog 100 scan 80 scan 80 advert 40 membership 12 beta puppy 64 vet bed 25 petrol 20 feed 40 vet call out 117 dew claws 85 vet call out puppies 125 KC reg 96 petrol 10 feed 14 puppy pen 60 beta puppy 16 feed 20 feed 30 house sitter 100 lamlac + feed 50 feed 20 feed 30 house sitter 100 puppy packs 30 feed 13 Total 1907 that was before I even sold one...... never mind, the endless phone calls, time for viewings, time to look after them... Yes you make a profit agreed, not why I breed though
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Post by Milliesmum on Mar 11, 2013 14:35:14 GMT
So the KC registration is just a small proportion of the costs then? Everything else would be the same whether registered or cross bred?
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Post by sarahp on Mar 11, 2013 15:46:11 GMT
Using Mm's cocker breeder purely as an example - breeding crossbreds would be only for selling as pets, and it would be a much less consistent litter than a purebred one. With pure bred puppies, she could have been wanting to keep one to breed or show herself, they could be sold for those purposes as well as pets, and the buyers would have much more idea of what they are getting. Most pure breeders love their breed and hope to make a contribution to its future when breeding, whereas crosses are a dead end in those terms. Some only breed at all when they want a puppy to keep for themselves, and aren't there KC regulations about how many litters can be bred from a bit*h on welfare grounds?
The difference between PB horses and crossbred dogs is that horse conformation is based on soundness and being fit for purpose, with breed type added on for breed classes. Many dog breeds have less than ideal conformation judged on this basis written into the breed standard, which varies far more between breeds.
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kayjayem
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Post by kayjayem on Mar 11, 2013 17:21:49 GMT
as a dog with crap hips - you wouldnt breed from as it is hereditary - if you didnt know about it and bred anyhow your adding fuel to the fire imo..... responsible people wouldnt do this. my dog is a beautiful, working type cocker, with good lines (his dad has champs in his pedigree etc).... he had his nuts whipped off pretty early on as i dont want to add his dysplasia to any other stock!!..... but other than that he's pretty d**n perfect... but i am responsible therefore he is a pet only! Out of interest when you found out your dog had hip dysplasia I suppose you informed his breeders and they had his parents neutered as their xrays may have been good but obviously there is a defective gene there!
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dazycutter
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Post by dazycutter on Mar 11, 2013 17:44:44 GMT
So the KC registration is just a small proportion of the costs then? Everything else would be the same whether registered or cross bred? probably MM.. but then a lot of folks dont scan, do dew claws, and pay that much for stud fees for x breds.. who knows, only know I do it for the love of the breed, to improve the breed and only ever when I want another dog to run on.
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dazycutter
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Post by dazycutter on Mar 11, 2013 17:48:01 GMT
B_31 not all HD is genetic or hereditary ... but if the parents were hip scored then it would be unlikely the pup would get it... perhaps the parents weren't....
and just because it comes from champ lines doesn't exclude genetic defects...unfortunately
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Post by sarahp on Mar 11, 2013 18:42:10 GMT
Isn't HD polygenic anyway rather than a single gene so difficult to predict the outcome of any mating, but in general good hip parents should give good hip offspring and bad should give bad.
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kayjayem
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Post by kayjayem on Mar 11, 2013 18:43:41 GMT
So you wouldn't want to breed from these parents again as they have produced at least one pup with HD!
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Post by amumwithapony on Mar 11, 2013 19:31:43 GMT
But surely Sarahp the confirmation and breed standard laid down the WPCS and that of the TB or Arab society is different? Confirmation and 'fit for purpose' can be wildly different even within each breed. A 'show cob' in the welsh world differs (rightly or wrongly) for one suited to an under saddle life. And one deemed as suitable being shown under saddle is as different again from a welsh cob suited to being a 'happy hacker', and again from a cob bred for performance? Similar to dogs I think. My whippet bit*h fits the breed standard with her height, confirmation and action. She comes from champion lines and was bought from a breeder who intended to show her. I compare her to other KC whippets I know (and I know a couple) and she is nothing like them. Its like comparing a SP to a cob. So even within the breed there are variations. The pet market is the biggest market for dogs. I seen many dogs on our daily walks. Of all breeds and sizes. I only know one owner (of border collies) that has ever done any breed shows with their animals. Some owners want to buy a dog and it be what it says on the tin. Cockerpoos by now have their own 'tin' in the mind of the public. Regardless of what any breed standard lays down. Or each individual breed standard. As I say I have yet to see a cockerpoo in a rescue home so owners must be happy with them. The recent rise in the number of staffys/x bred large bull dogs tells a different story and our concern with x breeds should maybe centre around those x's. Bull greyhounds for instance are a huge problem according to my local dog warden. Thats some sort of mastif x with a grey hound/lurcher. Breed for a combination of speed and power combined with a high prey drive. Far more concerning than a cocker x poodle I think
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dazycutter
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Post by dazycutter on Mar 11, 2013 19:42:55 GMT
Isn't HD polygenic anyway rather than a single gene so difficult to predict the outcome of any mating, but in general good hip parents should give good hip offspring and bad should give bad. its not always hereditary so no, good parents doesn't mean a HD free pup.
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kayjayem
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Post by kayjayem on Mar 11, 2013 19:49:11 GMT
Totally agree AMWAP! I think those who get on their high horse re crossbreds would be far better employed channelling their venom at the breeders of Staffy's! They can be lovely dogs if carefully bred and reared and homed with responsible people but sadly this is often not the case. If you look on the website of any dog rehoming centre I would say 75% are staffy or staffy crosses. We also are the vets for the local dog warden and it's heart-breaking the number of healthy young staffy's that come in for pts but they would never be safe to rehome. They are probably pure bred and maybe even have pedigrees but no, few will be from health tested parents, so they are bred for profit! Oh sorry forgot, it's only people breeding crossbreds who do it for profit isn't it That is probably one of the main reasons people would rather buy a first cross from parents they know(and yes they ARE often health tested despite what the experts on here seem to think) than go to the rescue centre.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Mar 11, 2013 20:12:44 GMT
I haven't come across any venom, only people politely putting their opinions, and some facts.
Basic conformation is NOT the same as breed standard, but common for all horses - it's to do with bone angles and biomechanics. Anything being ridden needs the same basic correct bone angles, and it doesn't vary with the actual ridden job chosen. You may well have a point re an inhand showing though!
But whatever I say some will take no notice I know.
As for staffys - many labelled as such are mislabelled, anyone who knows proper individuals of the breed knows that to humans they are nothing but friendly and welcoming, although if encouraged they can get the habit of fighting other dogs. Of course I know there are many pitbull types in rescue centres, often from irresponsible breeders and owners. Doubtless that will get me jumped on too.
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dazycutter
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Post by dazycutter on Mar 11, 2013 20:23:40 GMT
I am sorry, Sarah, but I disagree, breed standards allow for the dog to be bred to do the job it is intended. poor confirmation in dogs also means ill health such as HD and OCD for example. so breed standards have a very relevant place in the general conformation of a dog. To think it doesn't would be naive.
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kayjayem
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Post by kayjayem on Mar 11, 2013 20:31:21 GMT
There have been some far from polite posts on here, maybe you missed them, and a lot of the facts are dubious! I do know staffy's very well I have friends and family who have had them and as I said they are lovely dogs in the right hands but unfortunately they are massively overbred for profit by the wrong type of people who sell to the wrong type of people. I also know the dogs I have seen pts are not mislabelled, I have seen them with my own eyes, not pitbulls or any other crosses but pure staffy's. Maybe I have seen more than you have through my job. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you are "jumped on" just that you are not always right and can't expect everyone to agree! There are more than one opinion on everything and in some things other people will have wider experience than you do!
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