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Post by skewbaldspen on Aug 12, 2013 11:07:38 GMT
I have a 15hh native coloured - he is going very sweetly and pretty established in the school in walk, trot and canter. I am going to put him in a double for the showring, a friend recommended the weymouth to go alongside a a wilkie french link snaffles as the bradoon bit as sometimes he anticipates the gallop etc in the showring and I could do with a little more control.
Is a french link compatible as a bradoon with a weymouth? I have seen a few show horses with wilkie sides on the snaffle part of a double.
Any help is greatly appreciated as I am a little confused!
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Post by lulah on Aug 12, 2013 11:16:51 GMT
I havr nothing against wilkies on thier own. But I hate seeing them as part of a double.
The whole point of the double is that the snaffle bridoon should be simple and the weymouth provides the poll pressure/curb and should only be used when nessacery.
You shouldnt need to use a wilkie as then yoyou will be using 2 poll pressure bits. Defies the object of the art of a double bridle.
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Post by lulah on Aug 12, 2013 11:32:02 GMT
Also just to add if you go into the lounge/snug area you will find a detailed disscusion about it under "standard of horsemaster ship at Ri"
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Post by skewbaldspen on Aug 12, 2013 12:17:14 GMT
Thanks, I have just read the thread - very useful advice. Safe to say I will be sticking to a normal bradoon
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Post by gillwales on Aug 12, 2013 15:16:18 GMT
PHEW! !!! So pleased to see that. Please explain to your friend the action of a wilkie and how a bradoon should work.
I am now on a mission to stop these bits being inappropriately used.
If you have a bit problem do air it on HG as there are a lot of experienced people willing to help and advise.
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Post by sjm on Aug 12, 2013 16:01:00 GMT
Seen too many wilkies used in a double, I agree too much poll pressure
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Post by skewbaldspen on Aug 12, 2013 17:51:43 GMT
Rode him tonight in a 'normal' bradoon with the weymouth and he was very light and relaxed so pleased I didnt try try the wilkie. Showed my friend the thread and she was as shocked as me!! Thanks again for the advice
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Post by gillwales on Aug 12, 2013 18:55:40 GMT
glad it has worked out for you
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Post by bubbles1822 on Aug 18, 2013 21:19:10 GMT
I have a Wilkie bit with copper rollers inset in it on my double for my mare otherwise there is no way we would ever get near a shape. I have tried alsorts of combinations before we settled on this (me and my friend who's had ponies for years!) so if it works I dont see the issue!
The other ponies I ride one has a straight double for the showing and we ride in the same wilkie as above at home and the other rides in a Pelham with the rollers on it. I do think bit choice does depend on the pony and its nature and temperament.
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Post by gillwales on Aug 19, 2013 3:54:07 GMT
bubbles, all I can say then is your pony is not ready for a double bridle and in using a wilkie for the bradoon you are completely defeating the object and way a double bridle should be used. The action of a bradoon is to RAISE the head, a wilkie will put pressure on the poll to LOWER it, which is the action of a weymouth. NO horse or pony should need both if they have had the correct schooling. It seems to me that you are not riding from behind, i.e. you are dependent on your hands obtaining an outline has opposed to riding forward into the bit which is the correct way of going.
Try getting some lessons from a qualified instructor or go to pony club rather than rely on a friend who cannot have the necessary knowledge or she/ he would not suggest this bit combination in your poor pony.
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Aug 19, 2013 9:37:15 GMT
I do so agree with gillwales! Daughter's dressage trainer describes it as moving them from front wheel drive, which is where yours must still be, through 4wd to rear wheel drive, achieved by correct schooling with lateral work (which is not advanced in its early stages, all my babies learn to leg yield when just backed to teach obedience to the leg, first from the ground then from on top, coupled with lots of changes of rein, transitions both within and between the paces. When they have learned to take more weight on the hindquarters and bring them underneath they will come naturally onto the bit without having to be forced by hand and bit action.
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Post by gillwales on Aug 19, 2013 17:47:59 GMT
I do so agree with gillwales! Daughter's dressage trainer describes it as moving them from front wheel drive, which is where yours must still be, through 4wd to rear wheel drive, achieved by correct schooling with lateral work (which is not advanced in its early stages, all my babies learn to leg yield when just backed to teach obedience to the leg, first from the ground then from on top, coupled with lots of changes of rein, transitions both within and between the paces. When they have learned to take more weight on the hindquarters and bring them underneath they will come naturally onto the bit without having to be forced by hand and bit action. what people need to think about is where the engine is, and like a good sports car it is in the rear! Those that use the front end will have their horses and ponies on the forehand. |
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Post by bubbles1822 on Aug 19, 2013 17:56:28 GMT
She came from a difficult back ground and we had lessons from a lady who breaks and schools top dressage ponies. She rode her and helped me to try several different bits combinations and this was what we decidied worked best for us! Everyone is welcome to an opinion... But this is what works for my pony! She isn't on the forehand and does move from behind!!
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Aug 19, 2013 18:07:41 GMT
Well without knowing any more that's not a dressage trainer I personally would use. I'm firmly old fashioned and classical, which having watched some of the Olympic dressage last year, is where the winners were all coming from. Lightness, grace and obedience rather than heavy handed forcing. And I don't agree with rollkeur.
So now I wait for the resulting flak!
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Post by bubbles1822 on Aug 19, 2013 18:12:25 GMT
Im not worried what people think! I know what works for my pony and hopefully people don't judge when they don't know the history and how the pony is to ride!
We had her in a Swale when she went though her worst time however that was frowned upon by most judges so we tried something else...
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Aug 19, 2013 18:17:21 GMT
That is your perogative of course, but whatever the history I would work and school to sort the pony out if mine rather than take the quick fix option.
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Post by bubbles1822 on Aug 19, 2013 22:06:57 GMT
Its not a quick fix it never is! I've been sat on her for 4 hours trying to trot a simple 20metre circle or change bends across a figure of eight! And even then we may only compromise on the issue we are having! And just because we manage the compromise we may still continue this arguement for 2 weeks until she decides she will do it! Even though we may have trotted a 1000 circles some days she won't! We have moved mountains with her! 6 years ago she would think nothing of running though 6 jump wings in a line, people, other horses if we were riding together! She used to ditch me into the fence if she just felt like it! So by using the bits I use it definately isnt a quick fix.... Anyway I'll leave it at this...
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Post by lulah on Aug 20, 2013 10:37:39 GMT
Bubbles
I can't actually understand why you are using a double in the first place, regardless of the combination of bits, if your mare takes 4hours to trot a circle! and even then you say you have to compromise.
I'm not sure why your dressage instructor hasn't said this and I'm shocked she suggested a Wilkie as the bradoon.
Dressage is based on the classical way on riding. A horse should only be ridden in a double once fully established and working correctly in a snaffle. if this was the case then their would be no need for the Wilkie. Sounds like you and your mare are not ready for a double bridle especially if this is the only thing that will get her to "throw a shape" which again is wrong. A true outline is where the horse is working from behind and then they bring their own head in to balance themselves. it sound like the combination of bit's you are using is what's bringing her head in. Her back end will just be trailing along. Nothing will be achieved.
This is why wilkies and poll pressure bits aren't allowed in dressage. apart from the Weymouth of course which is as you should know isn't used untill elementary.
For this reason I don't know why your dressage instructor is letting you ride as part of a double.
I don't want you to feel like I'm attacking you so constructively I would suggest putting her back in a simple snaffle and starting from scratch. Lunging would be a great place to start with getting the right bends on circles. And like Sarah p said leg yielding to get her to move and bend easier.
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Post by bubbles1822 on Aug 20, 2013 12:15:58 GMT
Riding her In a snaffle would be a complete disaster... Those issues were from when I first started with her in which we went though numerous different bits from snaffled to wilkins to Pelhams... Its hard to explain in writing but of the serveral people who have seen one of her episodes they all realise the effort and time I have put in from ground work to ridden to solve the issues that can be solved... The outline isn't what the bits looked to solve... the wilke is used as it has the copper rollers that stop her from locking her jaw around it... We now manage most of the time without issues and schooling isn't the nightmare it was... Although occasionally we have to go back steps before we can move forward... We do lost of leg yielding, bend changes circles serpentines figure of eight and lunge work with her.
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Aug 20, 2013 12:19:06 GMT
Snaffle with copper rollers then?
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Post by gillwales on Aug 20, 2013 17:47:13 GMT
Bubbles, I am not going to waste my time trying to educate you, luckily this thread had helped at least one person and her mount. You continue in your ignorance.
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Post by brontepearson on Aug 20, 2013 20:37:45 GMT
Cannot get over how rude some people are on here, it all depends on each horse or pony's personal preference.
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Post by gillwales on Aug 20, 2013 20:46:42 GMT
have you read the thread? Have you understood how the bits work? NO horse would like this combination! I cannot get over how ignorant people are.
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Post by brontepearson on Aug 20, 2013 20:52:42 GMT
Have you met and ridden every horse on the planet? There are plenty of horses and ponies that show in a wilkie double and both go and place extremely well, mine included. If a horse is uncomfortable then surely he would not go well.
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Aug 20, 2013 21:58:11 GMT
It's not a question of choice, but of biomechanics, as in how the bones, joints and muscles of the horse work and how the mechanical mode of action of the bits used affects them.
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Post by lulah on Aug 20, 2013 23:12:29 GMT
If a horse is uncomfortable then surely he would not go well. So you would think, but thier is such a thing called "learned helplessness" Anyway yes its up to you what bit you put in your horses mouth but by using 2 poll pressure bits you are defeating the object of how a double bridle is designed to work, thats a fact. Im going to leave it here. |
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