sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Apr 26, 2015 10:07:28 GMT
I was looking up something else in my bitting book by Elwyn Hartley Edwards and found this:-
"There are horses who do not take kindly to poll pressure. Horsemen of previous generations condemned the use of poll pressure as being contrary to the pure principles of working from the relaxation of the lower jaw. They considered it to be a coercive force that made the gaol of lightness in the hand impossible to achieve. The more I think about it and the older I get the more I find myself in agreement."
Just thought I'd put it up for consideration as there are so many queries on here about overbending, leaning on the bit and the like and the advent of wilkis which rely on poll pressure. This was written before they were invented.
Tin hat at the ready!
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Post by aengusog on Apr 28, 2015 20:37:51 GMT
Any pressure applied to horses is damaging if there is no relief from it. Used as a means of control by coercion, without timely release, poll pressure will cause resistance in the horse, and that will have a counter-productive affect on the way the horse goes.
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Post by fanfarefan on May 4, 2015 14:13:00 GMT
poll pressure is afalse manouervre , for want of a better word , for a horse , its forced ,,,,, what happened to The Hand to mouth,,,,, that being the most delicate part of a horse , therefore our hands should be the same
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on May 4, 2015 14:18:13 GMT
What happened to riding through to the hand from the leg and seat?
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Post by sageandonionagain on May 4, 2015 18:41:44 GMT
;)Well you know my views on the wilkie! A more sensitive horse will overbend, whilst a heavier type will tend to drop on the forehand. Both become habitual and are a devil to correct.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 4, 2015 20:28:29 GMT
Good to see you back S&O!
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Post by sageandonionagain on May 5, 2015 8:57:43 GMT
Thankyou sarahp, I hope you and yours are all well.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 5, 2015 9:58:10 GMT
Arthritis progresses, ponies get fewer and smaller. Such is life! How're you?
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Post by sageandonionagain on May 5, 2015 9:59:54 GMT
Oh! I am preparing for Rio!
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Post by Guestless on May 5, 2015 13:09:35 GMT
Good to see you back S&O! Ditto! I just commented the other week that we still missed you.  |
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Post by sageandonionagain on May 5, 2015 15:56:18 GMT
Yes I know, your comment was passed on to me and it encouraged me to return, older (unfortunately) and wiser.
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Post by ponymum on May 5, 2015 19:34:03 GMT
I agree with what you are saying...And I often compare training methods to us as humans to simplify things...and poll pressure is like us having someone place a heavy weight on the top of our head...and we will automatically TRY to push against it.The only difference to the horse is that they are pulled down , not pushed! This is where we see ponies go behind the contact , as that is how they learn to hold themselves...And then they become tight across the back and cannot move forward from behind as they have been tied in....
Why people cant start a horse in a loose ring bit and give them the opportunity to carry themselves is beyond me! At least IF they struggle they can try an eggbut snaffle , but no they go straight for a wilkie and achieve a false outline then wonder why they cant do anything with them down the line when they are attempting to go into dressage where as we all know many bits are not dressage legal!
ETA - I understand all horses and ponies are different and each may have different needs due to the size of mouth , tongue etc , but I wouldnt discount any bit , but prefer a horse to go in a natural outline where ever possible...
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Post by Guestless on May 5, 2015 21:15:55 GMT
Why people cant start a horse in a loose ring bit and give them the opportunity to carry themselves is beyond me! I wanted to start my latest baby in a loose ring, but he puts everything in his mouth and that included the bit rings  so I had to change him to a hanging cheek to stop him sucking the bit into his mouth! Your post has made me think though and I may try a loose ring again now that he is used to being ridden. |
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 6, 2015 7:38:09 GMT
A fulmer snaffle may have helped with this too.
Ponymum - the "comparing training methods to humans" worked for me when asked to clamp my teeth together as if constrained by a tight flash or drop noseband. Like that it's impossible to relax the jaw, as required by a horse being ridden in a bit in able to flex properly.
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Post by ponymum on May 6, 2015 8:51:10 GMT
Yes Sarahp , also a bit like when the horses are having there teeth rasped and cannot move there jaws , makes me think a lot about training methods...I may get a copy of that book (if I can find it ) sounds a good read x
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 6, 2015 9:35:34 GMT
What, the "Bitting" book? I have three by EHE, "The Saddle" and "Training Aids" as well. Old now, first pub. 1927 although my copies 1990 and there are of course many new designs now but to me the reasoned theory behind everything still holds good. I love to read the fruits of so much knowledge when faced with so much ignorance today. Tin hat please!
They don't go into training methods, the flash noseband thing came second-hand from Jennie L-C. But the books I learned lots of the way I handle and train horses are older too, classical by inclination, with some more modern stuff added on.
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Post by Guestless on May 6, 2015 16:31:19 GMT
A fulmer snaffle may have helped with this too. Yep, I thought so too, but he kept trying to get the full cheek into his mouth! I've never had one that was quite as mouthy as he was, but thankfully he's not as bad now.  |
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on May 6, 2015 16:42:30 GMT
A fulmer snaffle may have helped with this too. Yep, I thought so too, but he kept trying to get the full cheek into his mouth! I've never had one that was quite as mouthy as he was, but thankfully he's not as bad now. I had thought of the fulmer as well - now have visions of him trying to yoar his mouth open enough to get it in his mouth LOL |
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Post by Guestless on May 6, 2015 21:18:45 GMT
Yep, I thought so too, but he kept trying to get the full cheek into his mouth! I've never had one that was quite as mouthy as he was, but thankfully he's not as bad now. I had thought of the fulmer as well - now have visions of him trying to yoar his mouth open enough to get it in his mouth LOL I know, I wish I had taken pics of him - he would grab the bottom end of the cheek in his mouth and then try to wedge the rest in - he didn't quite manage it but he didn't give up trying and I was worried about him doing some damage to his mouth. He never tried the same thing with the hanging cheek so I think the stability of the cheekpiece being attached to a separate ring must have made it harder. |
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Post by sageandonionagain on May 7, 2015 6:33:23 GMT
I am eagerly awaiting the launch of the Fairfax Performance Bridle in May 2015. Apparently a huge amount of scientific research and trial has gone into its design for comfort, particularly poll pressure relief, which contradicts the use of poll pressure bits! Both my vet and my physio are raving about it.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 7, 2015 6:49:18 GMT
Interesting. And I noticed that they used a leather curb chain with it, rather than a metal one.
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Post by ponymum on May 7, 2015 8:10:33 GMT
Funnily enough , I only use a leather curb on my ponies !
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 7, 2015 8:21:22 GMT
Yes, I always did too.
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Post by catkin on May 14, 2015 9:41:56 GMT
Interesting thread!
I think the key here is that horses differ so greatly and whilst we can use basic, sound training methods (and should do to begin with) at some point you need to adapt to suit the horse. It could be its conformation, movement or temperament that means different approaches. I think this applies to bits too. What works on one, doesn't on another, so we need to adhere to basic good practice and then be open minded and adaptable.
On the poll pressure, I suppose what I try hard to concentrate on is working a horse forward INTO its bridle. Used properly, some poll 'pressure' does then encourage the submission and outline required.
The other point is the rider - how big and strong, how brave, how experienced. This must make a difference too.
With children, I am afraid, that I will always advocate erring on the side of safety, so to me to slightly 'over-bit' is much better than lack of control and lugging a pony around.
I have this bit book too and whilst it does not incorporate some of the more modern bits, its definitely a must-have!
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Post by sageandonionagain on May 14, 2015 20:45:48 GMT
Safety has always got to be number one but the best way to be safe is to have a well schooled, trained and obedient pony. I have come to the conclusion, from a lot of posts regarding children, that some mothers are very happy to try this that and the other bit to give the illusion (unsuccessfully) that the pony is on the bridle, to get its head down (poll pressure), then another bit to stop it leaning having got the head down and then yet other when poor pony goes overbent. YET these people are very unhappy and sometimes insulted at the suggestion the pony may benefit from schooling. The cost is baulked at yet it is an absolute necessity especially where a child is unable to school themselves even with tuition due to physical size and lack of concentration because of age. Where schooling is offered, this is often for a few weeks and then that's the pony sorted. Wrong, schooling is an essential and is an on going thing for pony and rider.
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Post by catkin on May 15, 2015 8:49:58 GMT
sageandonion - I agree. Tuition for mums, ponies and children is a must. And in my experience, almost always better received from an expert outsider with whom your own children will not argue!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 21:39:36 GMT
I have warned peeps for yrs about this action, it makes them back off the bit and hind legs are not engaged freely, creates a horrible picture to watch when judging. At last some agreement! Great.
I find a French link snaffle is brilliant for starting a pony, especially an m&m as they have a fatter tongue than the riding ponies.
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Post by shelliewilson on May 17, 2015 22:43:51 GMT
Couldn't agree more I always use the french link and always had great results x
Sent from my GT-I9505 using proboards
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Post by sageandonionagain on May 20, 2015 14:27:15 GMT
Disappointed! The Fairfax bridle is £500 for the snaffle and £600 for the double. Also fitted to the horse/pony in a particular way so not, in theory, suitable for use on more than one. I haven't seen it in the flesh and would like to, but really I would have to see some miraculous improvement in way of going to pay that.
Thoughts on why bitting comes up so frequently amongst showing riders. I think a lot of riders want nothing in their hands and the feeling of 'lightness' is sought. So the phase "my horse loves this bit" comes up again and again. Horses don't love any bit, lets be fair! they wouldn't choose to have it in their mouth, horses like good, flexible, sympathetic riders with good hands that offer fair and consistent communication. A bit is a means of communication with the horse and so the horse must actually must work into it. A horse that is fearful of the bit, backs off it and is light cannot be schooled, yet so many riders think that because they feel nothing is their hands, the horse looks delightful and is on the bridle.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 20, 2015 17:03:03 GMT
I always liked my ponies to be light in hand and to ride generally as I never had much strength - but definitely ON the bit and not behind it! My trainers were classical dressage people rather than showing people.
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so I had to change him to a hanging cheek to stop him sucking the bit into his mouth! Your post has made me think though and I may try a loose ring again now that he is used to being ridden. 
