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Post by robertparkerjones on Jul 5, 2015 20:30:05 GMT
How unfortunate that so many people feel results are fixed, placings predetermined and qualifications handed out in return for sponsorship or friendship! Stand in the middle of the ring and see what judges see and perhaps your opinion would change somewhat! Riding, conformation and breed type seem to take on a new dimension when you're judging from the middle of the ring. Do exhibitors look at and see other ponies, are they critical enough of their own exhibits, are they able to compare and judge fairly! There will always be favourites and consistent winners and they will pick up the lions share of rosettes! This thread has been circulating for years and years, yes there are probably some decisions which are unfair but lets not assume that every judge falls into this category of being a cheat. Do vote with your feet, keep a little black book but enter into competition with an open and optimistic mind! I could never continue doing anything that I really didn't enjoy! I know I don't make everyone happy but I am always pleased with my decisions and never have any regrets at the end of the day! I always have a reason for a decision and am more than happy to share that reason!
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Post by lion on Jul 5, 2015 21:57:50 GMT
Mr R P JONES, I watched you judging at Northleach this season,in my opinion you were very fair with the performance marks, not like some judges , the lower you are in the line up the lower the marks, you are one of the fair judges out there that give us HP competitors the reason to carry on doing what we love,wish there were more judges like you.
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Post by cayo on Jul 6, 2015 7:42:39 GMT
While its perfectly true to say that at ringside you cannot see the faults that the judge sees in front of them ,the ridden performance is there for all to see ,yet horses doing a super display will end up with a really low mark while others that have clearly not performed as well come away with much higher marks,now why is this ,a horse pulling ,looking unsettled ,head tossing ,wrong leg ,breaking trot or canter ,over bent ,head in clouds ,galloping before asked ect ect everyone sees the ridden performance so why the low or high marks ? i would really like to see a comments column on a mark sheet it would so help competitors understand why they got the mark they did and see where they went wrong or right .As it stands with no comments to explain its hardly surprising that people see high marks for what looked like a poor performance as favoritism .I also have a question when judging performance is the judge supposed to judge just the performance and base the mark on that alone ,or are they supposed to include their opinion of type and conformation ? i often think when a horse does a good ride performance and gets low mark that perhaps the ride judge is taking into account type and conformation rather than the performance its self .
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Post by ponymum on Jul 6, 2015 8:42:58 GMT
Good Point Cayo! I have also pondered that in a scenario where there are 2 judges, one for conf , the other for performance, the ride judge must only award marks for the performance, but again I have a hunch that their own "type" comes into part of their decision making when awarding the marks, which really isnt upto them! Its the conf judge that awards marks for conf and type....which is why I also think the 2 judges shouldnt confer until after they have both judged their phases....
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Post by sjw87 on Jul 6, 2015 8:48:24 GMT
I do think that a comments section would help as judges should always be able to explain why they have made the decision they have. It's all well and good saying that what a judge sees in the ring is different to the view from outside but they should be able to validate this.
In sj/xc, it's obvious when faults are incurred and in dressage, every move gets commented upon. In showing however, there is often absolutely no feedback. I am all for self critique and sometimes, you know there was a blip in your show or something else simply went better on the day so can accept a lower placing but when you feel like your horse performed well but the marks/placings don't reflect it, an explanation would help greatly. In the past, a lot of judges used to give you a brief comment when handing out rosettes which helped but I find in recent years that judges prefer to just say nothing in relation to their decision.
I think this would particularly help in mixed type coloured classes or mixed breed m&m classes - judges will always have a preference on type/breed but should judge exhibits on a level playing field which often doesn't happen sadly. If they had to offer justification, I would hope it would help prevent a mediocre exibit of their preferred type/breed be placed above a good example of what is not their preference.
Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards
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Post by robertparkerjones on Jul 6, 2015 9:29:45 GMT
Discussion between judges is vital if a class is to be judged well and reflect the whole class, they should be working together not against each other. With discussion the initial line up will reflect the opinion of both judges. One judge should judge performance and only that, it's not just about penalising mistakes, way of going is complex and includes transitions, paces and carriage as well as presence.
Again performance can appear very different from the centre (I have watched from both positions and it's a fact) Conformation judges judge only conformation and movement and their mark should reflect what they see. It is when allocating conformation marks that opinions differ, what one judge thinks deserves 45 could be 35 to another judge. Neither is right or wrong as it is personal opinion not an exact science. It is easy for a judge to comment on performance (people who know me know that I do) but conformation and type is different! Exhibitors would be devastated if judges were brutally honest, often a large percentage of animals are not conformationally good enough for the classes they are entered in! Would you really want to be told that you would be best selling your horse/pony and finding something better?
Comments may be made about production, tips that can made to help improve the picture...... tails too long, plaits too big, browbands too big etc. Comments may be made about performance, not using the ring, jerky transitions, poor walk, scratchy gallop etc etc.
What I do find amazing is how often what judges "dislike" are published in National publications...... do exhibitors read and digest? Apparently not!!! I have publicly (as have other) stated my great dislike of showing jackets that are too short in the body and sleeves making the riders look freaky, this goes hand in hand with over exposed posteriors. Does it improve the overall picture "NO"...... it spoils the overall picture!!
Along with poor walk, over fast, overbent trotting and a host of other things reported the majority are still doing them!
I am happy to share comments as are many but bear in mind, do you really want to know so that you can go away and improve or so that you can return to the lorry and share what has been said with friends and reply "What does he know anyway? What a load of rubbish"!!!
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Post by Showing999 on Jul 6, 2015 10:22:06 GMT
To a judge like yourself Mr R P Jones this thread may read a little unfairly and sound like people having a moan, but most have made the point that we appreciate not all judges fall into the 'facey' category and those that are genuine like your good self should be appreciated and applauded. We've been lucky enough to be judged by you and remember your kind and helpful comments afterwards - sadly something that because of strict time tables is now seen less and less.
Sadly it does go on, its known about, and its not complained about to the correct authorities because a) it costs b) its usually a Producer c) its not worth the effort because nothing will be done about it - and at the end of the day its hard to prove.
I've seen it in showing time and time again, I've been told whose going to win numerous times, when sadly not always deserved. Marks on score sheets altered and not signed, I've been told from a friend that the breeder of their pony has rung them up and told them to make the journey to a show farther away than they normally go because the judge owes them a favour and they'l get their ticket there, which they did. As already said on this thread Producers judging should be stopped especially in qualifier classes, I'm surprised its allowed? Surely competing in the same class over the season means the impartiality needed to be a fair judge is affected?
I fear showing is fast becoming a Producers domain and more and more of the talented HP/Amateur people will eventually give in altogether and move to a fairer playing field
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Post by Judging on Jul 6, 2015 10:24:58 GMT
I have been following this with interest being HP, i go to shows with someone who has been competing and also judges for many years. They have actually been told by other judges that the pony would have place higher if they had rode rather than me because i am unknown... speaks volumes. but i take it tongue in cheek and know i must continue to show, ride and improve in anyway possible to hold my own.
Out of interest, i would like to know the steps involved in becoming a judge for the societies. if anyone could point me in the right direction id be grateful! I've been to a few young judges days so have a good idea of what is involved!
I also like the data sheet idea so the ponies marks are tracked and abnormal ones highlighted...
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Post by Judging on Jul 6, 2015 10:28:14 GMT
To a judge like yourself Mr R P Jones this thread may read a little unfairly and sound like people having a moan, but most have made the point that we appreciate not all judges fall into the 'facey' category and those that are genuine like your good self should be appreciated and applauded. We've been lucky enough to be judged by you and remember your kind and helpful comments afterwards - sadly something that because of strict time tables is now seen less and less. Sadly it does go on, its known about, and its not complained about to the correct authorities because a) it costs b) its usually a Producer c) its not worth the effort because nothing will be done about it - and at the end of the day its hard to prove. I've seen it in showing time and time again, I've been told whose going to win numerous times, when sadly not always deserved. Marks on score sheets altered and not signed, I've been told from a friend that the breeder of their pony has rung them up and told them to make the journey to a show farther away than they normally go because the judge owes them a favour and they'l get their ticket there, which they did. As already said on this thread Producers judging should be stopped especially in qualifier classes, I'm surprised its allowed? Surely competing in the same class over the season means the impartiality needed to be a fair judge is affected? I fear showing is fast becoming a Producers domain and more and more of the talented HP/Amateur people will eventually give in altogether and move to a fairer playing field Totally agree with trying other disciplines for the past 2 years I've started WHP classes. soo much more fun!
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Post by the showing register on Jul 6, 2015 11:46:21 GMT
E mail theshowingregister@yahoo.co.uk and they will e mail you info about becoming a judge and the various stages.
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Post by janetbushell on Jul 6, 2015 12:14:59 GMT
I have been following this with interest being HP, i go to shows with someone who has been competing and also judges for many years. They have actually been told by other judges that the pony would have place higher if they had rode rather than me because i am unknown... speaks volumes. but i take it tongue in cheek and know i must continue to show, ride and improve in anyway possible to hold my own. Out of interest, i would like to know the steps involved in becoming a judge for the societies. if anyone could point me in the right direction id be grateful! I've been to a few young judges days so have a good idea of what is involved! I also like the data sheet idea so the ponies marks are tracked and abnormal ones highlighted... Not sure which panel you are interested in but BSPS rule 494 explains the steps you need to take to find out how to apply for the BSPS panel & likewise NCPA lists the requirements in their members information, rules & handbook The starting point for all societies is normally at least membership of that society, sometimes minimum ages & sometimes further criteria before you may apply.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jul 6, 2015 12:54:12 GMT
I have been following this with interest being HP, i go to shows with someone who has been competing and also judges for many years. They have actually been told by other judges that the pony would have place higher if they had rode rather than me because i am unknown... speaks volumes. but i take it tongue in cheek and know i must continue to show, ride and improve in anyway possible to hold my own. Out of interest, i would like to know the steps involved in becoming a judge for the societies. if anyone could point me in the right direction id be grateful! I've been to a few young judges days so have a good idea of what is involved! I also like the data sheet idea so the ponies marks are tracked and abnormal ones highlighted... Not sure which panel you are interested in but BSPS rule 494 explains the steps you need to take to find out how to apply for the BSPS panel & likewise NCPA lists the requirements in their members information, rules & handbook The starting point for all societies is normally at least membership of that society, sometimes minimum ages & sometimes further criteria before you may apply. Indeed, all Societies and Associations have good guidelines on 'how to become a judge'. Simply, application to the 'body' or Breed Society of your choice will result in you being furnished with the rules and requirements. "becoming a Judge" certainly does not happen overnight and there will be a set criteria for all Societies /Associations. As Janet Bushell has stated, you will be required to become a Member of your chosen Society / Association - you will fill in an application form and provide a relevant 'CV'. You will be required to attend an Assessment. You will need to know the rules /Breed Type etc. and be able to articulate this in a natural, experienced way and not just learned off the page and chanted out by rote. You will need to be able to apply your knowledge to the animals which have been kindly provided for the practical Assessment. If you are successful at Practical Assessment, you will then be expected to 'Probation' the following year - over ?one or ?two seasons with a set number of Senior Judges. You will be expected to travel outwith your area for this. And, for example, for the BSHA, you will not have a choice of whom you go with, you are given the Show and the Senior judge and you make every effort to attend. For many Societies, the NPS being one, it is MANDATORY that you will Steward for the Society for whom you are training. Knowledge and correct application of the relevant Rule Book is paramount. Once accepted (if accepted) you will be placed on a "B" Panel (with the NPS) - not in a position to Judge HOYS / RIHS qualifiers until, over time, you are elevated to the "A" Panel / gained your "STAR" with the BSPS etc. So, it's utterly not a pushover' to have achieved the knowledge and the credentials to stand in the middle of the ring and adjudicate over other's animals. Still keen?
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Post by Guest45 on Jul 6, 2015 14:50:07 GMT
At the Fell society breed show all ponies are measured on the showground before classes start and all are checked for false hair as per breed society rules, there's certainly some different looking ponies in the classes compared to what they look like the rest of the season! I can't imagine it would work with the volume of horses at other big shows but works for the fells! This isn't quite accurate, all inhand mares and geldings aged between 4 and 7 are measured at the breed show and other ponies may be randomly measured throughout the day. So I suppose potentially an overheight pony could take the ticket in the HOYS qualifier as the HOYS ponies probably won't be in those inhand classes. All ponies aged 3 and over are measured at the stallion and colt show, though. And there's no way of getting round it as you can't have your back number until you've been measured!! IF THE BREED SHOWS CAN MEASURE WHY DON'T THE HOYS CLASSES? SO MANY OVER HEIGHT ANIMALS - MINES UPTO HEIGHT AND LOOKS THE SMALLEST IN THE CLASS. WOULD ANYONE BE INTERESTED IN A SIGNED PETITION TO IMPLEMENT THIS AND WE'LL GO TO THE BOARD AT HOYS? THESE OVER HEIGHT PONIES ARE NOT TRUE TO TYPE AND SHOULDN'T BE REPRESENTING THESE BREEDS AT THE FINAL. I'M SEEING MANY- PARTICULARLY IN THE M & M CLASSES BUT I DON'T DOUBT IT IS AN ISSUE IN THEM ALL?
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Post by sad on Jul 6, 2015 15:37:26 GMT
I have been told by a hoys judge if he knew said producer was coming into the ring his ponies would be top of the line and get the ticket no matter what its sad its come to this and not giving everyone a fair chance.
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Post by Guestless on Jul 6, 2015 15:57:31 GMT
This isn't quite accurate, all inhand mares and geldings aged between 4 and 7 are measured at the breed show and other ponies may be randomly measured throughout the day. So I suppose potentially an overheight pony could take the ticket in the HOYS qualifier as the HOYS ponies probably won't be in those inhand classes. All ponies aged 3 and over are measured at the stallion and colt show, though. And there's no way of getting round it as you can't have your back number until you've been measured!! I've not done the Fell breed show for the last few years but it used to be all ponies were measured before collecting your number unless you had a height certificate. To be fair, HOYS ponies have to provide a height certificate with their entries so there is probably less need to measure those ponies than the others doing only ridden classes.
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Post by Guest45 on Jul 6, 2015 16:01:06 GMT
I agree with you but how many people get them measured under by the vet accompanied by a nice little back hander? Some of them are HUGE at hoys- so I think they should all be measured before getting the back number.
Why do judges want to waste time judging over height animals that aren't true to type? It should be done up front not once the pony gets the ticket!
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Post by Judging on Jul 6, 2015 17:54:00 GMT
Not sure which panel you are interested in but BSPS rule 494 explains the steps you need to take to find out how to apply for the BSPS panel & likewise NCPA lists the requirements in their members information, rules & handbook The starting point for all societies is normally at least membership of that society, sometimes minimum ages & sometimes further criteria before you may apply. Indeed, all Societies and Associations have good guidelines on 'how to become a judge'. Simply, application to the 'body' or Breed Society of your choice will result in you being furnished with the rules and requirements. "becoming a Judge" certainly does not happen overnight and there will be a set criteria for all Societies /Associations. As Janet Bushell has stated, you will be required to become a Member of your chosen Society / Association - you will fill in an application form and provide a relevant 'CV'. You will be required to attend an Assessment. You will need to know the rules /Breed Type etc. and be able to articulate this in a natural, experienced way and not just learned off the page and chanted out by rote. You will need to be able to apply your knowledge to the animals which have been kindly provided for the practical Assessment. If you are successful at Practical Assessment, you will then be expected to 'Probation' the following year - over ?one or ?two seasons with a set number of Senior Judges. You will be expected to travel outwith your area for this. And, for example, for the BSHA, you will not have a choice of whom you go with, you are given the Show and the Senior judge and you make every effort to attend. For many Societies, the NPS being one, it is MANDATORY that you will Steward for the Society for whom you are training. Knowledge and correct application of the relevant Rule Book is paramount. Once accepted (if accepted) you will be placed on a "B" Panel (with the NPS) - not in a position to Judge HOYS / RIHS qualifiers until, over time, you are elevated to the "A" Panel / gained your "STAR" with the BSPS etc. So, it's utterly not a pushover' to have achieved the knowledge and the credentials to stand in the middle of the ring and adjudicate over other's animals. Still keen? Yes definitely! Will get talking to people and get some help!
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Post by comanchediva on Jul 6, 2015 20:35:56 GMT
I've not done the Fell breed show for the last few years but it used to be all ponies were measured before collecting your number unless you had a height certificate. To be fair, HOYS ponies have to provide a height certificate with their entries so there is probably less need to measure those ponies than the others doing only ridden classes. I was quoting from this year's schedule which I had in front of me as I was trying to work out which classes to enter! Have to admit I'm a bit confused by it so could have read it wrong.
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Post by Guestless on Jul 6, 2015 20:59:22 GMT
I've not done the Fell breed show for the last few years but it used to be all ponies were measured before collecting your number unless you had a height certificate. To be fair, HOYS ponies have to provide a height certificate with their entries so there is probably less need to measure those ponies than the others doing only ridden classes. I was quoting from this year's schedule which I had in front of me as I was trying to work out which classes to enter! Have to admit I'm a bit confused by it so could have read it wrong. No, that's the way I read it too - just the two inhand classes to be measured. I agree with you but how many people get them measured under by the vet accompanied by a nice little back hander? Some of them are HUGE at hoys- so I think they should all be measured before getting the back number. Why do judges want to waste time judging over height animals that aren't true to type? It should be done up front not once the pony gets the ticket! I can't think of any huge Fells at HOYS over the past few years - in fact I have thought judges have gone back to looking at the (IMO) more true to type smaller Fell ponies more recently. I just need the Scottish judges to recognise a grey Fell and we're sorted lol!
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jul 7, 2015 7:20:59 GMT
I agree with you but how many people get them measured under by the vet accompanied by a nice little back hander? Some of them are HUGE at hoys- so I think they should all be measured before getting the back number. Why do judges want to waste time judging over height animals that aren't true to type? It should be done up front not once the pony gets the ticket! It would be fair to say that the majority of judges DON'T wish to 'waste time' (quote) judging 'overheight' (quote) animals. Until public perception is altered to accept that it is not necessary to purchase an 'up-to-height' animal then people will continue to purchase them. "Waste time"? Judging, you judge what is put in front of you. For as many hours as it takes. Everyone has paid their entry money and everyone is entitled to the same amount of 'time'. What judges should have the courage to do, is place down the line, those which are 'off type' for any Breed /Type - and for whatever reason (ie: too tall, light of bone, incorrect feather, incorrect markings etc.) as well as those with conformational defects. It is regularly conveniently forgotten by the showing public that the "Conformation" section covers "Type" too. It is also regularly forgotten that the 'way of going' section (commonly known as 'ride') should encompass the 'way of going within (Breed) type'. Whatever type, be it, for example, a Native Breed pony of whichever breed, a Lead rein v a First Ridden Show Pony . . . or a Show Hack v a Riding Horse. The 'composite' Show animal should not be highly rewarded just because it has delivered a 'foot-perfect' (boring!) performance.
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Post by volatis on Jul 7, 2015 12:15:04 GMT
No animals can compete at HOYS without a valid height certificate. M&Ms are often measured after they qualify and so their height certificates are really current
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Post by honeypot on Jul 7, 2015 16:21:40 GMT
I have worked with a few judges in the ring, most have been lovely, some did not know as much as they thought they did and some down right rude, who I have advised the show secretary never to have again. I can think of nowhere in life where you are allowed as an adult to be as rude and thoughtless to a child as some of them are, or even an adult, and no one pass comment or complain, if they where in paid employment they would probably lose their job. I can think of no sport that bias is accepted, that a pony wins because the judge likes the 'type', no matter if there is a pony of a different type that is better but still conforms to the breed standard. It would be perhaps a good idea if every judge filled out their breed or types likes and dislikes so everyone had the same level of knowledge before they started paying out their entry fees instead of the little black book that everyone is supposed to keep, which must take hundreds of pounds before you actually know which judge likes your type. How is anyone supposed to take any of this seriously?
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justliloldme
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Post by justliloldme on Jul 7, 2015 16:33:22 GMT
There are judges on far more panels than I am on that didnt know what breed the "Grey Fell" was and 2 have asked me In the past what he was ...... begs the question about some judges knowledge of breeds and type, I would happily play guess the breed from a silohette and sit a written exam, but havent the time to judge/ probation to go further onto more panels particularly being unable to drive, but am shocked as BOTH judges on MUCH more "prestigious" panels than myself, doesnt mean they know nessecarily more than us lesser mortals Having stewarded and probationed a little with some of the best, ive learnt alot but also study alot behind closed doors.
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Post by umuppet on Jul 7, 2015 20:08:52 GMT
There are judges on far more panels than I am on that didnt know what breed the "Grey Fell" was and 2 have asked me In the past what he was ...... begs the question about some judges knowledge of breeds and type, I would happily play guess the breed from a silohette and sit a written exam, but havent the time to judge/ probation to go further onto more panels particularly being unable to drive, but am shocked as BOTH judges on MUCH more "prestigious" panels than myself, doesnt mean they know nessecarily more than us lesser mortals Having stewarded and probationed a little with some of the best, ive learnt alot but also study alot behind closed doors. Well said! You nailed it on the head! M&M panel judges should have more knowledge on the different breeds and should understand each one's characteristics abit more before signing up to these big panels. I was totally shocked at a recent show when a Welsh panel judge who was also judging the open M&M classes asked what breed every animal forward was... (including Welsh and shetlands). Also asking one competitor 3 times what breed her pony was in the Championship. Surly if you're going to judge an affilated M&M open class, you should know your basic breeds and breed standards for each type. I have also stewarded at numerous larger level shows where I have been shocked on the judges knowledge of other breeds, other than the breed panel they are currently on. Don't get me wrong, I love my natives and am a keen follower of all the breeds. But before I put my name forward for a judging panel, I would be wise in gaining more knowledge on the breeds i'm not to sure on... Sorry to go slightly off topic.
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Post by follower on Jul 8, 2015 5:43:54 GMT
It is a bit more complex than this. Often a pony is not true to type and you are left wondering is it a New Forest or a bay Connemara or even a light cob ! If it is a good type it is easy but that is so often not the case.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jul 8, 2015 6:30:25 GMT
Agreed follower. And I think it does look better if the judge then asks every competitor the breed rather than just the one they're not sure about. Of course if the class is local level and for non-registered ponies the judge is stuffed anyway - most likely the owners don't know either!
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Post by wouldyourather on Jul 8, 2015 7:38:01 GMT
It is a bit more complex than this. Often a pony is not true to type and you are left wondering is it a New Forest or a bay Connemara or even a light cob ! If it is a good type it is easy but that is so often not the case. I would much rather the judge asked than judge a pony as something else entirely. I wouldn't be offended if a judge asked me for this reason!
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jul 8, 2015 11:02:14 GMT
It is a bit more complex than this. Often a pony is not true to type and you are left wondering is it a New Forest or a bay Connemara or even a light cob ! If it is a good type it is easy but that is so often not the case. I would much rather the judge asked than judge a pony as something else entirely. I wouldn't be offended if a judge asked me for this reason! I agree. My late, very knowledgeable Mother used to describe these somewhat off-type animals as 'what-is-its'. All Breed representatives should be so typey as to instantly 'tell' you what it is. Again in my Mother's words, the animal should have a metaphorical flag on it's head! The other week someone was describing their animal to me (I hadn't seen it) and said "it's a real M&M". When I did get to see it, it was most certainly a 'what-is-it'. But, it's kind, genuine and they love it. Not every animal needs to be a potential show-ring winner to make someone happy.
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Post by abigail on Jul 8, 2015 11:34:22 GMT
I would much rather the judge asked than judge a pony as something else entirely. I wouldn't be offended if a judge asked me for this reason! I agree. My late, very knowledgeable Mother used to describe these somewhat off-type animals as 'what-is-its'. All Breed representatives should be so typey as to instantly 'tell' you what it is. Again in my Mother's words, the animal should have a metaphorical flag on it's head! The other week someone was describing their animal to me (I hadn't seen it) and said "it's a real M&M". When I did get to see it, it was most certainly a 'what-is-it'. But, it's kind, genuine and they love it. Not every animal needs to be a potential show-ring winner to make someone happy. I do like that 'what is it ' term , and I think there are a lot out there ! But as you say not everyone wants a show ring winner , just something that makes them happy ! To me in the M&M classes 'type' is one of the most important factors ! I've had a lot of comments about my nf that he is very typey , yet there are so many types, so I guess it's down to the judges choice at the end of the day ! You may go to one show and be last , go to another and be top ! There's always another show with different judges
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sarahp
Happy to help
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Post by sarahp on Jul 8, 2015 12:07:34 GMT
Starting at the other end, so to speak, as a breeder I would try to target each pony to the right job for it, and an untypey one would not be aimed at a breed ridden class anyway. They all have their good and bad points, and all have a place in life. Showing isn't everything!
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