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Post by maxandpaddy on Jan 15, 2016 14:17:57 GMT
But what was posted is a child would be judged as per her picture on her pony! I’ve seen varying shapes and sizes on pony’s and I just look for happy faces of the children and young people (as long as there is no welfare issues). So what if they don’t look picture perfect and are "to light or to heavy" for the show ring etiquette! As long as the pony is comfortable and puts on a good show, jumps well and the rider has style! I do not think anyone is judge bashing but I feel your comment re judging pony’s/horses on the size of their riders: "however if the animal was suitable for its rider, i.e. not over or under-horsed I would take that into account" would quite rightly have responses. Being over horsed or under horse in my view is not an issue its about schooling and performance. At 5"2 on my 17"hh I look "over horsed" (pea on a drum) but can I assure you that I am not, he's just a big boy and I am small we are perfectly in tune and totally in love! "What I do hate to see is a tiny jockey being over-mounted and dislike seeing little under-age jockeys on being on ponies too big for them and being out of class age wise." I can also assure you that I am not over mounted and have the ability and skill to ride Humphrey and he has the schooling to respond to me at a heartbeat. I guess if you put such comments on the internet you should expect to get a reaction. Not logged on, I was once in your shoes but with therapy and help have got through my "troubles" as Mum used to call it! I now quite happily ride whatever I want in the show ring and if a judge judges me for my size, shame on them, and if I present in front of them again, then shame on me! Good luck on your journey I hope you resolve your demons and can live at peace with yourself body image soon! xx :-) Adults make a choice as to what they ride, sadly children quite often dont. Theres nothing worse than seeing a child on a pony/horse who is obviously over mounted even if they win and look "pretty" together.....I remember from one show last year witnessing a child being carted around a main arena after the lap of honour, as I'm sure others did too. Luckily she sat it out and well done her for doing that, but it was awful to watch and pretty darn scary Plus being over-mounted isnt necessarily about the size of the horse/pony but often about the quality of the jockey on top, a judge has to take everything into account gillwales as usual you talk sense
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Post by maxandpaddy on Jan 15, 2016 19:38:42 GMT
hi, As I've broken my New Year's resolution, I wonder if there are any other showing enthusiasts in the same position as myself. Disordered eating is something that has always been common in sports such as gymnastics and ballet, but does showing have the potential to follow in their footsteps. This is my 18th year suffering from disordered eating. Although the sole cause was not just horse showing, it was the starting point. There was always such as focus on staying slim, squeezing in into jackets/gloves/jods. I even remember getting a jacket fitted at 14 and being told to lose weight as it would "lay better" when being measured (I was underweight). I was often chosen to ride for people as I "looked nice on a show pony" I still hear it often- producers telling jockeys/stable jockeys to lose weight, judges saying heavy kids "spoil the overall image", people advertising for jockeys "under 7 stone". Just wanted to hear your thoughts- is this what we are putting children through? Apologies if this is a bit controversial/offends anyone, I was just curious. I've been mulling what the OP said and I think she does have a valid point. Sadly in a sport where age, size and shape shouldn't matter and to be fair in many disciplines doesn't.... with showing it is a factor. Young children with make up on, children coming out of their age class on ponies too small for them with stirrups hoy'ked up so short their feet must lose the will to live, jackets so tight and small they have to sit up straight or they CANT BREATHE, miserable looking tots in a line up of 30, hair puffed and premed into tight neat bunches with big red bows...its almost become a horse version of a Pageant Queen contest!! My eldest daughter started off her competitive ridden career with show ponies quite by accident after being asked to ride for an owner, then we bought her her own simply because it was what she knew and wanted to do. She still rides for others in ridden classes (her choice now not mine) but I ended up hating it even though I still love looking at the ponies. I'l be d**ned if my youngest daughter ever does it, she will hopefully one day have a Thelwell type of pony, go out have fun and take none of it too seriously THEN AND ONLY THEN decide if she wants to compete So yes I agree it could be a factor, it has to effect some children and their self image later in life, but until this Pageant Queen mentality in showing stops or parents move away from it entirely it'l continue.....so sad!!
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Post by weezewoo on Jan 15, 2016 21:22:50 GMT
I call it toddlers and tiara's on ponies.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jan 16, 2016 4:35:33 GMT
I am probably going to be shot down here - however, showing to be fair is the equivalent of the equine beauty pageant and the whole picture should be right. A tiny jockey riding a pony/horse that is clearly too big, or vice versa, does not present the correct picture. If you wish the animal to be purely judged on conformation rather than the whole picture take up in hand showing. No-one has the right to make a child or an adult feel uncomfortable about their weight (and OP this is most certainly NOT a dig at you, but an observation on other comments, particularly in light of the reaction to Gill Wales comments) - but, if you don't want to be judged on looks, perhaps showing is not the correct equine sport for you.
Going back to the OP question, you pose the question of does showing have the potential to go the way of other sports such as gymnastics and ballet, I would say probably yes - but I believe it is probably more (in the equine world) due to the continued obsession to dig, dig, dig, on social media where a judge has in the opinion of the masses not got the correct result. I don't know enough about ballet and gymnastics to know whether or not this happens there too.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 16, 2016 8:19:53 GMT
Yes, I'll do some shooting down for once, no offence intended, just factual correction. Ridden showing is so much NOT an equine beauty pageant, but is a judgment of "fit for purpose" of the animal both in conformation and performance, with the addition of being correct for the defined class. Conformation is about soundness, health and the mechanical ability to give a good ride, whereas the performance under saddle demonstrates that ride.
If you were to translate that into human terms, what would you judge the contestants on - their ability as sexual partners, shopping, cooking and cleaning and/or going out to work for a huge salary perhaps? No, we just look at them and choose the one we like the look of most.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jan 16, 2016 8:59:27 GMT
Yes, I'll do some shooting down for once, no offence intended, just factual correction. Ridden showing is so much NOT an equine beauty pageant, but is a judgment of "fit for purpose" of the animal both in conformation and performance, with the addition of being correct for the defined class. Conformation is about soundness, health and the mechanical ability to give a good ride, whereas the performance under saddle demonstrates that ride. If you were to translate that into human terms, what would you judge the contestants on - their ability as sexual partners, shopping, cooking and cleaning and/or going out to work for a huge salary perhaps? No, we just look at them and choose the one we like the look of most. I totally agree that there is much more to showing as the animal should be fit for purpose etc etc - however - you judge what is in front of you - if you have two animals - correctly turned out, equal stature, well schooled - you are going to go for the one you like best - no-one has the right to put someone down - however, as a parent we have a duty to our kids to buy the correct pony for the job. If you don't want to be judged on how you look in the show ring, don't go there - there is nothing better than a well schooled animal, with a correctly turned out rider performing in the ring - but it is still a question of what you as the judge likes best, some judges do it better than others. I still maintain that if you don't want to be judged like that - you are in the wrong sport! Regardless of what you are showing, the animal must look fit for purpose, have good locomotion, type etc but also be pleasing to the eye!
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 16, 2016 9:27:10 GMT
Yes of course judges can only judge what is in front of them in each particular class, but in the event of a tie on what do you base the "one you like best"? It should be on serious grounds, not just the prettiest. It's another debate too as to what constitutes a tie, of course all judges have their own scales of likes and dislikes and no two combinations are identical.
Parts of the rest of your post I agree with - duty to buy the right pony for the job it must do, if you don't like showing, don't do it - but in no way should the child's looks come into it.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jan 16, 2016 9:45:51 GMT
I agree with you - BUT the overall look of the combination should still look correct, - the conformation of the child for want of a better description shouldn't come into it. However, if you are putting forward your animal and your child into a contest for the best combination in the ring in that judges eyes - you are putting them forward to be judged as that - it is the job of the person judging to get the correct result in their opinion, either by the marks system/breed standard etc etc. In the event of a tie it is up to that judge to decide what is the most important to them. To some that may be manners, others conformation, others overall picture, but again it is still asking someone for their opinion of your animal and your child. Like I say, some judges do it better than others! I think we need to agree to disagree on this one Sarah LOL
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 16, 2016 10:39:39 GMT
Yes we will. For me it's not the combination that's being judged but the pony. You've given me another thought - does it anywhere in the marks/specifications for judging mention the rider?
The world moves on, I don't have to agree with it though. I never showed as a child, and my daughter did very little and always preferred "doing" but as I breed I did a bit of flat showing (and dressage, daughter jumped her) with my D mare of the time as well as IH showing the youngsters and what was important then was the quality of the ride. If I had riding grandchildren now I'd make sure to steer them away from "tots in tiaras" in favour of fun stuff, be it hacking, hunting, jumping, games or polo.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jan 16, 2016 11:08:04 GMT
Ha, Sarah, may we continue this discussion privately - I think we've hijacked a thread - but you've given me food for thought too LOL. Whilst I agree with you it is the animal which is being judged - if you do not take into account the jockey for the overall picture, why bother having rules for correct turnout of rider?
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 16, 2016 15:48:51 GMT
Happily if you prefer, but the thread did start anyway with the question of passing judgement on jockeys rather than ponies so I wouldn't consider it hijacked.
There are turnout rules too for the performance discplines where the rider is not taken into account, excepting the rider mark in dressage which is for the rider's performance rather then appearance and a relatively small percentage.
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Post by Guestless on Jan 16, 2016 16:42:56 GMT
It's hard to tell from the original post if it was the poster's mother or someone making her jacket that commented the jacket would sit better if she lost weight. I have to say though that anyone who tells an underweight 14 year old they need to lose weight for the sake of a better chance at a red rosette needs their head examined! I often think we need to get showing into perspective - I love it - but it is about one or two people's opinions on a day and it doesn't really matter a jot! It is far more important for a parent to look after their child's mental health and help them to grow into a balanced human being with compassion and aspirations.
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Post by maxandpaddy on Jan 16, 2016 17:48:44 GMT
Nicely put Guestless
Like I said I love looking at the horses/ponies but for children who compete I sometimes wonder for whose benefit they are doing it. The tots quite often look so bored and miserable, some older children only seem interested in a win and nothing less is acceptable we've all seen strops and tantrums because they ONLY came second!
I'm not having a dig at judges, just the mentality behind a lot of showing, especially the show pony class, and as the OP alluded to im not sure it's always to the child's benefit
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jan 16, 2016 18:03:40 GMT
I am appalled that any adult says to any child regardless of what they are competing in that they need to lose weight in order to compete, I am also even more appalled when it gets fired at teenagers who are in many ways even more vulnerable. But I have to say that I have never heard a judge say that to any child - I can't even remember an aside comment being made to me as I steward, but I am not naive enough to think that it couldn't happen. I think Guestless you are absolutely right - showing does need brought into perspective for a lot of people.
I am still intrigued Sarah as to how else you judge a class without actually taking personal preference into account? Even with the mark system, personal preference will creep in. As Gill spoke about before, she would forgive slightly lighter of bone if it was up to doing its job of taking its jockey hunting - from that comment again I am assuming something that is mannerly and covers the ground well. From her comments I would assume (rightly or wrongly LOL) that she prefers a more substantial animal, but she would judge combination as being fit for purpose with that particular rider on board.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 16, 2016 18:39:32 GMT
Well awarding marks is a quality judgment anyway, it's personal preference on purely aesthetic grounds of the combination as opposed to weighing up the pluses and minuses of each pony that I object to.
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Post by flee on Jan 16, 2016 23:40:42 GMT
Okay , here goes . I am merely reporting an incident and not offering opinion - make what you will of this . Some years ago I was watching a dressage rider , at the time competing at Advanced and aiming for the top , having a lesson with a hugely successful (foreign) world class rider/ coach .At the end of the session the trainer told the rider that her horse was going really well , was working along the correct lines and that they were both showing enormous promise .The rider was given advice and targets to further their progress as one would expect after a session with such a renowned and experienced trainer. The trainer then said , in a matter of fact , but nice , way that the rider should lose some weight . The rider , who was in her late twenties ( and a brilliant rider I might add ) was rather taken aback and responded by informing the trainer that she might not be the slimmest person but that she ran , swam , went to the gym and did regular work outs . The trainer said that she did not doubt this and was not questioning the riders fitness in anyway , but was simply pointing out that the rider would present a more beautiful overall picture if she lost some weight . The rider was getting a bit peed off and defensive by now and retorted that if her horse was going so well , and that she was riding so brilliantly , as the trainer had just assured her , then what was the problem ? The trainer shrugged and said "To be the best you must be dedicated to achieving perfection in every tiny detail . Some details are harder to perfect than others but this is surely one detail of which you are in control . Why would you work so hard at everything else but neglect this ?" And remember - this was DRESSAGE .
NB I compete in both dressage and showing .I am not thin .
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 17, 2016 7:40:41 GMT
Neither am I, and did both too, as well as lots of dressage writing and watching top class training. I have never had said to me, or seen at any other time or on any mark sheets any remark on the rider's weight. It is of course true that to do top class dressage (as opposed to showing, which does not require advanced riding) the rider's conformation does matter - most top class dressage riders are tall and leggy rather than short with long backs as I am. It is also true that being overweight does constrict the ease of use of joints but any rider aspiring to improve their dressage should be aware of their own body and what it can and can't do, in the same way as gymnasts and ballet dancers need to be.
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Post by Really! @!@ on Jan 20, 2016 23:07:44 GMT
Well what an educated answer Gill Wales. Not everyone will agree but dont try and be little people with the derogatory words you use as a personal insult that could make you look a little silly ! !!
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Post by Trainer on Feb 3, 2016 18:50:55 GMT
If Judges do comment about children's should be ashamed of themselves. Their job is judge the pony's way of going and not the "Cute factor". There is a serious issue now in showing which works against tall children who are forced to ride against those older than them rather than within their peer group. Junior M&M HOYS classes need to be opened up to all sizes of pony but with age restrictions. Rider classes with an age structure such a those run by the BSPS need to be encouraged and introduced at HOYS to give them credibility and promote the education of our future show jockeys. The benefits to showing would be enormous.
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Post by mcnaughty on Feb 4, 2016 13:38:44 GMT
Yes we will. For me it's not the combination that's being judged but the pony. You've given me another thought - does it anywhere in the marks/specifications for judging mention the rider? The world moves on, I don't have to agree with it though. I never showed as a child, and my daughter did very little and always preferred "doing" but as I breed I did a bit of flat showing (and dressage, daughter jumped her) with my D mare of the time as well as IH showing the youngsters and what was important then was the quality of the ride. If I had riding grandchildren now I'd make sure to steer them away from "tots in tiaras" in favour of fun stuff, be it hacking, hunting, jumping, games or polo. But it is possible to do all of the above quite happily. I have however this year had to put an end to PC as I have found the mothers to be quite frankly a disgrace to womankind! Daughter and I only got into the showing game because there was nothing else competitive that she could do at 4 years old other than a bit of fun leadrein. We then did it a bit more seriously but they also did 4 PC camps together too. We have an M&M so our 'showing' is a little more diverse than show ponies I suppose as she does in hand, FR, junior ridden, some open classes and WH!!! As for the debate which seems to be around pretty, skinny kids on ponies. That is so seriously wrong in all areas! My goodness, so if a child had a facial port stain mark or glasses but rode like a dream, the judge if push came to shove would go for the prettier picture? I do not believe that for a second and shame on any judge whose mind it even crossed!
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Post by timeforabrew on Feb 8, 2016 18:20:18 GMT
I stumbled on this thread after seeing a link on Facebook for the upcoming Showing Register Debate, which I see will include a discussion about rider weight. I came on here to see if anyone was talking about it.
When I was 17 and riding a Section B in a Novice M+M class, a judge said to me (and I remember it clear as day) "You've got a beautiful pony but he'd look much better with a smaller rider. And I don't mean height wise." At the time I shrugged it off, but that comment stayed with me. I gave up showing for a few years, but when I came back into it aged 21 I was haunted by that judge's comment. I was in a healthy BMI range, but determined never to give a judge reason to say something like that again and decided to lose weight for the upcoming season. Between January - May I lost a significant amount of weight and became extremely poorly, eventually being diagnosed with anorexia. I so vividly remember cycling away for hours through the night on my exercise bike with a cutout from the Horse and Hound pinned next to me as 'inspiration'. I became so weak that I had to give up riding completely (and have, sadly, never returned to it), and I was diagnosed with osteopenia aged 22 as the starvation harmed my bones. I am now several years down the line and although I'm doing much better, I'm by no means better. One of my greatest fears is that I will be plagued by this terrible disorder forever, although I hope full recovery is possible.
What started as a diet quickly spiralled, and far from helping me look better in the showring, the weight I lost ultimately meant I had to give up showing and ponies, something which breaks my heart every single day.
If there is a welfare issue then that should be tactfully dealt with. But judges should realise that their one comment could, potentially, ruin someone's life (especially when we're dealing with a 'vulnerable' group of young girls and teenagers) - the risk of what happened to me happening to someone else is small, but it is real, and I honestly wouldn't wish what myself and my family went through on anyone.
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Post by catkin on Feb 8, 2016 18:37:09 GMT
Poor you timeforabrew. I too have heard untoward remarks that even if they are thought (probaby wrongly) should not be spoken. Truly cruel.
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Post by Guestless on Feb 18, 2016 21:57:39 GMT
I stumbled on this thread after seeing a link on Facebook for the upcoming Showing Register Debate, which I see will include a discussion about rider weight. I came on here to see if anyone was talking about it. Thank you for sharing your experience timeforabrew. I hope your health continues to improve and you are not left with lasting effects. Perhaps show societies' seminars should include a presentation from someone like yourself to highlight the implications of thoughtless comments made to vulnerable young people.
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Post by timeforabrew on Feb 20, 2016 22:25:59 GMT
Honestly Guestless, if sharing my story could help save one person from going through what I did I'd do it in a heartbeat. I often think that judges and instructors and other people working with young people in this industry should receive even just a little education about eating disorders to make sure they don't (inadvertently) say something damaging (and equally to heighten awareness so that those who are affected can be spotted quickly and helped, even if the initial cause wasn't showing or riding itself).
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Post by scarileo on Feb 21, 2016 19:54:03 GMT
I am 16, about 5'1, and I ride a 125cm welsh B pony in m&m whp classes. I am not the skinniest of riders and I sometimes feel very big on my very little pony, especially as she's at the lower end of the 133cm class. Luckily, no-one has mentioned my size on the pony (yet) but, as a sensitive soul, I cannot imagine how affected I would be if a judge told me that I shouldn't be riding my pony. The current market is a dangerous place for little and whizzy ponies, especially those who need a competent and very patient rider like mine! As I am not causing a welfare issue, rather just 'spoiling the picture', I honestly don't see why anyone should 'have a crack' at potentially vulnerable riders by essentially telling them to stop riding their pony. Welfare issues exempt, we must be mindful that some little ponies are 155cm in a 125cm body.
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Post by Kg not logged in on Feb 23, 2016 9:42:52 GMT
To the OP, I'm sorry you have been through this, eating disorders are a difficult and painful problem, I had a friend who was bulimic.
I don't think the clothes situation helps. My daughter is nine but is almost as tall as me, has bigger feet and head than me. I've gone through a jacket a year and only ever bought one that wasn't made to measure. She's no skinny minny but not overweight, just solid, always has been, that's how she is. Buying jods is a nightmare as they are almost spray on from many showing outlets, shirts the same. I remember many judges commenting on her being 'tall for five' when she was on lead rein or questioning why she wasn't doing first ridden. She's in 13-14 year old clothing now, I couldn't put her in a first ridden class as many judges would assume she's older and she's nervous. I'm quite happy for her to pootle around at home enjoying her ponies rather than being subjected to the pressures of ridden showing, I'm as competitive as the next person and like winning (who doesn't?!!) but I'd rather my child have lots of fun and enjoy her ponies. I do wish judges would ask how old children are than just 'assuming', it would help the children's confidence and maybe the judges might realise the tiny cute one with bunches is actually 12 and the tall, leggy one is 9!! There's just so much pressure on kids these days, striving for perfection on every level, school work, dancing classes etc. There is little wonder that problems occur.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Feb 23, 2016 10:17:11 GMT
Has she tried Pony Club instead of showing? Branches do vary, but normally work to the ability of the child rather than age.
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Post by catkin on Feb 23, 2016 11:04:17 GMT
KG - there are companies that make (at very little extra cost) made to measure jods. Showing Selection is one. I absolutely feel your pain and have seen this situation first hand. People can be very harsh and judgemental and whilst I do believe that with top flight showing, the picture is important, we all need to remember we are judging animals not riders and that encouraging children is vital. I would definitely suggest PC as a good outlet for your child. Also, consider going down the performance route if you do want to do showing, so WHP etc. The actual performance of the animal becomes central to the judging with so many of the points allocated in this way. I also agree about the pressure on children. What my children experience is totally different to my own childhood. I would also add, that pony power is key to your child's happiness, particularly if she is nervous. You need to find a ride that fulfils her ambitions, whatever they might be, so that she can build on this confidence. She is so very young!
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Post by Not Logged In on Mar 20, 2016 14:39:41 GMT
Wow
Have returned to this to see once again horse gossipers have taken something and completely gone off topic and turned it into an argument.
This conversation just proves my original point that the environment showing creates can be a starting point for an eating disorder.
Somebody actually said above that they wouldn't starve themselves to fit on a pony, and thinks it's silly to do so. I would like to clarify, that eating disorders make you see the irrational, and what seems silly to someone not suffering seems like a way of survival to another.
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