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Post by the showing register on Jan 13, 2016 10:59:38 GMT
PRESS RELEASE PLEASE SHARE
The Showing Register is organizing a free to attend open debate on the Future of Showing on Sunday 21st February at Stoneleigh Park in the Stareton Hall from 2pm to 5pm. A panel of showing experts will answer questions and we will be taking comments from the audience. We will have some hot topics to discuss and anyone can send in a question to gailchapmantsr@yahoo.com or bring them along on the day. We are particularly interested in questions about the costs and restrictions of memberships to compete in RI /HOYS Qualifying classes, height limits of small hunters and intermediates, weight limits on riders of small ponies, perception and ethics of judging, Coloured horse and pony exhibitors views on their classes and membership choices, use of social media and anything else you feel strongly about.
This debate is outside the remit of any society and you may express your views with confidence.
Confirmed panel members
Mr Sandy Anderson and Miss Emma Wardell ( Grandstand Media HOYS) Mr Craig Elenor ( Professional producer in hand and ridden) Miss Lizzie Briant ( Mountain and Moorland Judge and Exhibitor) Mrs Carolle Lee Jones ( High Horse Showing Society) Mrs Tricia Johnson ( Horse and Hound correspondent and freelance journalist) Mr Rory Gilsenan ( Trainer, WH specialist, judge) Mr Jonothan Fry ( Amateur exhibitor) Mr Allan Robertson ( Judge on all panels)
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Post by kateanne0 on Jan 13, 2016 14:27:30 GMT
Hi, I won't be able to make the venue but I do have a question to be raised about small hunters and the registration of these to 2 societies SHB(GB)for RI qualifiers & BSHA for HOYS qualifiers. Obviously having to pay membership twice - why can't we just join the one society for both qualifiers?
I appreciate that SHB(GB) are the governing body of Hunters (this is what I was told when I telephoned with a query on this years full membership payment - so stand to be corrected if I misunderstood).
If HOYS arbitrarily gave the HOYS qualifiers to another society (BSHA) then HOYS are making membership expensive for those hunter owners that want to do RI & HOYS qualifiers! Could this be addressed and an arrangement be made via the 2 societies and/or HOYS that Hunter owners could just join one society?
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Jan 13, 2016 15:54:16 GMT
Hi, I won't be able to make the venue but I do have a question to be raised about small hunters and the registration of these to 2 societies SHB(GB)for RI qualifiers & BSHA for HOYS qualifiers. Obviously having to pay membership twice - why can't we just join the one society for both qualifiers? I appreciate that SHB(GB) are the governing body of Hunters (this is what I was told when I telephoned with a query on this years full membership payment - so stand to be corrected if I misunderstood). If HOYS arbitrarily gave the HOYS qualifiers to another society (BSHA) then HOYS are making membership expensive for those hunter owners that want to do RI & HOYS qualifiers! Could this be addressed and an arrangement be made via the 2 societies and/or HOYS that Hunter owners could just join one society? Well SHBGB used to be the governing body for both till certain people got on there high horse about the safety hat rule complained to grandstand meadia who then gave them to BSHA so people could wear Hunting Caps if they so wished. Coloureds have to join 2 socities to do RIHS and HOYS. Id like the membership for hoys to become the same as ponies for horses where you can be a member of various societies to qualify Im more curious as to why the memberhsip has gone up this year
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Post by kateanne0 on Jan 13, 2016 19:40:04 GMT
I was told that membership had gone up this year because the society can't afford the drop in revenue this year(not said in those exact words but that's the gist of it). Last year was our first year in horses and the membership for SHB(GB) was £35 plus the horse registration plus the BHSA costs.
I think there was a reduced membership with BHSA last year as well but it doesn't look like they have given a reduction again this year, however, members from 15-18 years old have a reduced membership paying £40 instead of £50.
I understand that if competitors only want to do HOYS qualifiers then they only need to join BHSA?
To do both qualifiers it will cost the competitor £85 for SHB(GB) and for BHSA £90 (18 and under) or £100 (these costs includes a £15 levy for HOYS registration), plus a £2 online charge for paying by debit or credit card - but if we only had to join one society we could save upwards of £85 (this is registering just one horse), so, effectively, competitors have been penalised by Grandstand Media (HOYS) because of a dispute over hats!! Surely, this issue could have been resolved via discussion or mediation?
And, FOR SHB(GB) add another £5 to the £50 membership fee if you don't want to pay by direct debit!
I agree with 'thatboythatgirl' there should be a system in place for horse classes whereby we can join just one of the societies to be able to do both RI and HOYS qualifiers.
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Jan 13, 2016 20:30:11 GMT
HOYS Hunter registration is only £30 with BSHA the additional 15 is only applicable to RH/hacks/cobs.
I'm not sure what a hunter memberahip entails for £30 compared to an adult member at £50
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Post by the showing register on Jan 13, 2016 20:45:52 GMT
Thanks for this it will definately go forward as a question we will be inviting representatives of the societies and RI to be present to put their view if they wish plus of course we already have HOYS represented.
And we hope for a good turnout on the day to represent exhibitors and their views. An online survey will be available after the event.
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Post by owston on Jan 13, 2016 21:23:54 GMT
What a fantastic idea TSR just wish I could make it. I think this is what the showing world needs........just hope there will be some sort of notes for people to read afterwards for those of us who can't make it.
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Post by the showing register on Jan 14, 2016 7:17:17 GMT
Yes indeed and please take part in the survey we need your input !
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Post by gillwales on Jan 14, 2016 7:29:02 GMT
I wont be able to make it either, however I do have concerns re welfare. Tack: the incorrectly fitted nosebands , I watched the hacks and pba's at the RHIS 2 years ago and the fashion is for flat caverson nosebands which are adjusted too tightly, you should be able to fit a man's finger between the noseband and horse. 2, the use of wilkies has a bradoon; this practice MUST be banned, it is totally illogical, and downright cruel. For those of you that do not understand the correct use of a bradoon, it is there to elevate the horse's head, a wilkie does the oposite... that combined with an overtight noseband... what are competitors doing to their poor animals? It does answer the fact that everyone of the entries in the PBA class ( bar 2) I watched were overbent and behind the bit. Guidence shold be given to judges and it MUST be made clear that this is an unacceptable way of going and at least 5 marks should be deducted. This is far worse that a wrong lead in canter which everyone gets worked up about, unless of course it is down to the fact that the horse is unbalanced, usually it is down to pilot error rather than evassion or a poor way of going on the part of the horse.
I hope the conference is a success and is well supported, miles and house move prevent me from attending, but I do hope you are able to consider the above.
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Jan 14, 2016 10:05:39 GMT
Although in my young days it had to be TWO fingers between cavesson and nose rather than one! Times change but the principle remains the same.
I so agree re wilikies.
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Post by the showing register on Jan 14, 2016 10:38:21 GMT
Thank you Gill we will include some of these points
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Post by sjw87 on Jan 14, 2016 10:51:12 GMT
I would like to attend but it depends on being able to get cover on the yard as I wouldn't be back in time for evening stables.
My question is with regards to rider age limits and also ties in with another thread on here atm:
Are rider age restrictions a good idea?
In recent years, coloureds and m&m's have significantly increased in popularity. My personal belief for this that the open classes have had no rider age limits so equines can be chosen for their suitability rather than having to get a certain size or sell on due to the rider's age.
As other pony classes seem to be becoming less supported, is opening up rider age limits worth considering? Many hunter ponies are more than happy carrying a small adult.
Of course the rider must still be a suitable size and weight for their mount and this leads to the second part of my question. How is this decided? There is talk going round of weight limits for small breeds but two ponies of the same size may have different capabilities depending on their build and age. Rider's weights can fluctuate so they may be in an out of a class limit from show to show. In classes with age limits, children may be big or small for their age. A rider being deemed too heavy is a very subjective decision - people have very different opinions on what weight horses can actually carry. So long as a riders height not weight are not proving detrimental to the horse, should they be penalised as the overall picture is not as pleasing to the eye?
Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards
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Post by the showing register on Jan 14, 2016 11:19:47 GMT
Thank you SJW I hope you can attend as there will be opportunity to speak from the floor I will add your comments in the mix. All the questions when finalized will be sent to all the societies so they can also see what concerns exhibitors.Your question is likely to be in the first half of the afternoon if that helps.
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Post by volatis on Jan 15, 2016 13:41:23 GMT
I would like to attend but it depends on being able to get cover on the yard as I wouldn't be back in time for evening stables. My question is with regards to rider age limits and also ties in with another thread on here atm: Are rider age restrictions a good idea? In recent years, coloureds and m&m's have significantly increased in popularity. My personal belief for this that the open classes have had no rider age limits so equines can be chosen for their suitability rather than having to get a certain size or sell on due to the rider's age. As other pony classes seem to be becoming less supported, is opening up rider age limits worth considering? Many hunter ponies are more than happy carrying a small adult. Of course the rider must still be a suitable size and weight for their mount and this leads to the second part of my question. How is this decided? There is talk going round of weight limits for small breeds but two ponies of the same size may have different capabilities depending on their build and age. Rider's weights can fluctuate so they may be in an out of a class limit from show to show. In classes with age limits, children may be big or small for their age. A rider being deemed too heavy is a very subjective decision - people have very different opinions on what weight horses can actually carry. So long as a riders height not weight are not proving detrimental to the horse, should they be penalised as the overall picture is not as pleasing to the eye? Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards The NPS Show pony and show hunter pony classes are open to rider's of any age for this very reason. They are also open to stallions too (with a rider age restriction for safety) so our lovely BRP stallions can get a chance to strut their stuff under saddle.
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Post by gillwales on Jan 16, 2016 5:55:47 GMT
Sorry, another issue that needs raising is over weight show animals, esp youngstock classes. This must be addressed and once again it is educating the Judges that will achieve this and nothing else. When animals start to get put down the line for being too fat then the penny will drop with the competitors. If youngsters are too fat too quickly then their joints will be ruined and this will curtail their career. Also I would like to see the lower age limit on WH/ WHP to be 5, no baby should be asked to jump, the growing plates have to finished their work, and with a rider on top this can do serious damage. People need to learn how to be patient.
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Post by the showing register on Jan 16, 2016 11:16:34 GMT
Thanks Gill that is going forward as well as weight limit for riders
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Post by sunny1 on Jan 16, 2016 11:57:50 GMT
This sounds like an excellent idea, sadly i wont be able to attend. My question would be regarding coloured stallions. We have one that passed the grading for BSPA but failed the CHAPS grading.So although he has been shown up to and at RI level he cant do HOYS classes. I had heard that maybe at some time in the future, if a stallion was graded by one or the other society, (on a showing level only, not for breeding purposes i.e one grade for showing, one to be a licenced breeding stallion) it would cross over both societies, therefore enabling them to be shown in HOYS & RI classes. Thankyou
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Post by gillwales on Jan 16, 2016 12:14:48 GMT
This sounds like an excellent idea, sadly i wont be able to attend. My question would be regarding coloured stallions. We have one that passed the grading for BSPA but failed the CHAPS grading.So although he has been shown up to and at RI level he cant do HOYS classes. I had heard that maybe at some time in the future, if a stallion was graded by one or the other society, (on a showing level only, not for breeding purposes i.e one grade for showing, one to be a licenced breeding stallion) it would cross over both societies, therefore enabling them to be shown in HOYS & RI classes. Thankyou There is no point in keeping a horse entire unless it is going to be used for breeding, it is extremely selfish to both the horses envolved and to other members of the public. I fail to understand the new fashion for keeping stallions just for showing and I sincerely hope that TSR does nothing to encourage this trend. When I was younger you had to have a licence to keep a stallion, to show that you were competant and had suitable facilities, I would like to see this re-enstated. Maybe it is time also that you have to enclose a copy of a current insurence policy when you show a stallion. I am not envolved with coloureds and never have been , however I have seen time and time again that there is a lot of conflict with these 2 societies and IMO it is time that they were merged into 1.
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Post by the showing register on Jan 16, 2016 15:15:42 GMT
Thank you sunny I have heard that there are some problems with this and also with cross over from TGCA. We have another similar question so it will come up for debate.We are sending all the questions to the societies for written comments if they cant attend. One issue with CHAPS (HOYS) and the other main society (RIHS) is that one uses marks and the other one is very much against it.
We could bring up the showing of entires if enough people ask.
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Post by gillwales on Jan 16, 2016 15:19:53 GMT
Thank you sunny I have heard that there are some problems with this and also with cross over from TGCA. We have another similar question so it will come up for debate.We are sending all the questions to the societies for written comments if they cant attend. One issue with CHAPS (HOYS) and the other main society (RIHS) is that one uses marks and the other one is very much against it. We could bring up the showing of entires if enough people ask. For what it is worth, if you cannot get them to agree I would go with the society with the method of marking that you use for the other classes and sections, it makes sense for you to have unity within your society.
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Post by ridden stallions on Jan 16, 2016 16:47:18 GMT
While i normally agree with everything that gillwales says she always makes some very good points on the subject of ridden stallions I have to disagree. We are currently showing a lovely ridden stallion who went to hoys last year who we have no intention of using . He lives exactly the same life as the other ponies here goes in the field hacks out alone and in company and behaves perfectly at shows. Whilst we do not intend to use him he is only young and I feel that it would be a shame that at some point he could be used if not with us if we every decided to sell him as his temperament and type make him an idealbbreeding stallion.
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Post by gillwales on Jan 16, 2016 16:59:39 GMT
While i normally agree with everything that gillwales says she always makes some very good points on the subject of ridden stallions I have to disagree. We are currently showing a lovely ridden stallion who went to hoys last year who we have no intention of using . He lives exactly the same life as the other ponies here goes in the field hacks out alone and in company and behaves perfectly at shows. Whilst we do not intend to use him he is only young and I feel that it would be a shame that at some point he could be used if not with us if we every decided to sell him as his temperament and type make him an idealbbreeding stallion. If the intention is to use him at the end of his showing career then it is justifiable to keep him entire, but I have seen that there is a fashion at this monent to keep entires just for showing and with no intention to use for breeding. I have ridden many stallions in company and alone, there is nothing wrong with whole boys, I have had many myself, but I had the facilities and did use them for breeding. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, however showing societies do need to consider this, it is not a good trend imo, and only the very best should be used. I like the idea of having gradings rather than the show ring decide if a horse is good enough, only those that have passed these gradings should be allowed to compete. Gradings should only pass the exceptional, with a full Vetting from an independant Vet and it's liniage shpuld be considered so it is umlikely to pass hereditary conditions, i.e. it should have no inbreeding in it's pedigree. Nobody has to agree with me, but this is what I think and the reasons why I have this opinion.
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Post by bigmama on Jan 16, 2016 17:07:03 GMT
gillwales, you have raised very valid reasons for discussion on which I would like to elaborate:
1. overbent ridden show animals extend far beyond the PBA's ... there are many, many overbent ponies in the m&m classes which many judges fail to penalise ~ it is, after all, an incorrect way of going
2. overweight youngstock shown in-hand .. please, societies, educate judges on this matter in order to stamp it out .. it is cruel to see an obviously overweight youngster, what kind of message does it send out when judges place such animals at the top of the line and what about the future of those unfortunate animals?
More points to raise:
a) underhorsed riders ... this has been allowed for far too long and will, I am sure, be partly responsible for the introduction of a Junior M&M class @ Hoys
b) bad manners in the ring by both rider and horse/pony .. far too often overlooked by judges ... show ring etiquette seems to have disappeared in favour of a cut-throat attitude amongst many riders
c) societies should insist that their members have at least third party insurance in order to compete
Finally, as my grandmother would say, "Everything in moderation", so judges, if you see any extremes of riding, rider/pony suitability and/or pony health issues, please do something about it for your actions in the ring are very influential
Thank you
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Post by the showing register on Jan 16, 2016 17:07:34 GMT
I think this comes under the heading hot topic ! Do you think it would be a good idea to have a non breeding licence or in other words a showing licence based on ?? just for those people who want to show entires? Please dont think this is TSR policy we are just putting forward what others think ! It seems to apply mainly to coloureds.
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Jan 16, 2016 17:18:32 GMT
Surely gradings are the province individual breed societies/registers rather than the province of showing, and not all societies think them a good thing. They have traditionally been designed for breeding animals.
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Post by chloesmum on Jan 16, 2016 17:38:33 GMT
Obviously lots of 'HOT TOPICS' this year - and as always people will have differing opinions. The 'let's get Adults of our small native breeds' seems to be flavour of the month this year but I do hope this is seriously thought through. HOYS are introducing a Junior Class for sound reasons but PLEASE don't stop SMALL LIGHTWEIGHT ADULTS from riding our Native breeds - that is what many were bred for and this is part of our heritage. I am not condoning overweight, heavy riders on small ponies but these are not just adults. Surely we have to rely on judges discretion. I will be interested to see how 'weight limits' on riders could be introduced - are we going to see scales at the side of the ring!!!!!! Well done NPS for having open age classes for SP & SHP maybe HOYS should adopt a more open policy on these classes as certainly many 143cm/153 cm or 148cm SP & Intermediates could easily carry small adults and maybe as sjw87 suggests this could do something to stop the declining numbers in these classes. What saddens me is every year we seem to make things more difficult to compete, more restrictive rather than inclusive, of course we want to encourage children in showing but are we trying to push out adults who want to ride ponies, so once you are over 25 years old that is it unless you go onto horses sounds like age discrimination to me!
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Post by roseview on Jan 16, 2016 18:29:19 GMT
It is a shame that this event clashes with the NPS AGM weekend and events.
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Post by the showing register on Jan 16, 2016 18:37:47 GMT
Yes sorry about that roseview dates are so difficult to arrange and we have lots of judges training and clinics this spring it has been a job to fit it in.
You can take part in the survey after the event or send in a question or comment now.
Chloesmum no one is saying any sort of weight limit is going to happen but the question has come from a welfare person and the showing world should consider the question and show it is responsible by perhaps giving guidelines and advice to riders.
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Post by pinkypie on Jan 16, 2016 18:48:26 GMT
I have 2 questions: What can be done to resolve the height certificate conundrum? Protocol for challenging a height certificate is against the objector and favours the cheater. How can an animal compete in one class for 2 years then a height section lower the next? Years ago P(UK) used to announce that certain classes were subject to measurement - one year 6 came forward for a class that had 25 entered. A worthwhile deterrent? Over-height is a major issue. It was one of the fundamental components of each and every class - age and height. What can be done to stop it, should the judge be able to challenge, can it be made easier for competitors to object? Would random measuring work?
Secondly,a 'hush. hush' problem that is never discussed in an open forum and that is what to do about doping? This is common practice now and taken as a 'given' that certain competitors animals are continually doped. It is very dis-heartening to stand down the line from them. Why should those who have access to performance enhancing drugs, keep getting away with it? Why are their drug compromised animals continually rewarded? It is just not fair or right. The sight of an over-sedated animal being kicked round the ring in a Supreme is nothing less than disgusting, as is the swaying lead rein pony, asleep in the ring. They should not be rewarded - they should be asked to leave the ring - on a suspected 'welfare' issue. If it is obvious to other competitors, surely the judges can see it too! Can they, in many cases keep turning a blind eye to this? What can be done??? Should a judge ask an animal to leave or subject it to a blood test and should the judge be given more power - after all, in all other aspects, their decision is final.
I realise that this is a significant problem that won't be resolved overnight, but it is also a problem that is getting worse and has the potential to spiral out of control. It is also a huge welfare issue. There needs to be first the acknowledgement that the problem exists - pretending it doesn't won't help at all. The Showing Register is well placed to confront this problem, having introduced a series of ground breaking initiatives and complements their ethos - fun and fair.
Good luck and power to you Showing Register
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Post by NPS info on Jan 16, 2016 18:49:29 GMT
Bigmama dig you know that membership to the NPS includes third party insurance
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