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Post by the showing register on Jan 19, 2016 8:56:45 GMT
Very interesting point I think this debate is getting somewhere !
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Post by gillwales on Jan 19, 2016 9:37:01 GMT
I don't think simply judges not putting up overweight animals is the answer. The reasons for ponies being shown over weight has to be understood and addressed . I believe the issue of over weight ponies in particular fat show and show hunter ponies is a direct consequence of only full up to height ponies winning. This has become significantly worse since height measuring became much stricter. The 133 and 143 shp classes are full of miss height over weight show ponies which win because they are full up to height for that class. If they could be successful as a smaller show pony there wouldn't be the need to have them too fat. The bottom line is fat ponies look bigger. Removing the need for ponies to be full up to height will stop ponies being shown overweight. It would be unfair to expect judges to bring about these kind of changes through their judging alone , after all if you are presented as a judge with a ring full of fat show ponies in a shp class your winner will have to be a fat show pony. This kind of change would need showing societies to publish strict directives. Only then would competitors have the confidence show slimmer ponies without the fear that they will look small in the class. I do agree to a point, however you are not oblidged to award a first place when you judge. Education is definately the answer, however changing judging habits is the most assured way of changing the way a competitor presents their animal. Fat is often used to cover up faults, although they often create faults such as a rolling gait. Showing was a way of starting a horse's career and education, now it seems that it is the only career they have, lets make sure that it is a long and healthy one. On the point of being over-height, usually when they are it makes them not of type, therefore these animals really should be wormed out, bigger is not neccessaryily better. When you have one animal by itself it can be difficult to discern type but much easier when in a large class.
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Post by conniegirl on Jan 19, 2016 10:58:47 GMT
I don't think simply judges not putting up overweight animals is the answer. The reasons for ponies being shown over weight has to be understood and addressed . I believe the issue of over weight ponies in particular fat show and show hunter ponies is a direct consequence of only full up to height ponies winning. This has become significantly worse since height measuring became much stricter. The 133 and 143 shp classes are full of miss height over weight show ponies which win because they are full up to height for that class. If they could be successful as a smaller show pony there wouldn't be the need to have them too fat. The bottom line is fat ponies look bigger. Removing the need for ponies to be full up to height will stop ponies being shown overweight. It would be unfair to expect judges to bring about these kind of changes through their judging alone , after all if you are presented as a judge with a ring full of fat show ponies in a shp class your winner will have to be a fat show pony. This kind of change would need showing societies to publish strict directives. Only then would competitors have the confidence show slimmer ponies without the fear that they will look small in the class. I do agree to a point, however you are not oblidged to award a first place when you judge. Education is definately the answer, however changing judging habits is the most assured way of changing the way a competitor presents their animal. Fat is often used to cover up faults, although they often create faults such as a rolling gait. Showing was a way of starting a horse's career and education, now it seems that it is the only career they have, lets make sure that it is a long and healthy one. On the point of being over-height, usually when they are it makes them not of type, therefore these animals really should be wormed out, bigger is not neccessaryily better. When you have one animal by itself it can be difficult to discern type but much easier when in a large class. No you are not obligated to give 1st place by my god you will get a mouth ful of abuse if you dont and then you will get dragged over the coals online too! Which Makes judges understandably very wary of doing this
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Post by Guestless on Jan 19, 2016 11:19:36 GMT
No you are not obligated to give 1st place by my god you will get a mouth ful of abuse if you dont and then you will get dragged over the coals online too! Which Makes judges understandably very wary of doing this That is why I don't agree that judges should not have a right of reply on social media. Even if it is a carefully prepared statement from the society's press officer, I believe a judge SHOULD be able to respond to criticism albeit it needs to be done in a professional manner. Social media is here to stay and modern society needs to adapt and learn the best way to use it.
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Post by the showing register on Jan 19, 2016 11:57:41 GMT
As you know Guestless we do encourage reply unlike other societies and we offer a free advice service for any judge who needs it. This topic is on the list
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Post by willsbury on Jan 19, 2016 14:23:18 GMT
gillwales you are clearly one of the judges who can bring about changes for the better . You wrote "On the point of being over-height, usually when they are it makes them not of type, therefore these animals really should be wormed out, bigger is not necessarily better. When you have one animal by itself it can be difficult to discern type but much easier when in a large class." I am interested in your views in relation to the issue of type. I believe this is an area where potentially there are big problem. Are you splitting type up as just riding pony or hunter pony or do you consider that each individual height section has its own characteristics of type? Traditionally show ponies have been judge as 3 distinct types 12.2 type 13.2 and 14.2 .This worked very well as in the past if you had a 13hh pony that was of 12.2 type you could get a measurement. It used to be relatively easy to get something measured up to a maximum of 2 inches over as long as they looked the correct type. These ponies didn't look bigger in the class, they would just have had high withers or perhaps be a bit leggy. Equally if you had a 13hh pony that was a 13.2 type you would show it in the 13.2 class. heights used to be more of a guide to type then anything else.
Now it is very hard to for the average person to get an up to height, high withered pony measured in as jmb vets are quite rightly very strict. This means that a pony that is only 1cm over would have to to compete in the next class up. What is happening currently is that these ponies never even get to leave the breeders fields, thus hurting breeders who are the bedrock of any showing society. Do breeders need to start breeding ponies that are croup high and flat withered so they can safely measure? . I hope not. If we are going to be strict on measuring then the idea of riding ponies and shp's being of three distinct types in relation to there height section has to be thrown out. They should just be of riding pony type or hunter pony type Perhaps the easiest way of achieving this is if each height section is judged as if it was mixed height class. If a pony in a 13.2 class looks like 12.2 in type it should be judged as such and not against ideals of what a 13.2 type should be like. Australia does not have this issue and their riding pony breeding and showing is thriving and growing. perhaps we need to learn from them.
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Post by the showing register on Jan 19, 2016 15:27:07 GMT
Thanks Willsbury very well put and an interesting concept. Perhaps we should just have a type class say HP not exc 15hh and the class split into 3 or 4 by the ages of rider ? This would suit long legged children and perhaps the ages are rather high 16 years for a 14hh as the children seem to get taller. Would this encourage entries and improve type ?
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 19, 2016 15:44:49 GMT
Is this discussion just about plaited ponies, or does it go much wider? Over height and over fat pony issues are relevant to natives too, where the issue of type is very important.
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Post by the showing register on Jan 19, 2016 15:51:32 GMT
Over weight ponies are already on the list I was not aware that height was a big issue in natives ? Prove me wrong !!
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 19, 2016 16:34:07 GMT
All breeds except Welsh Ds and I think Dales have a breed height limit, some do look big in the classes and buyers look for up to height ones. That point was really in answer to the remark above and subsequent discussion on losing type if big.
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Post by willsbury on Jan 19, 2016 19:02:35 GMT
Thanks Willsbury very well put and an interesting concept. Perhaps we should just have a type class say HP not exc 15hh and the class split into 3 or 4 by the ages of rider ? This would suit long legged children and perhaps the ages are rather high 16 years for a 14hh as the children seem to get taller. Would this encourage entries and improve type ? "Perhaps we should just have a type class say HP not exc 15hh and the class split into 3 or 4 by the ages of rider"
The problem with that solution is the child could only compete in one shp and one sp class if classes split by age of rider. many children compete in at least two height sections of each type and I don't think this practice should be discouraged.
there are so many ways the classes could be changed which would solve the fat pony, big pony, not true to type pony issues, wastage rate of miss height ponies ( really where do they all go/ end up) and make breeding profitable for breeders again. I have many ideas as to how I would like to see the classes changed, but if all of these goals can be achieved by just a few simple modifications to the current system then this would seem to me to be simplest solution, these changes could easily be put in place.
on a different subject hunters surely need an extra class. I wouldn't like to see small hunters increase in height, not every adult wishes to ride or keep huge horses, so the logical thing would be to have a 15.2hh to 16hh/ 16.1hh hunter, this could be either be as 2 small hunter classes or as two lightweight hunter classes. maxi cobs have been a huge success and have cleaned up the weight classes nicely. the introduction of riding horses also made a huge difference to the hunter and hack classes. If any class has the greatest incentive to measure down over height horses it is the small hunters. Again if we want a clean sport and top class animals every high class show horse that gets bred must have a class where it can excel .
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Post by gillwales on Jan 19, 2016 19:20:54 GMT
All breeds except Welsh Ds and I think Dales have a breed height limit, some do look big in the classes and buyers look for up to height ones. That point was really in answer to the remark above and subsequent discussion on losing type if big. Now I dont , nor never have had cobs, but living where I do ensures exposure of the passion of Wales .. (next to rugby! ) If you watch the classes you rarely see huge cobs dispite there not being a height limit. Type is King and the "typey" ones usually stand between 14.2 and 15 hands. The very large ones tend to be used for breeding part-breds. Other breeds/ classes could do well to mimic the Judging of Welsh cobs.. (providing they mark down waving at the crowds... but that is another subject )
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 19, 2016 19:42:58 GMT
But anyone buying one to ride wants nothing under 15hh, and the big ones DO tend to lose type. I agree with you, the best aren't over big, I just speak as I find as a breeder.
My remarks were for breeds other than those with no height limit, perhaps my grammar is at fault but the intention was to exempt those breeds with no height limit as the expression "up to height" is inapplicable to those - up to what height?
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Post by bigmama on Jan 19, 2016 20:21:40 GMT
But anyone buying one to ride wants nothing under 15hh, and the big ones DO tend to lose type. I agree with you, the best aren't over big, I just speak as I find as a breeder. My remarks were for breeds other than those with no height limit, perhaps my grammar is at fault but the intention was to exempt those breeds with no height limit as the expression "up to height" is inapplicable to those - up to what height? First I have heard "anyone buying one (Welsh D?) wants nothing under 15hh" I have to say, I have seen some suspiciously large connemaras and highlands competing in the major qualifiers over the past two years
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Post by bigmama on Jan 19, 2016 20:27:53 GMT
Thatboythatgirl Would you be asking the question .. should only the rider of the pony work it in at the show before competing ? Under BSPS rules, only tack that is allowed in the ring can be used in the collecting ring so why is it that a rider who is not eligible to ride a pony in the ring is allowed to ride it in the collecting ring? TSE, will you be bringing this up at your meeting, please?
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Post by the showing register on Jan 19, 2016 20:34:21 GMT
Big mama the answer is yes. Willsbury what are your ideas ? You can message if you like but what I am trying to do is gather peoples thoughts so that we ask the question and try to put forward some answers. On the day we will be having show of hands etc to gather public opinion
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 19, 2016 22:24:31 GMT
I speak as I find - all the enquiries I get for Ds are for big ones - and I don't breed them big.
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Post by gillwales on Jan 20, 2016 6:31:15 GMT
I think the main thing we all seem agreed on re Welsh Sec D's are the really big ones tend to loose type, which was my point re over-height anything. We do know that there are people who look for huge ones for riding as there has recently been a post on here, the lady concerned was given the same sort of advice re type as I recall. However if you watch the classes at the Royal Welsh, and those around the area I live in the ones at the top of the line are nearly always very "typey" and are usually 14.2 to 15 hands, I am sure there will be the exceptions
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bugs
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Post by bugs on Jan 20, 2016 7:35:10 GMT
In terms of heights in native classes, in whp, I have a D who is just over 14hh (never measured by JMB only at home) and jumps in the exc 143cm, but some of the ones in the 133-143cm section tower over him. They are huge, especially connemaras and highlands which seem to like to do it to get the smaller jumps. Stewards ask when I'm warming up if he should jump in the 14hh class so clearly many of these must be over 143cm if he is smaller than them, but there is no control of it unless they qualify which is 10-20 ponies a year out of hundreds.
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Post by chloesmum on Jan 20, 2016 19:03:49 GMT
Bigmama - are you just talking about 'collecting ring' or whole showground? I go back to my earlier point what is someone going to do who is in the ring on one pony and is in the next class on another? Are you really suggesting that we should 'ban' anyone else from sitting on the pony? Some ponies don't take well to just being held (especially stallions). What is wrong with someone riding a pony in? The judging takes place in the ring with the rider on it so ideally the rider would want to ride their own pony in but it is not always practical if you are competing on another pony.
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Post by the showing register on Jan 20, 2016 19:43:00 GMT
I think bigmama is probably thinking about adult producers riding in and then the child just getting on for the class. Of course it would also catch what you are talking about which is the problem with all rules they never quite do what was intended.
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Jan 20, 2016 20:03:47 GMT
My niece will have to ride her 133shp and 14shp compete one then get on and go in ring other one
Maybe if ponies where still bred for manners and temperament rather than looks kids ponies wouldnt have to be worked in for hours by an adult then be drugged upto it's eyeballs
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Post by the showing register on Jan 20, 2016 20:11:04 GMT
No one is saying this is or is not going to happen it is just for debate !
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Post by willsbury on Jan 20, 2016 22:04:36 GMT
My niece will have to ride her 133shp and 14shp compete one then get on and go in ring other one Maybe if ponies where still bred for manners and temperament rather than looks kids ponies wouldnt have to be worked in for hours by an adult then be drugged upto it's eyeballs totally agree, the idea of stopping other riders working ponies in is not worth considering . I would like to see inappropriate riding of ponies at shows come under scrutiny, but as long as adults ride ponies in a sympathetic manner I see no problem with it.
However problems with manners and temperament rarely has any thing to do with a ponies breeding. Yes some mare or stallion lines can produce stock that can be harder to train or are more naturally playful, but problems with manners or temperament are almost exclusively down to the way they are handled and trained whether this be as young stock with the breeder or owner or later when they are trained under saddle. there is absolutely no reason why you cant have manners, good temperament as well as looks..
one could argue that ponies suffering due to excessive, short cut training methods to get them to win at hoys as 4 year old could be down to the tightening of the measuring system. owners producers not being able to give these beautiful animals time to mature and be trained correctly for fear of them not measuring the next year.
is a strict measuring policy helping to improve showing or is it making it worse?
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 20, 2016 23:05:51 GMT
They are born with their own basic temperament, it cannot be produced, but manners are entirely due to handling and training.
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Post by the showing register on Jan 21, 2016 7:29:48 GMT
Willsbury good question about the measuring and 4 year olds
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Post by gillwales on Jan 21, 2016 8:42:47 GMT
Willsbury I disagree with you on one point, horses/ ponies, in fact anything is born with temperment, it is part of their nature, but maners are learnt and down to training.
Maybe the way to prevent short cuts, the height issues and many other things, even to a degree the weight problems ( excessive weight is often used to make an animal look more mature )is to say that 4 year olds cannot be entered into HOYS/ RHIS qualifiers. We need to slow down the preasure put on young animals.
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Post by viking on Jan 21, 2016 9:31:13 GMT
'Maybe the way to prevent short cuts, the height issues and many other things, even to a degree the weight problems ( excessive weight is often used to make an animal look more mature )is to say that 4 year olds cannot be entered into HOYS/ RHIS qualifiers. We need to slow down the preasure put on young animals.'
Well said gillwales.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 21, 2016 10:25:26 GMT
Agreed.
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Post by NPS info on Jan 21, 2016 14:59:23 GMT
The pure novice, the novice and the famous Picton classes (all NPS) are suffering from low entry because everyone wants to enter their ponies in HOYS qualifiers before coming through the novice ranks. The NPS area shows suffer because they cannot afford to run classes at a loss and the shows fold. Requiring entries to be 5 and over would be a win win situation all round but it will never happen .
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