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Post by gillwales on Jan 21, 2016 16:27:32 GMT
The pure novice, the novice and the famous Picton classes (all NPS) are suffering from low entry because everyone wants to enter their ponies in HOYS qualifiers before coming through the novice ranks. The NPS area shows suffer because they cannot afford to run classes at a loss and the shows fold. Requiring entries to be 5 and over would be a win win situation all round but it will never happen . It will if there is enough preasure, if the Producers think about it, doing this will increase their profits as it will dilute the number of casses their babies can enter and increase the number of clients, this with personally I would like to see, combined with the removal of age limits will do a huge amount for R/Ps and H/Ps, plus it will improve the lot of the Picton classes. There certainly used to be classes at HOTS when at Wembley for Novice Hacks and Novice Hunters, these classes were very well supported and the winner and 2nd placed animals were allowed into the Championship but not the open classes. So instead of adding more sections . such as the PB class, concentrate on the sections we do have. To save showing and the RP/ HP in particular we really have to think outside the box, I applaud TSR for starting this debate and to the NPS for joining in, I do hope that other Societies approach TSR to be part of this all.
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Post by chloesmum on Jan 22, 2016 9:27:01 GMT
I think the NPS novice classes are great - it is a shame that the Famous Picton does not seem to still have that 'kudos' for us winning the Picton would be a major achievement in a season with a novice. I do agree re 4 year olds at HOYS we have never had a 4 year old that we would campaign at this level, most of ours do not come out till 5 or later as novices! I applaud the NPS attempts to discourage 4 year olds being campaigned for HOYS/RIHS however last years changes in rules were restrictive in terms of the Young Pony class - disqualifying 5 and 6 year olds if they qualify for HOYS I believe was a mistake and probably did reduce numbers in the finals. I think it is not so much the age but encouraging ponies to have one or two 'novice' seasons. Glad to see that NPS have amended these rules for this season but Picton should always be a Novice class and I think the winter Pure Novice is again a great class to educate young ponies. Interesting that often there is a big difference between the M&M classes and the plaited. Looking back at results it is certainly not uncommon for a 4 year old to win HOYS in plaited ranks but much rarer in the M&Ms. Having said that I often think 'if you have won HOYS with a 4 year old - where do you go from there?'.
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sarahp
Happy to help
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Post by sarahp on Jan 22, 2016 10:10:55 GMT
I wonder if natives are later to mature than plaiteds with the influence of TB blood perhaps?
Mine aren't often broken until 4yo either, or maybe backed at 3yo and turned away, then do a novice season as 5yo with no big qualifiers. I'm a great fan of the Picton, which was always the target for their novice season if shown by me. One of them wasn't broken until she was 10yo but was still very much a novice ridden, it's more about milage than age.
It used to be that showing was something one did with young animals for their education before they went on to their "proper" career, be it hunting, jumping or dressaging. If you win HOYS as a 4yo they could then always have a change of career, or for a mare or stallion, retire to the breeding paddocks!
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Post by not logged in on Jan 22, 2016 11:47:52 GMT
I believe natives definitely mature much later, we have a 5 year old who still struggles to keep an outline in canter and pokes his nose but we refuse to use some of the methods that are out there and will wait until he develops the correct muscles as he grows and matures, he's too special to rush. We would love to enter some age classes with our babies but I find they are few and far between and the show I was hoping would hold them as they did last year has dropped them for this year.
Sarah, I agree about mileage rather than age but it is very disheartening when you are starting a year with a true novice 4 year old and there are 10 year old novices in your class which later the same year qualify for RI and HOYS!
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sarahp
Happy to help
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Post by sarahp on Jan 22, 2016 11:54:26 GMT
That's function of conditions of the classes, nothing wrong with older novices. I hope you aren't advocating closing novice classes for older ones? That 10yo may have done less under saddle than your 4yo.
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Post by not logged in on Jan 22, 2016 13:39:37 GMT
I didn't say there is anything wrong with older novices and I didn't say novice classes should be closed to older ponies - I agreed with part of your post, why have you taken what I said and found issues with all of it?
The month was January, our 4 year old was at his second show under saddle, the 10 year old novice qualified for RI and HOYS that season, in whose world can my 4 year old possibly have done more?? Not mine.
I am merely wishing that more shows ran age classes for the babies.
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sarahp
Happy to help
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Post by sarahp on Jan 22, 2016 15:33:20 GMT
Only the last bit about novice classes, and your one case doesn't prove a rule, some other people could have gone on to qualify your 4yo, plenty do, not that I approve of that any more than you do. No offence intended, just sticking up for older novices, age classes would have ruled out my genuine novice 10yo and then where could she have gained her experience? I'm not sure how it could be laid down in the rules, but a just broken old one is a different kettle of fish to one that's been ridden all its life, so gained the schooling and muscle, just never done any actual showing.
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Post by Guestless on Jan 23, 2016 18:38:49 GMT
We had a card system when I used to compete in Highland dancing and I often wonder if something similar could be used for showing - we got our card stamped when we were placed in a beginners class and then proceeded to novice, intermediate and then had a year in advanced intermediate before going into open. If you wanted to go straight into open, you could but you couldn't back track and you also had to go into open if you lost your card. It worked well and I daresay it will have been somehow modernised since I competed but something that logged novice results could be good.
I would still like to see streamlining of the novice rules anyway - I don't think I can ever accept that a pony that competes at HOYS one year can still do novice classes the following year. I don't have a problem with a pony doing novice and open if that's what the rider wants, but if you qualify for HOYS (and compete at the final) then how can that pony still be seen as a novice?
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Post by maxandpaddy on Jan 23, 2016 19:11:30 GMT
Totally agree, the current novice rules are over complicated, if they just simplified it with like you say a card system it would be fairer and easier to follow and understand!!
As yet we havent joined a society for this season, after a few years of show ponies I need to figure out which society is best for a NOVICE Section D whose now 7 but only been out under saddle twice and has plenty of choice within N Yorks which sometimes seems like the outer Hebrides !!
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Post by Discussion on Jan 24, 2016 19:50:43 GMT
I would like to see bits discussed, the new fashion of wilkie and curb is awful, and judges are placing them highly. Education needed to the impact of these bits. Also the swales. Your horse feels lighter in your hand as it is behind the bit! Backing off the pain. Why can't judges even spot behind the bit, overbent? The poll should be the highest point.
And also would like discussed social media. Hate hate hate seeing competitors and judges on facebook pictured with arms round each other on regular nights out, regularly chatting to each other on fb, then judging each other the next weekend and hey winning too. Looks so bad, embarrassing for all concerned. But there is no shame! Obviously this must have been happening in days gone by, but now its so much more visible and extremely off putting to us not in the chummy set.
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Post by gillwales on Jan 24, 2016 20:31:10 GMT
There should be no place in the show ring for a wilkie..... end of story.
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Post by NPS 2 on Jan 24, 2016 21:41:13 GMT
When the NPS ran Olympia qualifiers ponies had to be 5 or over, sadly the BSPS don't seem to mind although strangely you can still be a novice in BSPS terms when you'd be Open with most other societies. One of the other areas that needs addressing is the view that only stallions have the "star quality" required to win. Far too many stallions being shown in ridden classes at the moment who wouldn't pass as suitable for breeding if they were inspected by the relevant society, this needs to be addressed if we aren't too loose type in future stock. The issue of 'overweight' is a problem in many of the native breeds, some societies will ask for measurement if an objection is raised, maybe need to have random measuring - that would soon reduce the entries where it was an option!
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Post by Novice/restricted on Jan 25, 2016 17:32:00 GMT
Definitely agree that novice rules need to be looked at. How is it that's a horse a pony can go to HOYS/RIHS etc and rule itself out of restricted classes, yet still compete as a novice? Surely the progression is novice-restricted-open? If a pony is a) good enough to enter a qualifier b) good enough to qualify c) good enough to get a place, then surely it shouldnt be able to compete in a novice class? I really do think that as soon as a pony is placed at HOYS/RIHS then it should be immediately de-noviced. It makes a joke of the system when a pony can win the RI in July then compete in the novice classes at the BSPS champs in August! The whole point of novice classes is for ponies to gain valuable experience in the ring, not for more established ponies to have another class to do!
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Post by the showing register on Jan 25, 2016 21:05:44 GMT
Will include this
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Post by FedUp1 on Sept 29, 2016 10:50:05 GMT
On the subject of over weight ponies, I have on several occasions been put down the line at NPS Summer Champs for my pony not being fat enough, she was in excellent condition just not pig fat, so until judges stop putting fat ponies at the top of the line, the problem will continue. Hence Judges need to educated and dirrected. There is a page on Facebook called Ponies of Yesteryear, they are mainly from the 60's and 70's , they carry a lot less weight, have much better limbs and plenty of elbow space, proper 4 square ponies that would go out and do a job. We really need to get back to this type of animal. Also the children looked the right size and not under-sized midgets! I have a lovely hunter pony who has a leg in each corner, big but not particuarly flashy/daisycutting mover and a true middle/heavy hunter pony. She does very well local level but go to the higher levels.....doesnt get a look in. I am too old to ride her in SHP Classes, she is .6mm overheight for the part bred class (which is gutting because there is no age limit) and although she is within the heights limits for the small hunter classes she doesnt get a look in beause she is 'too small'. What classes am i supposed to do
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Post by kateanne0 on Sept 29, 2016 15:19:37 GMT
Which part bred classes are you meaning?
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Post by volatis on Sept 30, 2016 12:44:12 GMT
[quote author="FedUp1" source="/post/1386650/thread" timestamp="1475146205"I have a lovely hunter pony who has a leg in each corner, big but not particuarly flashy/daisycutting mover and a true middle/heavy hunter pony. She does very well local level but go to the higher levels.....doesnt get a look in. I am too old to ride her in SHP Classes, she is .6mm overheight for the part bred class (which is gutting because there is no age limit) and although she is within the heights limits for the small hunter classes she doesnt get a look in beause she is 'too small'. What classes am i supposed to do [/quote] If she is under 153cms you can compete in NPS SHP classes as there is no rider age limit
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Post by gillwales on Sept 30, 2016 19:53:25 GMT
Hence Judges need to educated and dirrected. There is a page on Facebook called Ponies of Yesteryear, they are mainly from the 60's and 70's , they carry a lot less weight, have much better limbs and plenty of elbow space, proper 4 square ponies that would go out and do a job. We really need to get back to this type of animal. Also the children looked the right size and not under-sized midgets! I have a lovely hunter pony who has a leg in each corner, big but not particuarly flashy/daisycutting mover and a true middle/heavy hunter pony. She does very well local level but go to the higher levels.....doesnt get a look in. I am too old to ride her in SHP Classes, she is .6mm overheight for the part bred class (which is gutting because there is no age limit) and although she is within the heights limits for the small hunter classes she doesnt get a look in beause she is 'too small'. What classes am i supposed to do The NPS do classes that have no age limit, lets hope that at sometime HOYS see the light and offer them too, then the BSPS might change, with the start of weight limits on riders it might come about. Push your local shows to change to the NPS classes. If WPB or PBA you could do those classes
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Post by chloesmum on Oct 1, 2016 7:46:33 GMT
Here here! But I think that unless classes were opened up for HOYS and RIHS then these classes will still not take off. The P/B class has opened the door which is great, perhaps the term that is being used 'suitably mounted' should extend to all classes so why an age limit then? Personally I would love a SHP or SP again!
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Post by kateanne0 on Oct 2, 2016 16:52:02 GMT
The pure novice, the novice and the famous Picton classes (all NPS) are suffering from low entry because everyone wants to enter their ponies in HOYS qualifiers before coming through the novice ranks. The NPS area shows suffer because they cannot afford to run classes at a loss and the shows fold. Requiring entries to be 5 and over would be a win win situation all round but it will never happen . As the saying goes 'never say never'! If enough, breeders, owners, home produced and amateurs put forward this idea at an AGM, it should be seriously considered. It should not just be the societies that are allowed to make rules as they see fit! Yes, the societies run the shows but without happy competitors there wouldn't be many shows to run! Lets face it,if we count the number of true professional producers at each show would they outnumber the rest? Probably no, and it is the rest that make up the majority of the show income to societies (IMO) At the end of the day the majority could carry the vote; this does mean that everyone would have to stand up and be counted. Also, for breeders of top class animals there are the HOYS cuddy classes. I've left out producers because at the end of the day the majority of their owners want their animals produced to win at the highest level and their instructions need to be followed or the producer will lose the income. I am not saying that they wouldn't support such a ruling being made. However, surely Grandstand Media (HOYS) could make this one of their own rules and lead from the top,, after all, it is a true welfare issue and well worth consideration? There wouldn't be much loss of income because most HOYS qualifying classes are already well supported; just a thought . . . . . .
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Post by kateanne0 on Oct 2, 2016 16:59:46 GMT
I don't think simply judges not putting up overweight animals is the answer. The reasons for ponies being shown over weight has to be understood and addressed . I believe the issue of over weight ponies in particular fat show and show hunter ponies is a direct consequence of only full up to height ponies winning. This has become significantly worse since height measuring became much stricter. The 133 and 143 shp classes are full of miss height over weight show ponies which win because they are full up to height for that class. If they could be successful as a smaller show pony there wouldn't be the need to have them too fat. The bottom line is fat ponies look bigger. Removing the need for ponies to be full up to height will stop ponies being shown overweight. It would be unfair to expect judges to bring about these kind of changes through their judging alone , after all if you are presented as a judge with a ring full of fat show ponies in a shp class your winner will have to be a fat show pony. This kind of change would need showing societies to publish strict directives. Only then would competitors have the confidence show slimmer ponies without the fear that they will look small in the class. I do agree to a point, however you are not oblidged to award a first place when you judge. Education is definately the answer, however changing judging habits is the most assured way of changing the way a competitor presents their animal. Fat is often used to cover up faults, although they often create faults such as a rolling gait. Showing was a way of starting a horse's career and education, now it seems that it is the only career they have, lets make sure that it is a long and healthy one. On the point of being over-height, usually when they are it makes them not of type, therefore these animals really should be wormed out, bigger is not neccessaryily better. When you have one animal by itself it can be difficult to discern type but much easier when in a large class. It's not just a first place that can be withheld. On at least 2 occasions, and in the past, there have been very brave judges who have awarded top placed animals with a place that would not allow them to qualify for a prestigious show, I think it was the RI but please don't ask me to name when and where, it was in the past but it did happen!
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Oct 2, 2016 17:56:02 GMT
Considering Sandy made it clear he views small breeds m&ms as a child's pony and introduced junior class because of this. Do you really think that he will want open up PONY classes? the NPS classes are poorly supported
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Post by elsie on Oct 4, 2016 7:14:35 GMT
Interesting comment which probably says a lot of what is behind all the push for 'weight/height' restrictions! Is it actually all about age discrimination!
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Post by ponymum on Oct 4, 2016 8:17:41 GMT
On the subject of weight / size ratio , I dont know the correct weight for hunters to carry , however going off the comment i saw regarding a 41' shetland that weighed 260kg and would be capable of carrying 8 stone , surely a hunter is capable of carrying more than 12 stone??? I really think this needs some research before anything is enforced...
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Post by titch on Oct 4, 2016 8:51:49 GMT
There should be no place in the show ring for a wilkie..... end of story. Or a Wilkie double !
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Post by kateanne0 on Oct 4, 2016 9:15:52 GMT
Over weight ponies are already on the list I was not aware that height was a big issue in natives ? Prove me wrong !! For those of us that may not be able to attend a debate, are you going to issue a survey with the list of subjects to be discussed (as you did a while ago) so that non-attendees input on what points they agree/disagree? A lot more input will be achieved to balance that on the day of debate.
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Post by bigmama on Oct 4, 2016 11:43:20 GMT
Interesting comment which probably says a lot of what is behind all the push for 'weight/height' restrictions! Is it actually all about age discrimination! Would you really advocate a person of obviously large proportion of ANY age riding a small pony?
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Oct 4, 2016 11:47:08 GMT
On the subject of weight / size ratio , I dont know the correct weight for hunters to carry , however going off the comment i saw regarding a 41' shetland that weighed 260kg and would be capable of carrying 8 stone , surely a hunter is capable of carrying more than 12 stone??? I really think this needs some research before anything is enforced... With Hunter its nothing to with height of animal its to do with amount of bone below the knee which determines the weight carrying capability for a day in the hunting field. Lightweight Show Hunter carrying up to 12 stone 7lbs, normally about 8-81/2 inches of bone Middleweight Show Hunter capable of carrying from 12 stone 7lbs to 14 stone about 9 inches of bone Heavyweight Show Hunter, capable of carrying more than 14stone 9- 9 /2 inches of bone In regards to ponies I imagine that most riding ponies have less bone than small breed m&ms( maybe not sec Bs as there seem to be alot of very fine Bs about) so would not be capable of carrying the same amount as say a standard shetland
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Post by the showing register on Oct 4, 2016 18:40:10 GMT
Over weight ponies are already on the list I was not aware that height was a big issue in natives ? Prove me wrong !! For those of us that may not be able to attend a debate, are you going to issue a survey with the list of subjects to be discussed (as you did a while ago) so that non-attendees input on what points they agree/disagree? A lot more input will be achieved to balance that on the day of debate. Yes.For the 4th December 2016 debate we are inviting the panel members in the next two weeks and then will invite questions by e mail, HG etc. Once the most popular questions have been chosen they will be published and now I use Survey Monkey for these things I will put them up as a survey then anyone can put their views forward by voting and via the comment box and we will communicate the results on the day. 3 panels one for inside the ring debate , one for the outside the ring debate and one for Integrity in the ring. I have split it up as the different drafts effect different sectors of showing ie inside the ring seems to be having a lot of comment from MM riders so we need representatives from them outside the ring probably effects producers more so they should be represented I would really like to have it properley representative because it will make for a better and more thorough end to the consultation. Whatever the end result I am now in posession of a lot of data GC
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