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Post by pollycrystal on Feb 17, 2016 10:48:55 GMT
My Connemara is rising 18, he had quite a bad bout of laminitis about 4 years ago, and with remedial shoeing etc, he came sound and has been fine until this year when he hasn't been just quite sound on and off. He looks as if he has laminitis, but doesn't really have any of the usual symptoms, no bounding pulse, reaction to hoof testers. So on the vet and farriers advice, he is put on box rest for a couple of weeks, and comes sound. He was tested for Cushings in December, with the results being in the 20's, so is on half a tablet of Prascend a day. At the same time all his feet were x-rayed, and showed a very slight rotation in one front, needing no intervention.This week he is very unsound again, pottery and looking a bit miserable, so he is in again, the vet came yesterday to do the follow up blood test for Cushings and the result was 14 so he was very pleased, but why does he keep getting these bouts of lami (if that's what it is?). The vet just said when he is lame just keep him in on Bute till he comes sound, which is what I do, but it doesn't really solve anything. I don't feed him any cereal, protein, sugar, just fibrechop and nuts and Outshine. Anyone had this problem and what was the answer/outcome? Sorry to ramble !
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sarahp
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Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Feb 17, 2016 11:22:57 GMT
Has your vet talked to you about insulin resistance/EMS? It's the other hormonal base cause of laminitis, and blood tests can be done to test for it. In my limited experience they do get more liable to attacks as they get older, and can have them with no apparent dietary cause - years ago before I (or the vets!) knew as much about it as I do now I bought a mare that I knew was prone to laminitis, hoping that on my deliberately poor grass she would be OK with me after her dairy cow grass previous home, but not to be - her first attack was in Feb, on no grass, no bucket feeding and not overweight. She was rather a learning curve after that!
I know I sound picky, but what you need to avoid in the diet is sugar and starch - protein is fine and necessary to grow good new feet. It might be worth checking out the actual ingredients of what you feed him - there is by law a white label sewn into the label of the feed bags giving them, and in the order of amount of inclusion, largest first. No cereals, as you are doing, or molasses either which is basically sugar. Manufacturers' blurbs can be a bit selective as to what information they give out. If I have any suggestion of laminitis they go onto a diet of hay, soaked is ideal if you can, but as poor in nutritional quality (must be clean and not dusty though) as possible, plus a suitable balancer to provide all essential micronutrients - I use Top Spec AntiLam which is designed for laminitic ponies. Sometimes they get alfalfa/oil for higher calories if they need them, on the whole my Welsh As don't but your boy might.
It doesn't sound like it in your case, but you are aware of the genetic condition of poor horn growth found in Connemaras I hope?
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Post by pollycrystal on Feb 17, 2016 12:11:09 GMT
Hi Sarah, many thanks for the advice. I suggested a blood test for EMS to my vet at the same time as the x-rays and original Cushings test and he didn't think it necessary. I avoid all sugar based products, although have been advised by others to use Speedi-beet, when I asked the vet, he said it is still sugar beet and not to use it. I omitted to mention that the pony also has Baileys Lo-Cal balancer. He isn't in bad condition, although looks a bit ribby to me, I do sometimes wonder whether he gets enough calories. He gets hay, it's fibrous, not very good quality.He is normally turned out 24 hours a day, with 3 others, they are on 6 acres at the moment but the grass quality is poor. I really feel like I am doing all I can to keep him safe, but it is quite depressing to know that it isn't enough.The other 3 are fine, and I naively felt with the diagnosis of Cushings, when he began the medication, that it would solve the problem, obviously not.
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Post by pollycrystal on Feb 17, 2016 12:15:43 GMT
Also, I have read about the Hoof Wall separation syndrome, it's very interesting, but I would have thought that it would have become obvious by the time he was in his teens, he never had any hoof problems till he was 13? What do you think?
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Feb 17, 2016 12:43:21 GMT
Also, I have read about the Hoof Wall separation syndrome, it's very interesting, but I would have thought that it would have become obvious by the time he was in his teens, he never had any hoof problems till he was 13? What do you think? It is possible he has a low grade HWSS - but unlikely - the only way to be sure would be to test. Like Sarah, I like the antilam products from Topspec if I have one with lami. When I have had them with lami I have fed Antilam with hifi lite. Also I have soaked the haynets for up to 12 hours prior to feeding.
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Post by pollycrystal on Feb 17, 2016 13:14:34 GMT
So do you feed the Antilam all the time as a balancer? I was wondering what the difference in ingredients is to the Lo-cal, might look it up. I am willing to try anything!
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Feb 17, 2016 14:11:51 GMT
I just fed the antilam, no balancer. It states on their website that comprehensive balancer can be fed if extra condition is required. Give them a ring and see what they say. I use Baileys Lo-cal as my balancer now, but I really rate Topspec antilam if I need it. Having had a horse with HWSS I tend to make sure that there are no added sugars in their diets, so I now feed unmolassed chaff as well - neurotic I know!! I am sure you will have seen the laminitis site, but it has some useful tips on diet and management.
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Post by ThisletonStud on Feb 18, 2016 23:01:42 GMT
I feel your pain and totally sympathise with you. I'm sick of this dreaded disease!
After years of having a laminitic on Ts anti lam I now have to say I don't recommend that you feed it your laminitics. Especially if it is the sugar/starch that can cause them to have an attack. Yes it is full of lovely vits and minerals but it is still bound together by sugar. It states it has low levels but it is enough to tip a bordering laminitic over the edge to another attack. I know I will have opened a can of worms here but I did a hell of a lot of searching to find this. I'm not saying it will always cause an attack. But why take the chance. I have to disagree with your vet about the speedbeet. It's unmollassed and therefore has no sugar. It is safe to use. As is fibrebeet. As for a balancer, again I found after lots of searching, forage plus do a balancer for laminitics with NO sugar or starch. It's bound together by the pure state of it and also linseed, which of course has lots of benefits for laminitics anyway. Since being on the above feed, my pony for the first time in 5 years has grown good, solid healthy horn, this is noticeable from only October! Whereas on Ts the quality of new horn was horrendous. Possibly the reason why we've never progressed with the lami bouts.
I hope for you both it isn't another bad attack and that you can get through it quickly.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Feb 19, 2016 7:50:33 GMT
Do you have the full analysis? If so I would love to see it if you would let me have it - I know TS are not good at publishing them although will tell you if you ask. It's the nature of any feedstuff to contain a complex mixture of components, and it would be extremely difficult to totally eliminate any trace of some - the usual advice for laminitics is that their diet should contain less than 10% sugar and starch in total, that is added together. Manufacturers will normally quote "low sugar" or "no added sugar" to take account of this.
My ponies all live out 24/7 all year round in a herd, so no bucket feeds are fed unless I have to have any in, but I do give the AntiLam to any that are separated and on a diet, which means that I can't make any comment about their horn quality with respect to it.. In general terms horn quality here is good anyway, but if I've had one to manage with weak horn, laminitic or not, I've found that any good balancer I've used consistently has helped them to grow better quality horn.
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Post by Philippa on Feb 19, 2016 8:13:43 GMT
I agree with Thistleton regarding the TS Anti Lam. I had a mare who was only 9 but started having to odd lam I bout and 'off days'. I had her tested for EMS and her results were through the roof, she also had a slight rotation, we stripped everything back, she was on box rest for months, she was fed soaked hay, simple systems feed, I tried various products etc etc and she came sound but then went off again. We then tested for cushings and her results came back in the 90's. She had a full tablet a day for a month and then reduced to half a tablet. Again she came sound, this was in the October. She was still on box rest though. Anyway we had 3 months of her being sound when for no reason out of the blue with no diet change, she went lame again with lammi. I sadly made the decision that she was never going to have the quality of life she deserved and at just 11yrs old with cushings & EMS I let her go. It was the hardest decision I've ever made as when she was right you wouldn't think there was anything wrong.
What I'm trying to say is EMS & Cushings are 2 separate diseases contrary to what people think. Check your feed content as there are some that are approved by the lammi trust but they do contain sugars which in an EMS sufferer is fatal.
I hope you can sort your ponies problem and he makes a full recovery. Xx
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Feb 19, 2016 8:57:30 GMT
Sadly they can do that whatever they are fed, or not fed. What connection are you trying to make with the AntiLam, you haven't given any details of its use with you? It doesn't claim to be a cure, there aren't any, but a supportive supplement.
It's always worth checking ingredients and analysis for yourself, I'm always banging on about it!
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Post by catkin on Feb 19, 2016 9:03:16 GMT
Your pony sounds exactly as my older section A was before he had blood tests and consequently is now on a quarter of a prascend a day. So, it might be worth having the bloods done again to find out if there is another/related problem still and/or that the dosage is correct. I too disagree on the Speedibeet. What I would say is that whilst my pony (22 yrs) is now pretty much sound, some days he could be considered 'tottery' on hard/irregular surfaces and I just cannot get him up to weight. He is fed ad lib hay, very little grass, speedibeet and alpha A (lite). He has and always has had, front shoes and my farrier is a remedial expert, so I am pretty sure he is doing all sorts of wonderful things to him as a matter of his usual shoeing rather than as a stand-alone 'project'. We do have to keep him shod very regularly and he does grow too much toe. I do hope you get to the bottom of whatever is going on. Dare I say it though, that you might also consider some bute or similar to keep the pony comfortable and moving. It doesn't sound like you have neglected this issue and so you may now be looking at ensuring quality of life. Good luck.
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Post by Philippa on Feb 19, 2016 11:10:45 GMT
My relation to the anti lam is that's it's bound with sugar substance.
Forgot to say my mare was being shod every 5 weeks due to foot growth but unfortunately towards the end she was going to have to have so much foot cut back and glue on shoes every 4 weeks at £140 a set with no guarantee of success that we had also to be realistic. My farrier is my vets remedial farrier.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Feb 19, 2016 12:15:09 GMT
When I was out in the barn this morning I have brought in the white bag label from my AntiLam. I'm not an expert, but have studied nutrition, including production methods, as part of my Equine Masters course, and my interpretation would be as follows:- first I'd guess that TS wanted to produce a pellet so that it could be fed alone, unlike a vit/mix powder which would require the user to add it to feed of some sort. As I've said before, ingredients are given in order of inclusion and the first lot are high fibre oat product, grass meal, linseed expeller, wheatfeed and soya hulls - all high fibre feeds to make the bulk of the supplement. The next is vit/min premix, which would be a small quantity of powder, as anyone who feeds one straight would know, and molasses is next followed by calcium carbonate, dicalcium phosphate, salt, magnesium oxide and soya oil. The tiny quantities of molasses and soya oil would be necessary to bind the various bits together to make a pellet, and given the small amount of supplement fed, the actual amount of sugar would be minute.
I suspect it is described as a supplement rather than a balancer as the protein content is 12% whereas most balancers are designed to provide top quality protein in the form of individual aminoacids and would have a much higher protein%.
As for shoeing - my farrier, who does not do remedial work, has in the past corrected the pedal bone rotation due to laminitis of two ponies of mine (one of which catkin will remember!) using normal shoes and without benefit of regular X-rays just by trimming appropriately - which meant making the front wall parallel to the pastern angle so back into the dead laminae at the toes leaving a half moon with no hoof wall - and then shoeing. He may have used two toe clips, I can't remember now. This was before modern inventions like glue on shoes when X-rays were a big event!
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Post by Louise Dixon on Feb 19, 2016 12:28:40 GMT
Something else to add into the mix is the sugar content of your hay, which can vary hugely - worth having it tested.
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Post by Philippa on Feb 19, 2016 12:29:04 GMT
We also only had one X-ray and ordinary shoes. The problem was what was going to have to happen as the pony wouldn't have stood being shod every 4 weeks due to pain, lack of foot etc etc.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Feb 19, 2016 13:36:42 GMT
Both mine no longer had active laminitis, just the results of it in terms of rotation, so no more pain than anything being shod, and lots of foot growth! Much more recently I bought a beautiful mare with EMS who was shod for a time but obviously the hammering hurt her feet so we had to stop, and eventually it became clear that the kindest thing for her was to be pts.
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Post by fanfarefan on Feb 19, 2016 13:45:36 GMT
my heart always sinks when i see another horse has Cushings it is a very irratic disease , which does seem to have a mind of its own and laminitis canrear its ugly head at any time without any changes in diet etc ,,,, what we have experienced though , and although we have lost 3 to cushings, we still have 2 long term cases ,,,, one has come completely sound and hasnt had a relapse since her first diabolic episode ,,,, the other , my sons Section A , diagnosed 10yrs ago , has her ups and downs ,,, she is also Ems ,,,, 2 pergolide a day , and 12 Metformin,,,, diet is absolutely paramount in both cases ,,, as said above , no sugars in any form , that includes carrots and apples ,,, also the soya derivative Molglo (sugar) is to be avoided , poor hay , we have also found that some unmolassed chaffs , have alfalfa pellets in them , and whilst some sufferers are able to cope with them , our mare cant ,,,, so if she has chaff , its TS top chop lite ,,,, unmolassed sugar beet is ok ,,in sensible quantities , and we also feed a small amount of bran ,,,,she goes out in the summer when shes sound for 20 mins a day ,,, is exercised in the school,lunged or loose ,, when shes dodgy she has a large yard , and the school to roll and play in ,,,, we have found in the past that the lengthening and shortening of day light hours can also trigger her into an attack,,, also if she gets stressed when the hunt are around ,,,, feet wise now the farrier does her hind feet every 6 weeks ,,, and i file her fronts as and when they need doing ,which can be every 10 days to 2 weeks ,, which means theres no drastic trimming and sudden altering of angles ,,, and farrier checks that ive got it right !!!!! her feet arent pretty but by doing it this way we have managed to keep her more sound for longer ,,,as she would go lame for 3-4 weeks after trimming ,,,, the final thing that we had a problem with was her anual flu jab which gave her the worst attack ever because of her compromised immune system , something to bear in mind for the future ,,,,,, sorry for going on , but just wanted to pass on our experiences
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Post by kateanne0 on Feb 20, 2016 11:08:27 GMT
We have a welsh section C diagnosed with EMS, she has been on Metformin for about 9 months is on soaked hay, minimum 12 hours, a handful of HiFi lite and a small amount of solution mash to hide the metformin in, we also used a small amount of TopSpec Lite balancer. Problem, she has recurrent bouts of footiness and pulses no matter what we do. 2 weeks ago she had a blood test for Cushings score 21.5 and vet advised we try Prascend 1/2 tablet a day to see if it helps. It does appear to have helped in that her feet are cooler and she isn't footy. In fact after the first week I've even been able to take her for a short walk each day which she's really enjoying. I'm now wondering if the Metformin isn't doing anything at all for her (14 tabs x2 per day)? Also she hasn't had Pergolide as another person has used in conjunction with the Metformin, what does the Pergolide do? I've also read that alfalfa can be contra indicated for some ponies with EMS/Cushings as their systems don't tolerate it - any thoughts please? Just done a Google search and Pergolide is Prascend in a tablet form DOH! ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/pergolide#What
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Post by pollycrystal on Feb 20, 2016 12:18:52 GMT
Hi everyone thanks so much for the advice, Yesterday he was so sore, I was seriously worried for his future. The farrier came, and had a look and gave me some advice, I gave him some Bute. Anyway he is so much brighter and more comfortable today, so will see what next few days bring. My usual vet is away on holiday, so I am going to ring him on his return and discuss it, I'm sure there is something else going on.My pony is very nervy, and has to be sedated to get shoes on, so I was glad when his x-rays showed barely any rotation. Obviously if shoes are needed then that's what we'll do, will wait and see.
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Post by kateanne0 on Feb 21, 2016 13:14:22 GMT
Have you tried padding his feet with baby nappies fixed on with vetwrap and gaffer tape? Works a treat to make the pony more comfortable. We've had to do this quite a lot this winter
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Post by pollycrystal on Feb 21, 2016 13:20:47 GMT
Hi my farrier said not to bother supporting his feet as he is on a very deep bed, but what a very good idea, I will definitely bear it in mind for the future( oh do so hope not needed!). He is so much better today so will carry on and wait for vets advice when I can speak to him. Farrier is due to visit next week as well.
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Post by kimyc85 on Feb 21, 2016 15:06:14 GMT
Have you tried freestep at all? I'm no expert, just know it worked wonders on my connie x
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