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Post by lalalaa on Apr 9, 2016 15:18:43 GMT
If you don't like it.. Don't do it? As am Amateur I love competing against all the top people. Surly getting placed around & or beating the top people is better than winning a class out of 3 at a local riding club show?!
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lilyb1
Junior Member
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Post by lilyb1 on Apr 9, 2016 17:00:52 GMT
Not all the time, we are as amateur and home produced as u can get but have qualified for RI the last 2 years  |
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Post by alm701 on Apr 9, 2016 17:15:39 GMT
We are totally HP we have qualified For RIHS Amateurs,Intermediates and Open and PP, I am always very proud, when we compete against the producers and we came 2nd at RIHS last year in the open and 3rd in the PP .!, and also think they are brillant,its there Job, |I do it as my hobby and love it)
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Apr 9, 2016 17:30:36 GMT
We are HP, we qualified RIHS last year on our 2nd attempt by beating ponies with Katy carter, julie t, the Harvey's and subsequently all Q for HOYS last year so it can be done; we didn't contest HOYS qualifiers as we had qualified s4as
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Post by not-a-charity on Apr 9, 2016 17:57:31 GMT
We are totally home produced as well - we do all the ponies ourselves at home around work and school, I'm not a judge or connected to a judge either but we manage to more than hold our own in open classes and both my girls do very well through sheer hard work and determination, don't get me wrong, it's not easy. Both ponies placed at Hoys last year and even reserve champ at RI in open class, however this year we have chosen not to compete in Pretty Polly classes even though we are totally home produced - meaning I can ask for help from a professional at a show if I am busy in another ring with another pony.
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Post by chalky284 on Apr 9, 2016 21:46:20 GMT
I get where you are coming from OP, but are you referring to low level shows and those aimed at amateursvor those with the big qualifiers???
I've been infuriated by turning up to a trailblazer show, which in its own write up states it is a grass roots show, aimed at amateurs who are starting off in the discipline. To find a well known producer on her well known HOYS pony come in and win the class. That is totally pot hunting. However at the larger shows it's fair game.
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Apr 10, 2016 4:44:11 GMT
And do consider it too from another point of view - of those with animals they want to see shown, breeders like me perhaps, who use a producer because they're unable, through time constraints, old age or health reasons, to do it all themselves.
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Post by the showing register on Apr 10, 2016 6:28:31 GMT
An interesting topic and we had a question at the debate about catch rides by professional riders. The voting was interesting 40 % thought it was OK for professionals to take a chance ride with a view to qualifying and 49% thought it was not 10% were not sure. It seems the jury is out on this one.
It seems the biggest gripe is when a horse or pony is campaigned all season and cannot get a ticket and then at the end of the season is ridden at one show by a pro without it ever being in their yard. Many producers wont do this as they feel it diminishes their whole business.
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Post by connemaras123 on Apr 10, 2016 8:09:04 GMT
I'm an amateur and I am torn on this one. On the one hand, I think many producers ride good ponies and they go very well and deserve their place. However, so many times I see all producers up the top end of the line on mediocre ponies or qualifying and imo it just isn't justified. I do have a real gripe about how a pony just isn't getting the places or the tickets, then as if by magic the same pony has a producer on and then it qualifies straight away. It all comes down to the judge in the end and if they are 'fair'.
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Post by mandmgirl0164 on Apr 10, 2016 8:41:15 GMT
And maybe, because of their experience, a producer can get a far better tune out of a horse and show it off far better than the owner/usual rider can - just a thought.
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Post by danichapel on Apr 10, 2016 13:20:45 GMT
I do think on the whole well known faces produces get the tickets above amateurs, I have been in the ring when the pony that went onto win and get the HOYS tickets wrong legged it, ridden by a producer. Last year while at NPS Champs I stood and watched a Picton qualifying class, not many forward, and all went well for novice ponies, bar one, and that was really a novice pony, I was absolutely shocked when it won the class, as were others who were stood watching, but it was ridden by a very well know 'face'
However, I have also been in the ring many times and amateurs have won. I gave up affiliated showing some years ago because I did feel that I was only making up the numbers, had a very correct pony who went well, but the cost of entries together with fuel costs, as I live in rather a 'show desert' left me feeling a bit jaded with the whole showing thing. I do dressage now, which is also a bit hit and miss at times
At the end of the day it is suppose to be fun, but from what I experienced, most were not having fun
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Post by kateanne0 on Apr 10, 2016 14:09:33 GMT
And maybe, because of their experience, a producer can get a far better tune out of a horse and show it off far better than the owner/usual rider can - just a thought. I agree with this point, however, I would vote against producers taking 'catch' rides to get a ticket for someone that has been trying to get a major qualifier but hasn't managed to do it on their own. Unless the horse is on a producer's yard it shouldn't be ridden in a class by a producer. Could there be a rule to prevent this happening? I think this is really a case when a 'face' decision by the judge is out of order and other competitors get disgruntled, especially if the horse is mediocre or messed up in its show, etc. |
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Post by pipandwill on Apr 10, 2016 17:25:12 GMT
Its showing at the end of the day!
Producers do work hard, and you expect their horses to go well as it is their job to do so, however, its not uncommon for an amateur to have the best horse in the ring, and it's unfair to say that they couldn't get the horse to go as nicely as a producer, I know many many unknown amateurs who ride absolutely fantastically, far better than some producers, but they never get rewarded for it.
Alot of amateurs don't get the results they deserve, its a shame some judges, and I stress the word 'some' will judge unfairly and not actually put the best animal at the top of the line.
But to be quite honest, I cant see it changing in the foreseeable future, for as long as us amateurs continue to pay entry fees and make the numbers up, this will still continue!
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Post by gillwales on Apr 10, 2016 17:45:16 GMT
I do think on the whole well known faces produces get the tickets above amateurs, I have been in the ring when the pony that went onto win and get the HOYS tickets wrong legged it, ridden by a producer. Last year while at NPS Champs I stood and watched a Picton qualifying class, not many forward, and all went well for novice ponies, bar one, and that was really a novice pony, I was absolutely shocked when it won the class, as were others who were stood watching, but it was ridden by a very well know 'face' However, I have also been in the ring many times and amateurs have won. I gave up affiliated showing some years ago because I did feel that I was only making up the numbers, had a very correct pony who went well, but the cost of entries together with fuel costs, as I live in rather a 'show desert' left me feeling a bit jaded with the whole showing thing. I do dressage now, which is also a bit hit and miss at times At the end of the day it is suppose to be fun, but from what I experienced, most were not having fun I'm now back on my soap box! There are far worse faults than the incorrect leading leg at canter. Sadly it is a fault that most inexperianced people can see and then shout loudly about it. I can also asuure all of you ringside Judges that the view you get from inside the ring is very different from the ringside. I applaud the OP for not hiding behind a guest name, however this type of post is frequently aired on HG and the answer is the same : if you dont like it then do not do it, very simple. |
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Post by kateanne0 on Apr 10, 2016 18:46:12 GMT
In response to the above, producers earn their living by producing horses and ponies for other people. They spend possibly many more hours schooling the animals so obviously they should be more polished in the show ring. Yes, there are many more faults than an incorrect canter lead and these may not be visible to spectators outside the ring, however, there are many, many, non-professionals that 'know their stuff' regarding physiology and conformational faults, etc., and they are likely to spot theses as well. I have been ringside with professionals and there are occasions when they will spot a bettor animal's way of going and conformation and wonder at the results in the line up So it's not just the amateurs or 'ringside judges' that gripe! At the end of the day, we all, I hope, go showing for an enjoyable day out and take our results as they are on the day under that judge. If a person didn't like that judges decision then they should make sure they don't go under that judge again. There will always be the perennial bad loser, and there isn't much we can do about that, it's their temperament to be that way. The placing of 'faces' will always be a subjective topic, even to other 'faces' so we amateurs/HP families just have to learn to deal with it, smile and hope for a better result next time out |
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Post by silvo on Apr 10, 2016 20:12:57 GMT
I don't pay a producer out of any wish to "cheat". I pay a producer because I have a very nice horse (who was never intended to be a show horse) but neither the skill the knowledge nor the time to show him. He didn't go to the producer's yard and suddenly become fabulous just because they sat on him! It's taken serious work by a huge team of people to produce my horse and I'm really grateful to them. They work all day every day to produce the horses at the very top of their potential and I fail to see how anyone can be surprised that the result of that work is success in the ring. I am an owner because horses are my passion not because I want to buy a rosette. I could buy thousands upon thousands of rosettes for the money I pay to keep that horse!!
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Post by sjw87 on Apr 11, 2016 0:49:32 GMT
It would be interesting to see how a rule of the combination qualifying rather than just the horse would make a difference.
I do not like bashing producers as I know they work very hard and are able to put far more time and effort into the horses in their care than I can with mine around work and other commitments. I completely agree that in a lot of cases, the reason why a horse qualifies with a pro on board when it has been unsuccessful with an amateur is the improved way of going. For that reason, I then find it a shame when the horse is subsequently ridden at rihs or hoys by the original rider as the way of going is not as high as it was on qualifying.
I know that a rule like that would cause issues for those who used a pro as a substitute jockey for genuine reasons (eg. Rider injury or work commitments meaning they've entered a show in advance and then can't get the time off) but I do think it would prevent people sticking a face on board just to get a ticket.
Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Apr 11, 2016 6:05:09 GMT
I don't pay a producer out of any wish to "cheat". I pay a producer because I have a very nice horse (who was never intended to be a show horse) but neither the skill the knowledge nor the time to show him. He didn't go to the producer's yard and suddenly become fabulous just because they sat on him! It's taken serious work by a huge team of people to produce my horse and I'm really grateful to them. They work all day every day to produce the horses at the very top of their potential and I fail to see how anyone can be surprised that the result of that work is success in the ring. I am an owner because horses are my passion not because I want to buy a rosette. I could buy thousands upon thousands of rosettes for the money I pay to keep that horse!! I think you miss the point most people have. The issue isn't with horses kept and produced all season with a producer; that's what they're paid for. The problem is a pro jumping on a horse as it goes in the ring at a show |
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Post by silvo on Apr 11, 2016 13:40:30 GMT
I don't think I have missed the point, the Op seems to have an issue with producers in every aspect of their competing. I understand your point but I don't agree that simply sitting a producer on a horse is a guarantee of a win. I know it isn't. A producer can get a better tune out of a horse but they can't just jump on anything and it'll magically become a world beater. You can't ride better conformation into them and you can't suddenly undo poor schooling just by sitting in the saddle. I see no difference in my paying my producer to look after and ride my horse and anyone else paying her to ride. It's very easy to shout "faciness" and "bent judges" and "fixed" than to say "I need to improve my riding, my horse's schooling and make the best I can of his conformation". We hear the same thing every year.
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Post by kateanne0 on Apr 11, 2016 14:54:37 GMT
I don't think a producer would get on any horse as a catch ride unless it had a fair chance of coming somewhere at the top of the line up, their reputation and livelihood would be at risk.
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Post by catkin on Apr 12, 2016 9:55:29 GMT
I cannot agree with this point on producers and 'catch rides'. We are not judging year-long combinations, but what is seen on the day, in that class. What happens if a genuine HP brings out a pony to one show late in the year, or a relative rides it once. How would you rule on that? So any sort of ruling around this is irrelevant, I think. Yes, I can see that its annoying when producers or 'faces' are often at the top of the line. I can honestly say, that in almost all cases I have observed, this is due to better presentation of the animals in question, so this accounts for the seemingly 'lesser' specimens that do well with producers. That said, I have on occasion seem quite biased judging that can presumably, only be explained by 'faciness'. However, on this point, I do also think that judges sometimes lack confidence. And, perhaps some feel more confident to put up someone they think usually does well. I am by no means excusing this behaviour, but I think this might explain some results. The other point about producers is that they tend to be better equipped to decide which judges will like which animals.
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Post by claired on Apr 12, 2016 10:57:50 GMT
On the other side of the coin, a particular bug bear of mine is horses being competed in amateur classes (eg riding horse / hunter) that are ‘produced’ up until the point where amateur owner arrives at the show and gets on board, having not seen their horse from one week to the next. Its taking the definition of amateur to the limit,. Its not really “amateur” but there is nothing in the rules against this, so its perfectly OK, because the definition in the rule books of an amateur is someone who doesn’t make their living from horses. It says nothing about the horse being ‘amateur’.
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Post by kateanne0 on Apr 14, 2016 15:27:33 GMT
On the amateur hunters/riding horses, a professional person cannot ride the horse in or groom in the ring at a show. The amateur owner has to do that themselves (in theory)! It is a sticky point!
So a horse can be produced by a professional at their yard for the owner. I wouldn't say the owner/rider doesn't see the horse from one week to the next because most horses that are produced are ridden by the jockey at least weekly away from the shows, otherwise, they would never know what makes the horse tick.
This is the difference between home produced totally done by owner/rider/family, it would be nice to see amateur rules the same as HP but I don't think it will happen.
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Post by comanchediva on Apr 14, 2016 18:24:46 GMT
Has anyone else noticed the opening post has been deleted?
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Post by bigmama on Apr 14, 2016 19:20:05 GMT
Has anyone else noticed the opening post has been deleted?  |
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Post by kateanne0 on Apr 14, 2016 20:46:34 GMT
Has anyone else noticed the opening post has been deleted? Well spotted, I hadn't seen it disappear! Wonder why? |
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Post by Philippa on Apr 15, 2016 6:28:45 GMT
Has anyone else noticed the opening post has been deleted? Well spotted, I hadn't seen it disappear! Wonder why? Obviously didn't like the replies.  |
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Post by gillwales on Apr 15, 2016 7:38:30 GMT
we get these posts every year, the only difference about this one was that the OP did at least not post as a guest which is what most people do with this type of trouble stirring post
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Post by mandmfan on Apr 15, 2016 7:46:06 GMT
I don't think I have missed the point, the Op seems to have an issue with producers in every aspect of their competing. I understand your point but I don't agree that simply sitting a producer on a horse is a guarantee of a win. I know it isn't. A producer can get a better tune out of a horse but they can't just jump on anything and it'll magically become a world beater. You can't ride better conformation into them and you can't suddenly undo poor schooling just by sitting in the saddle. I see no difference in my paying my producer to look after and ride my horse and anyone else paying her to ride. It's very easy to shout "faciness" and "bent judges" and "fixed" than to say "I need to improve my riding, my horse's schooling and make the best I can of his conformation". We hear the same thing every year. |
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Post by mandmfan on Apr 15, 2016 7:49:12 GMT
Agree with the statement 'you can not ride conformation into them' but unfortunately I have seen this happen. A poor specimen of a section B (who with owner was never placed), sent to a well known producer and next show, hey presto, qualified for HOYS. A few years ago admittedly.
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