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Post by the showing register on Sept 12, 2016 20:14:43 GMT
Hi Kateanne0 WHW did produce the first draft which you can read on another thread and it is a much stronger worded draft but it seemed to be unworkable for showing although it is going ahead for BD. Its not discrimination as every person of any weight and size can find an animal to suit them.Discrimination as an example is if no one over 5 foot was allowed tò show. Showing is very inclusive with our huge range of heights and types.
What was the reaction of the person you spoke to about unacceptable behaviour ? Did it have a good outcome as I am interested in collecting info on this. Did you think when you spoke to them that you might suffer litigation ?
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Post by katieg14 on Sept 12, 2016 21:16:01 GMT
I haven't read through all the posts on here but just thought I would comment as this relates close to me!
I have always thought it was down to a judge to deduct marks off if they thought the picture wasn't right. As when it comes down to it surely the pony wouldn't be able to go amazingly if the person is too big for the pony as it would be struggling to lift and carry from behind? Also I really can't see there being that much of an issue in the ring with over weight riders! As in most small breed classes I have seen around the circuit there hasn't been anyone I would say is too big and some of the ponies can't be ridden by children as they are stallions or youngsters.
I would say its not the riders and people competing at HOYS and RI level you need to be addressing this too, but its the local level showing and pc where there are people who don't really know anything about the pony they have and who should be riding them! This is where I would see people riding little ponies they grown out of but also they are the ones that would shout me down for riding my 13hh Section B when I am 21years old 5ft5 and about 8.5st but because I'm 21 its not allowed in there eyes! And the only reason we went to a local show was because it was his first ever show and was good show to go to.
The only thing I do agree with is when you see big adults riding small - often SP or SHP's - ponies ready for the children to take in the ring. And when they say how else do you think we are going to get the pony worked in enough ready for the child well the answer is it shouldn't go in the ring! If its not suitable for a child to ride safely in a child's class why is it in it? Yes lung the pony before the child gets on as it may be fresh coming off the lorry but then shouldn't need to be ridden too!
I'm sure there are lots of other more import welfare issues to tackle.
Advisory notes sent out to competitor would be enough then trying to do a rule that can not be enforced easily or at all!
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Concerned competitor
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Post by Concerned competitor on Sept 12, 2016 21:23:10 GMT
It has happened to me this year and I spoke to the child which, after all this consultation, I wish I had not ! It was fine and the child (not that young ) told me about the new pony just arrived as this one was too small so no harm done. I agree it is not a common thing but there is a growing number of adults probably pushing things a bit. In my opinion the child in question was far too young as he was competing in a Hoys junior qualifier with an age limit of 14! I think 14 is far too impressionable of an age to be told you're to tall/big/large for your pony and although the you may have worded this perfectly so the child understood you weren't pointing out a weight issue other judges may not do so eloquently! This whole rule is a minefield for eating disorders amongst our children and it's not long before showing will be branded as encouraging eating disorders in not only our impressionable children but extremely worried adults who love to compete on their animals! I am also very aware of the many types/breeds/heights of horse and pony available for us to compete on however not everybody has the funds to now start again and buy new animals to change for this ruling just at the risk that one judge one week may find them an appropriate size for their animal but another the week after won't! I do agree that their is a huge issue of animals being worked for hours outside the rings by adults way too large for them but the repeat offenders who do this won't be affected by an in ring rule, rather the amateur with less connections is more likely to be the unfortunate target
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Post by kateanne0 on Sept 12, 2016 22:24:44 GMT
Hi Kateanne0 WHW did produce the first draft which you can read on another thread and it is a much stronger worded draft but it seemed to be unworkable for showing although it is going ahead for BD. Its not discrimination as every person of any weight and size can find an animal to suit them.Discrimination as an example is if no one over 5 foot was allowed tò show. Showing is very inclusive with our huge range of heights and types. What was the reaction of the person you spoke to about unacceptable behaviour ? Did it have a good outcome as I am interested in collecting info on this. Did you think when you spoke to them that you might suffer litigation ? The parent responded well. The young handler was running the pony up and down for no rhyme or reason, with excessive use of a whip. The parents took the pony away and put it onto their lorry. I didn't see that pony in the ring for the rest of the day. No I didn't feel there was a threat of litigation in that instance. But we are now becoming a litigious nation! What we are generally talking about on this thread is larger people (sizism). I agree, there are ponies and horses of all sizes to meet everyone's needs but people buy what they like and who are we to say they can't have/ride that animal because of their size? Obviously a 15 stone person on a 12hh show pony would be a welfare issue (in my eyes). But if we have a larger type of person on a cob, who is a light rider, where is the welfare concern? If we have a smaller person who is a heavy rider on a cob, bouncing about unbalanced what are we going to do about that welfare concern? I think all societies will have to be very careful in wording and actions taken on the showground. Unless there is positive proof that there is a welfare issue with that particular combination, I feel societies will be walking on thin ice. I still think this is possibly a type of discrimination and before going any further perhaps some legal advice might be sought?
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Post by the showing register on Sept 13, 2016 5:13:33 GMT
Thanks everyone I am having a few days off so no comments from me until end of the week !
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Post by snowman on Sept 13, 2016 11:50:04 GMT
If the rider can't fit in the saddle that fits the pony, then they are too big IMO
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Sept 13, 2016 12:10:24 GMT
I think that's a bit simplistic, you could have a very short coupled animal who will only take a short saddle, but is a tank of a horse weight, body and bone wise who would be up to more weight, or contrarywise a long backed one who could take a long saddle capable of fitting humans far too heavy for it!
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Post by snowman on Sept 13, 2016 12:14:59 GMT
I see your point SarahP - but I am thinking more towards the small breeds and the smaller plaited ponies.
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Post by kateanne0 on Sept 29, 2016 15:24:36 GMT
Thanks everyone I am having a few days off so no comments from me until end of the week ! Just wondered if there was any further input from TSR?
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Post by the showing register on Sept 29, 2016 17:37:43 GMT
Hi Kateanne0 thanks for the post. I am collecting comments and e mails etc until approx mid November when I will write up a report putting all sides. I genuinely will do this in an honest and open manner so all the posts on here will be included in the whole picture.
If you are at HOYS come and see me on the stand 2YB and have a chat and that goes for anyone else I would be really pleased to talk to you all.
GC
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Post by comanchediva on Sept 29, 2016 19:09:24 GMT
I think that's a bit simplistic, you could have a very short coupled animal who will only take a short saddle, but is a tank of a horse weight, body and bone wise who would be up to more weight, or contrarywise a long backed one who could take a long saddle capable of fitting humans far too heavy for it! Very true! We have one of each of the ponies described in sarahp's post!
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Post by kateanne0 on Sept 30, 2016 10:11:57 GMT
Hi Kateanne0 thanks for the post. I am collecting comments and e mails etc until approx mid November when I will write up a report putting all sides. I genuinely will do this in an honest and open manner so all the posts on here will be included in the whole picture. If you are at HOYS come and see me on the stand 2YB and have a chat and that goes for anyone else I would be really pleased to talk to you all. GC thank you. will not be at HOYS, I am in Switzerland for 3 weeks visiting my son
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Post by gillwales on Sept 30, 2016 20:13:52 GMT
I do think the you should consult with some medical people, especially those involved with eating disorders. TSR would feel very bad if a child ended up going down that road. Native ponies should be able to carry a good amount of weight, that was the purpose of the ponies and this should be remembered.
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Post by chloesmum on Oct 1, 2016 7:42:43 GMT
Really good point gillwales. Perhaps as well that will encourage more 'true to type' natives, particularly in the small breeds where sometimes limb is lacking, or a distinction between an open native to a lead rein or first ridden and now of course junior type!
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Post by honeypot on Oct 1, 2016 8:19:36 GMT
To me its a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I think before anything is done so basic data needs to be collected. Thing like ages of riders, and how many are considered to large, even the terminology is flawed. Are you going to judge on weight, height, whether they look too fat or someone idea of the 'general picture' and remember most of these riders may be children. Its a PR disaster waiting to happen and as a mother I would not to expose my child to a situation where there is a potential to be abused, just because in someone with no professional qualification thinks she is too big for her pony. Very subjective. I work in a school and have attend courses on self harm and safe guarding of children and young people, its never been tougher to be a young women, please read this www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-37504679 Safe guarding is not child protection its about creating a healthy environment for children and young people. I am really concerned where this is heading.
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Post by Philippa on Oct 1, 2016 8:50:36 GMT
I love it when people say if kids ponies can't be worked in by kids they shouldn't go in the ring. Or just lunge them. That's ok but these ponies do need keeping on top of at home too. They don't magically get broken at 4yrs old and need no further education for the rest of their lives. And a 3,4,5,6 yr old child is NOT capable of schooling a pony. And for those of us who don't have the added bonus of a spare, older child to put on, what are we expected to do?? Sell up until we can utilise a mother daughter share???
It needs to be very carefully and realistically worded.
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Post by Philippa on Oct 1, 2016 9:05:24 GMT
To me its a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I think before anything is done so basic data needs to be collected. Thing like ages of riders, and how many are considered to large, even the terminology is floored. Are you going to judge on weight, height, whether they look too fat or someone idea of the 'general picture' and remember most of these riders may be children. Its a PR disaster waiting to happen and as a mother I would not to expose my child to a situation where there is a potential to be abused, just because in someone with no professional qualification thinks she is too big for her pony. Very subjective. I work in a school and have attend courses on self harm and safe guarding of children and young people, its never been tougher to be a young women, please read this www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-37504679 Safe guarding is not child protection its about creating a healthy environment for children and young people. I am really concerned where this is heading. We also work along the safeguarding of children & vulnerable adults. People would be amazed if they sat and read the policies. I'm with you on this. It's dangerous water.
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Post by gillwales on Oct 1, 2016 9:06:52 GMT
Really good point gillwales. Perhaps as well that will encourage more 'true to type' natives, particularly in the small breeds where sometimes limb is lacking, or a distinction between an open native to a lead rein or first ridden and now of course junior type! I realise that l/r and f/r natives are very popular, however this was not the original use of these native ponies. Thought should be given to whether the breeds develop and maybe split into different types or are the breed societies going to try to preserve the origins? Afteral there are the l/r f/r riding ponies to forfil this need; personally I feel that many of the native ponies crept into these classes as they were not true to the original breed type ( I have put my tin hat on here! ) You will often see a sec B or worse a Sec A plaited up and winning a RP or HP foal class at the foal shows; while I can accept this personally in the HP classes if they are of RP type then to my mind then they are not good natives.
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Post by Philippa on Oct 1, 2016 9:14:32 GMT
GW. I agree. I spent the weekend at FO looking for a LR sec A. I saw 2 very nice ponies but bought neither. I looked through my breeding glasses and saw many fantastic ponies that wouldn't have suited the job I was looking for it to do but in its own class as a breed would have been exceptional.
The breed has definately split. I love a mover but sadly for LR & FR they wouldn't be any good. the ponies I like would be more suited to opens.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Oct 1, 2016 11:01:31 GMT
gillwales, I agree with your point re plaited As in RP/HP classes but differ in respect to Bs. This section as it currently stands was originally defined and set up in the 1930s to provide a bigger child's riding pony than the A, with the addition of TB and Eastern bloodlines to the Welsh to give a bigger, finer pony. Thus they could well be entirely suitable as at least HPs. Again, the origins of the RP was native plus Arab and TB so it all really depends on what predominates in any particular pony.
Philippa - What would be wrong with throttling your big mover back to gentle along (I can't think of another word for it that doesn't sound derogatory which is not what's meant) for LR and FR, then letting it show what it can do in the opens? Any ridden pony should be capable of altering its pace when required.
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Post by Philippa on Oct 1, 2016 13:02:57 GMT
Philippa - What would be wrong with throttling your big mover back to gentle along (I can't think of another word for it that doesn't sound derogatory which is not what's meant) for LR and FR, then letting it show what it can do in the opens? Any ridden pony should be capable of altering its pace when required. Because as you say it would need "throttling' back but also they are very different 'types' of ponies in LR & Open classes nowadays. In an ideal world you would be able to do LR/FR, opens & in hand with one pony and be able to win in all classes if the pony is good enough but we live in a far from ideal world. Anyway This is digressing from the topic.
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Post by honeypot on Oct 1, 2016 13:48:24 GMT
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Post by the showing register on Oct 1, 2016 14:15:35 GMT
Good afternoon ! Just to allay any fears about lack of consulting on safeguarding / legal issues this is only a draft and if at any point in the future it became a rule the appropriate qualified professionals would be consulted on the wording and the implementation. Everything that is written as a rule has to pass this test.
Its why I think I favour (if pushed to choose) a mark deduction as having less problems on the above but also less satisfactory to the exhibitor as seen on previous threads about low show marks.
However please dont think I will lead anything towards my own views as I am fully committed to airing all sides and something more satisfactory than the current draft may come out of the debate ( or nothing at all !). I am really enjoying all the arguments and have read well over 500 posts and comments so far across all the media fields.
See you next week ?? Come and talk to me I am on the stand Y2B most of the time 9 to 7
GC
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sarahp
Happy to help
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Post by sarahp on Oct 1, 2016 14:56:21 GMT
Agreed re digression Philippa, but you did only mention movement, nothing else!
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Post by sjw87 on Oct 1, 2016 16:16:45 GMT
Having read the publicised ruling for hoys regarding being 'suitably mounted', I think the way they are going about it is the fairest - any concerns and it is referred to the vet to make a decision who has access to a weighbridge etc and can assess the horse for pain/discomfort. If the vet deems there is a welfare issue, the rider in question cannot remount. If the vet deems it's fine, the rider gets back on and are then able to be judged fairly in the ring.
The problem I can see with judges making a decision and deducting marks in the ring is that it is completely subjective and there is no room for appeal.
Realistically, I think outside of the ring is where this should be policed as either a bigger jockey will be working a pony in for a smaller one to compete or, the jockey who is riding in the ring will be working the horse in so if they are underhorsed, this could be picked up on and investigated before they get to the ring so in theory it shouldn't then be an issue in the ring.
Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards
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Post by gillwales on Oct 1, 2016 19:50:06 GMT
Having read the publicised ruling for hoys regarding being 'suitably mounted', I think the way they are going about it is the fairest - any concerns and it is referred to the vet to make a decision who has access to a weighbridge etc and can assess the horse for pain/discomfort. If the vet deems there is a welfare issue, the rider in question cannot remount. If the vet deems it's fine, the rider gets back on and are then able to be judged fairly in the ring. The problem I can see with judges making a decision and deducting marks in the ring is that it is completely subjective and there is no room for appeal. Realistically, I think outside of the ring is where this should be policed as either a bigger jockey will be working a pony in for a smaller one to compete or, the jockey who is riding in the ring will be working the horse in so if they are underhorsed, this could be picked up on and investigated before they get to the ring so in theory it shouldn't then be an issue in the ring. Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards I think it is unlikely that many shows will have a Vet present due to costs, plus I doubt that any Vets will want to be involved in this matter due to the possibility of litigation. Showing is objective, it always has been and always will be, hence the many debates surrounding it.
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Post by Shocked!!!! on Oct 2, 2016 6:41:10 GMT
I cannot believe what I am reading and I'm truely shocked that any society would use a column on a marksheet regarding overall appearance in relation to whether a judge feels IN THEIR OPINION that a jockey/pony/horse combination doesn't fit in their OPINION what a jockeys weight should be. Why don't you place some scales at the ringside and ask each jockey to stand on them for a weigh in before they enter the ring? Now wouldn't that be humilating for all? No different to what your trying to bring into effect on a piece of paper for all to read. People come in all shapes, sizes and carry their weight differently, a slim tall person could easily carry more weight than a shorter more rounded person, some are top heavy, some with big bottoms & thighs etc. Who are you to decide or your judges whether a person fits the correct picture and blatently mark accordingly for all to see. I'm sure child health welfare organisations would love to hear from you, that your encouraging young people to become concious of their bodies in order to compete their beloved ponies in a showring. Shame on you. What about children / adults who may have a medical problem which causes them to have a weight issue which they already they have to live but they compete a pony/horse who is capable of carrying the weight but in your OPINION the overall picture doesn't suit you? I think you are treading in hot water as there could to be so many aspects to a persons build, health etc that I cannot understand why any judge would want to tell anyone that you've been marked down because in their OPINION your overweight and the overall picture isn't right. Showing is already subjective why on earth would any society bring in a mark sheet regarding a human beings weight, I think most parents and adults alike are already concious about an overall picture but who are you to stand as judge and jury?
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Post by the showing register on Oct 2, 2016 7:39:06 GMT
Hi Shocked Not alone on this one BEF and BSJA and an interesting paragraph from Telegraph today. "The British Equestrian Foundation (BEF) says that in many cases normal sized riders are climbing on to ponies that are proportionally too small for their size. But there have also been a number of cases in which overweight riders have arrived at events on horses clearly labouring under their bulk." I think that covers both our draft rules. We were asked for some quotes for the Telegraph but declined as we feel this is in its consultation stage and we will be including comments such as shocked in our report to be fair to all views. As you are a guest shocked I cant even guess who you are but if you are at HOYS please come and see me we can have a good discussion ! m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=870641793036524&id=242600199174023
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Post by sjw87 on Oct 2, 2016 8:17:13 GMT
I think it is unlikely that many shows will have a Vet present due to costs, plus I doubt that any Vets will want to be involved in this matter due to the possibility of litigation. Showing is objective, it always has been and always will be, hence the many debates surrounding it. I presume you meant 'subjective'? Yes, showing is subjective but if the purpose of any ruling regarding weight/size of jockey is genuinely for welfare purposes rather than just what is most pleasing to the eye then it has to be dealt with objectively. People's interpretations as to what constitutes a welfare issue can vary greatly - if this issue is left solely to personal opinion then it runs the risk of turning showing into a beauty pageant. If any potential issues were investigated outside of the ring, the judge could then judge fairly in the knowledge that any combinations not so pleasing to the eye have been cleared as not being a welfare issue. Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards
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Post by kateanne0 on Oct 2, 2016 9:33:19 GMT
Having read the publicised ruling for hoys regarding being 'suitably mounted', I think the way they are going about it is the fairest - any concerns and it is referred to the vet to make a decision who has access to a weighbridge etc and can assess the horse for pain/discomfort. If the vet deems there is a welfare issue, the rider in question cannot remount. If the vet deems it's fine, the rider gets back on and are then able to be judged fairly in the ring. The problem I can see with judges making a decision and deducting marks in the ring is that it is completely subjective and there is no room for appeal. Realistically, I think outside of the ring is where this should be policed as either a bigger jockey will be working a pony in for a smaller one to compete or, the jockey who is riding in the ring will be working the horse in so if they are underhorsed, this could be picked up on and investigated before they get to the ring so in theory it shouldn't then be an issue in the ring. Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards Have you got a link to the ruling please?
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