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Post by monsoon on Oct 12, 2016 21:42:21 GMT
Research expert, well said.
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Post by Reseach Expert on Oct 13, 2016 6:04:15 GMT
Here you go TSR something to get your teeth into, a solution to heavier/taller horse riders - lets open the M&M classes up to these guys - soon everyone will want one as it would be a easy route in the beginning to hoys and studs would then breed prolifically to cater for the new market demand and you can say you have had a hand in helping the regeneration of an endangered species - I am sure competitors would have a lot more respect for TSR if they involved themselves in this type of welfare rather than monitoring if a competitor is an inch or pound over height/weight. This is what I would call a real equine issue. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/03/britains-oldest-horse-breed-in-battle-for-survival/
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Post by chloesmum on Oct 13, 2016 7:54:37 GMT
I have tried to stay out of commenting on here (obvious reasons!) but having read Research Expert and some others I do agree with many of their points. Of course there are many real welfare issues in the horse world (not just showing) and to be fair to TSR they cannot tackle them all on their own. One of my concerns over the 'suitably mounted' ruling not being properly and carefully introduced (if it needs to be) is that it will make some of these other issues worse. Most of us who have been around in showing for a long time are not naive to what goes on as Research Expert has documented by some of the more unscrupulous in our community or those who have little knowledge and think this is how you get a pony to win. In our row at HOYS this week I went to borrow a bucket outside a stable to top our ponies water up and when I put it back I noticed it had no water bucket in the stable, it was late at night and in the morning still no bucket. As for the drug situation I can see that increasing if ponies are restricted in working in, I jokingly said at the weekend I am going to buy shares in Companies that produce calmers! I have also witnessed first hand the effects of young ponies on steroids (not ours I add but a close friends) and have to agree these things are far more serious than a tall, lightweight adult who rides lightly riding in a pony for a SHORT period of time. I stress short as again I would agree that to see an adult on a childs pony for hours and hours is a welfare issue. It was encouraging to hear TSR say that both M&M judges felt there was no one who was too big on their pony, this was my point at the start of all this leave the competing in the ring issue to the judges, they are there to judge way of going and overall picture and use their wealth of knowledge of breed type. As for outside the ring, yes I do think there needs to be some guidelines but what and how this is managed needs all the societies to come together and support with a Code of Practice or something like that.
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Post by hmmm on Oct 13, 2016 10:25:44 GMT
Oh it's all making me so cross.
The only thing this debate is achieving is to maintain TSR (a new organisation with no history in the breeding of small M&Ms, riding ponies, or others that seem to be central to the debate) in the spotlight.
I could write a book on the abuses I've seen over the years. Horses tied in to tack for days at a time, water deprivation, use of gut-rotting drugs that are not routinely tested for and that are known to have caused the premature death of a number of horses from one particular yard.
The first question on the survey is ridiculous and will no doubt be used to demonstrate that something close to 100% of respondents 'agree'. It's as stupid as asking whether you think all competitors should be well turned out. Of course they should. Of course they should be suitably mounted. It's a given. No-one goes in to the ring thinking they are UNsuitably mounted. No judge, competitor, producer, or anyone else involved thinks a rider shouldn't be suitably mounted, any more than they think a combination shouldn't be well turned out. 'Suitably mounted' is as open to interpretation and subjective judgement as 'well turned out'. You say you have to ask direct questions to get at the issue. So do that. The question you've asked serves no purpose other than to ensure that TSR is being talked about.
The water deprivation thing is heartbreaking and really widespread. We are all up in arms when we see a tethered pony with no water and yet it goes on all around us all the time in showing. It should be made explicitly against the rules of all overnight shows, just in the same way that it is against the rules to keep a pony on the lorry all night. Simple to enforce and completely uncontroversial in that it is already set in statute in the Animal Act. But then there would be no need for everyone to be talking about TSR, would there???
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Post by bigmama on Oct 13, 2016 10:40:39 GMT
Research expert, your story of upset child at Hoys wanting mother to get on pony leads me to ask the following questions:
1. Is that pony suitable for that child?
2. Has that pony and/or child ever competed in evening performances at a lower level to give it experience of an indoors atmosphere? In fact, have they ever built up a rapport at lower-key shows such as Riding Club, one-day championships or Pony Club?
3. Would that child benefit from having a different type of pony to promote its confidence?
There is so much to be gained from learning the ropes with a novice, nervous or new rider/pony combination at local level. This is how the old school competitor did it but with so many people hot on the Hoys trail and ditching lesser shows, there are so many riding clubs and one day shows folding due to lack of numbers leaving those of us who value their use nowhere to take our babies
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Post by kateanne0 on Oct 13, 2016 10:43:05 GMT
Oh it's all making me so cross. The only thing this debate is achieving is to maintain TSR (a new organisation with no history in the breeding of small M&Ms, riding ponies, or others that seem to be central to the debate) in the spotlight. I could write a book on the abuses I've seen over the years. Horses tied in to tack for days at a time, water deprivation, use of gut-rotting drugs that are not routinely tested for and that are known to have caused the premature death of a number of horses from one particular yard. The first question on the survey is ridiculous and will no doubt be used to demonstrate that something close to 100% of respondents 'agree'. It's as stupid as asking whether you think all competitors should be well turned out. Of course they should. Of course they should be suitably mounted. It's a given. No-one goes in to the ring thinking they are UNsuitably mounted. No judge, competitor, producer, or anyone else involved thinks a rider shouldn't be suitably mounted, any more than they think a combination shouldn't be well turned out. 'Suitably mounted' is as open to interpretation and subjective judgement as 'well turned out'. You say you have to ask direct questions to get at the issue. So do that. The question you've asked serves no purpose other than to ensure that TSR is being talked about. The water deprivation thing is heartbreaking and really widespread. We are all up in arms when we see a tethered pony with no water and yet it goes on all around us all the time in showing. It should be made explicitly against the rules of all overnight shows, just in the same way that it is against the rules to keep a pony on the lorry all night. Simple to enforce and completely uncontroversial in that it is already set in statute in the Animal Act. But then there would be no need for everyone to be talking about TSR, would there??? This is a genuine question and no slight on poster or others who have mentioned the abuses- We all have to stand up and fight for these poor ponies and shouldn't be ashamed or afraid to do so. If the water deprivation is so widespread and seen by other competitors, why haven't they been reported? Or, if they have been reported what has happened to the offenders? Maybe it's time for the overnight stables to be checked every couple of hours, maybe it should also include lorries! I have heard of the cutting of mouths I'd like to think the offender could have the same treatment! What a sad, sad, world we live in.
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Post by the showing register on Oct 13, 2016 11:34:29 GMT
Hmmm love your post and totally agree, I would very much welcome BSPS, all The Breed Societies, NPS and societies from other disciplines to wade in here. I don't think that weight/height issue should be considered as a massive welfare problem, I would be grateful to understand where this 'welfare problem' has originated from or has it been self made by TSR - I have listed below what I consider to be greater welfare problems but TSR doesn't seem to want to tackle the list below - I wonder why? The lengths people go to win a piece of red ribbon: The vertebrae that are damaged from being stood in tack all day tied in, this causes arthritis and muscle fibrosis - irreparable and painful damage Equines locked in a dark stable most of their lives seeing nothing so they 'pop' when taken into the in hand ring Isolation as they are too precious monetarily to turn out or talk to another equine - these are social animals Withholding water and tied up all night to flatten them for their class Non equine drugs such as cow sedatives and Ritalin administered in the attempt to get past the drug testers - not that we have seen much in evidence of drug testing except at the BSPS major competitions Mouths cut and damaged deliberately to ensure the head never comes above the bridle Obesity has improved but still has a long way to go Steroids to give a 4 year old that plumped up look so they can compete at HOYS and not look immature Feeding arsenic to create a shinny coat And we wonder why most show animals are finished by the age of 10 and some at worst die prematurely The above in my opinion is far more horrific than the weight/height vs size of equine. And just to finish Firstly, whilst we were at hoys working in we overheard a child on their pony in the Topspec arena tearfully begging their mother to get on the said pony as the pony was very lively and the child was scared, the mother refused and gave the child the reason which was this draft ruling - do you think that this child and family enjoyed showing at hoys? The mother was not too heavy but was a little tall for the pony - so what, she was not going to cause distress to the said pony by riding it but distress was caused by her not riding it as the pony was clearly looking for competent direction and reassurance. Secondly, the M&M classes - 2 very well respected knowledgeable international judges - look at the placings - it speaks volumes - TSR stop trying to control judges opinions by forcing through a ridiculous ruling under the pretext of welfare Just got round to catching up with this. Thanks for all the comments and I am sure your thoughts will be passed on. I am not trying to control anyone all of this came from a question sent in by several people to our 1st debate about rider weights. It has grown from there and nothing that is decided or not will be my decision. I am happy to do another survey with whatever questions you would like but I would need to know who you are first. I can assure you that the spotlight is not a natural home for me as my friends will testify but I have agreed to see this through till the 4th when I think everyone will have had a chance to comment.
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Oct 13, 2016 12:13:52 GMT
I think the drugs/steriod abuse in the showing world is the elephant in the room
Our friend brought a quite a sucessful show pony later on his career, within 8 months of competing at HOYS the pony was put down, the vets words where "such a shame you where to young to die, the desperation for a red rossette".
Ponies tied up all night no food or water before a height cert.
Like i've said this a vendetta against adults riding small breeds not about welfare of animals... otherwise stewards wouldn't stand by and let ponies get worked in horse hours by an adult
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Post by bigmama on Oct 13, 2016 12:49:47 GMT
hmmm, you say, "No-one goes in to the ring thinking they are UNsuitably mounted."
Oh really? Is everybody so pure in mind? Not according to the rest of your post about other cruelties
Some people will ride any size of pony if it means they can get into the Hoys ring and they don't care if they are underhorsed. If they don't think that they are underhorsed but they very obviously are, surely someone needs to have the courage to tell them so? For as long as everyone turns a blind eye, it will get worse. although I can guarantee you will not see Bigmama astride a small breed!
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Post by hmmm on Oct 13, 2016 13:11:05 GMT
hmmm, you say, "No-one goes in to the ring thinking they are UNsuitably mounted."
Oh really? Is everybody so pure in mind? Not according to the rest of your post about other cruelties
Some people will ride any size of pony if it means they can get into the Hoys ring and they don't care if they are underhorsed. If they don't think that they are underhorsed but they very obviously are, surely someone needs to have the courage to tell them so? For as long as everyone turns a blind eye, it will get worse. although I can guarantee you will not see Bigmama astride a small breed! Sorry, I was getting at the fact that I don't think the first question is a very good one, because everyone will say yes, regardless of what they may actually do in reality. I could have expressed that better.
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Post by hmmm on Oct 13, 2016 13:20:24 GMT
Oh it's all making me so cross. The only thing this debate is achieving is to maintain TSR (a new organisation with no history in the breeding of small M&Ms, riding ponies, or others that seem to be central to the debate) in the spotlight. I could write a book on the abuses I've seen over the years. Horses tied in to tack for days at a time, water deprivation, use of gut-rotting drugs that are not routinely tested for and that are known to have caused the premature death of a number of horses from one particular yard. The first question on the survey is ridiculous and will no doubt be used to demonstrate that something close to 100% of respondents 'agree'. It's as stupid as asking whether you think all competitors should be well turned out. Of course they should. Of course they should be suitably mounted. It's a given. No-one goes in to the ring thinking they are UNsuitably mounted. No judge, competitor, producer, or anyone else involved thinks a rider shouldn't be suitably mounted, any more than they think a combination shouldn't be well turned out. 'Suitably mounted' is as open to interpretation and subjective judgement as 'well turned out'. You say you have to ask direct questions to get at the issue. So do that. The question you've asked serves no purpose other than to ensure that TSR is being talked about. The water deprivation thing is heartbreaking and really widespread. We are all up in arms when we see a tethered pony with no water and yet it goes on all around us all the time in showing. It should be made explicitly against the rules of all overnight shows, just in the same way that it is against the rules to keep a pony on the lorry all night. Simple to enforce and completely uncontroversial in that it is already set in statute in the Animal Act. But then there would be no need for everyone to be talking about TSR, would there??? This is a genuine question and no slight on poster or others who have mentioned the abuses- We all have to stand up and fight for these poor ponies and shouldn't be ashamed or afraid to do so. If the water deprivation is so widespread and seen by other competitors, why haven't they been reported? Or, if they have been reported what has happened to the offenders? Maybe it's time for the overnight stables to be checked every couple of hours, maybe it should also include lorries! I have heard of the cutting of mouths I'd like to think the offender could have the same treatment! What a sad, sad, world we live in. KateAnne, it's really difficult to report. Report to whom? I did write to a number of showing societies and got very bland responses. With the water thing and tying ponies up all night unless there is someone to report to at the time then it's just heresay and your word against someone else's and the someone else claims you have a vendetta against them and it's all untrue. What do you do? I think this is something much worse than the weight issue and much easier to monitor and remedy.
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Post by Clobo121082 NLI on Oct 13, 2016 13:34:54 GMT
Sorry Bigmama I don't believe you would be qualifying for HOYS if you aren't correct on your horse/pony. Having the small breeds cut this year as well meant it was an even harder challenge to get a ticket.
Again it depends what you mean by 'underhorsed' but I assume we are talking about the issue of welfare here and I honestly don't think a HOYS judge will be qualifying someone who is a welfare issue on their pony/horse
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Post by kateanne0 on Oct 13, 2016 13:35:37 GMT
This is a genuine question and no slight on poster or others who have mentioned the abuses- We all have to stand up and fight for these poor ponies and shouldn't be ashamed or afraid to do so. If the water deprivation is so widespread and seen by other competitors, why haven't they been reported? Or, if they have been reported what has happened to the offenders? Maybe it's time for the overnight stables to be checked every couple of hours, maybe it should also include lorries! I have heard of the cutting of mouths I'd like to think the offender could have the same treatment! What a sad, sad, world we live in. KateAnne, it's really difficult to report. Report to whom? I did write to a number of showing societies and got very bland responses. With the water thing and tying ponies up all night unless there is someone to report to at the time then it's just heresay and your word against someone else's and the someone else claims you have a vendetta against them and it's all untrue. What do you do? I think this is something much worse than the weight issue and much easier to monitor and remedy. Usually on overnight stabling there is some sort of security? I think I would report the issue to security, take photo's and the stable number and address the issue with the stable manager / show organisers as soon as possible. Also report to the Showing Society with evidence to back a statement up. Unless people start to be pro active, these issues will continue. Perhaps the security guards should walk the stable areas? I would presume that thy do to ensure the horses are safe? Deprivation of water is a serious welfare issue as are all of the heinous points mentioned above by Research Expert. Also, as in dressage and show jumping and I presume eventing, there is a check on the horse after competing; maybe showing ought to introduce this as well, overuse of spurs, blood from mouth etc. Time to get really tough and catch the monsters out there
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Post by showpony7632 on Oct 18, 2016 12:24:21 GMT
Whatever happened to moving on to a bigger pony when child outgrown the current one? Surely those who are concerned about a child developing eating disorders can see that there is another option, ie. larger pony .. this is what folk did in yesteryear I agree, this should be the case, but due to the recession, nobody wants to be buying pony after pony every year! It is so difficult to sell them at the moment, so in order to keep these smaller ponies fit and healthy, the older children ride them and show them. And I think we would all prefer a pony to be healthy than to be left in a field to get laminitis (Which is true in some cases) just because the rider is a tiny bit to big for it!!
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Post by gillwales on Oct 18, 2016 12:39:44 GMT
Whatever happened to moving on to a bigger pony when child outgrown the current one? Surely those who are concerned about a child developing eating disorders can see that there is another option, ie. larger pony .. this is what folk did in yesteryear I agree, this should be the case, but due to the recession, nobody wants to be buying pony after pony every year! It is so difficult to sell them at the moment, so in order to keep these smaller ponies fit and healthy, the older children ride them and show them. And I think we would all prefer a pony to be healthy than to be left in a field to get laminitis (Which is true in some cases) just because the rider is a tiny bit to big for it!! This is one of the reasons I think that the age limit should be scraped, then parents would buy the size their child required rather than worrying about the age limits. It is not working at the moment, the classes that are being well supported are those without age limits and I do not think that concentrating on the weight of the riser will help; it is only going to increase preasure on shildren to be stick thin which is no more healthy then being underweight.
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Post by bigmama on Oct 18, 2016 13:23:00 GMT
Whatever happened to moving on to a bigger pony when child outgrown the current one? Surely those who are concerned about a child developing eating disorders can see that there is another option, ie. larger pony .. this is what folk did in yesteryear I agree, this should be the case, but due to the recession, nobody wants to be buying pony after pony every year! It is so difficult to sell them at the moment, so in order to keep these smaller ponies fit and healthy, the older children ride them and show them. And I think we would all prefer a pony to be healthy than to be left in a field to get laminitis (Which is true in some cases) just because the rider is a tiny bit to big for it!! The way I read it, this debate is not about riders who are "a tiny bit big for it".
Children do not often grow out of a pony in one year as most people buy a pony that is big enough to allow a child a couple of years with it at least.
In general, ponies sell for far more money these days than they did when my now grown up daughter was a kiddie so I think the money thing is relative and more people can afford to keep a pony now than when I was a kid.
If ponies were realistically priced then they would probably sell more quickly but there are currently very many ordinary ponies for sale with huge price tags attached
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Post by sjw87 on Oct 18, 2016 13:40:52 GMT
This is one of the reasons I think that the age limit should be scraped, then parents would buy the size their child required rather than worrying about the age limits. It is not working at the moment, the classes that are being well supported are those without age limits and I do not think that concentrating on the weight of the riser will help; it is only going to increase preasure on shildren to be stick thin which is no more healthy then being underweight. Absolutely agree 100% - I don't believe it's a coincidence that the m&m and coloured classes are now so well supported as these have no age limit (except obviously age restricted finals etc). We often hear of cases where a young jockey will just get the hang of a pony and then be out of the class by age. They then have to move on to a bigger pony whether ready or not. As I've said before, if the horse/pony is being ridden by someone heavy enough to be a genuine welfare issue then I would expect their performance to be negatively affected and therefore marked accordingly anyway. Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards
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Post by monsoon on Oct 18, 2016 18:41:20 GMT
I have sold a pony recently for half what his value would have been 2 yrs ago, we sold unbroken ponies for a lot more then. I have a 12 hands 6 yrs, to be top working hunter pony, home bred, well schooled,,honest jump, related to hoys and bsja ponies and 2 Olympia champions, and am asking £650, not what I call excessive at all, and sales prices for some ponies have been down considerably. Our pony needs to be out competing, seriously thinking about putting her through a sale, what else to do. Think the weight issue is putting people off, especially if a small adult who is capable of bringing on Novice ponies is riding.
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Post by MrsShowing on Oct 29, 2016 23:02:33 GMT
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Post by the showing register on Oct 30, 2016 14:59:17 GMT
Very interesting thanks for the link.It settled on 20 % including saddle and clothing the RoR have just made public a rule for 2017 competition and the racehorse fraternity are going with 17% inc saddle.
The Fell people tell me a Fell can carry a pack of 16 stone but we dont know what it can carry at canter on a circle.
Tony Tyler WHW offered the view that a set amount may never be decided as so many variables come into play... ability of rider, air temperature, going underfoot, length of time of the exercise period etc. He said at the SC conference that if it looks wrong it probably is. Please note his words not mine !!
Please send in any questions for the debate we have 3 fantastic panels stuffed with knowledgable judges , exhibitors , show organizers and welfare experts. All sides of the debate will be covered ... 4th December at Stoneleigh lots of audience participation.
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Post by sjw87 on Oct 30, 2016 19:31:06 GMT
Unfortunately I can't be there on the 4th but I hope that those who are able to attend speak up and make their opinion known.
Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards
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Post by the showing register on Oct 31, 2016 12:47:35 GMT
Unfortunately I can't be there on the 4th but I hope that those who are able to attend speak up and make their opinion known. Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards I so agree come and say what you think. No recriminations, no blacklisting just honest debate.
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please TSR try and clean it up
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Post by please TSR try and clean it up on Oct 31, 2016 13:39:57 GMT
i take my hat off to TSR at least they are trying to do something - this year has been the worst and when you write to some societies they say "nothing to do with us not our classes" but its your judges they are on your panel so why oh why cant something be done you just have to look at social media with judges , exhibitors all either on Holiday with each other or very very publicity going out together , then in the next breath the show under each other, they might have the best ponies and that why they win but it does leave a very sour taste in ones mouth
and dont get me started on "sponsored" riders judging each other are they not employed by the same person so how can they judge each other
so TSR keep going am so glad you are trying to be transparent other societies please do start to take notice and do not pass the buck rant over
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janet
Full Member
Posts: 502
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Post by janet on Oct 31, 2016 14:35:39 GMT
If I was at a show and saw late at night a pony had no water in its stable I would give it some , why wouldn't you?, the offender won't report you will they !! They should thank you
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Post by gillwales on Jan 24, 2017 19:57:07 GMT
I think there should be a mark for suitability of the horse or pony for the rider, this would not just be about the size of the horse / pony / rider. It could also be used to give a mark for the control of the horse / pony, i.e. you might consider that the rider is novice yet is the pony was quiet it would then be suitable for it's rider, however if sharper then it would be given a lower mark. This way there would be no need for weights etc, it would be down to the judges' opinions on that day. I think this is a far fairer way of dealing with any problems.
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Post by the showing register on Jan 25, 2017 11:34:46 GMT
An update on what is happening with TSR we are now consulting on best welfare practice for exhibitors and show officials ie is it OK to leave an animal tied up all night ? How should show officials approach a welfare problem ?
PLUS
All classes that are not HOYS qualifiers or have other specific society restrictions will now say
'Rider must be suitably mounted'
How judges interpret this is up to each individual
We have taken note of the general welfare issues and this wording is now in our handbook
Welfare I. All exhibitors/TSR Members must as a priority consider the welfare of their horses and ponies at all times. Any person who's actions are considered to be compromising the welfare of a horse or pony will be offered advice by the designated official. Failure to heed the advice could result in the person/s being asked to withdraw from the show. Abuse to the show officials will not be tolerated and any person who becomes abusive will be disqualified from the show. II. No person shall ill treat animals at any time whether misuse/ excessive use of a whip, bit, spurs or any item of saddlery or in any other way whatsoever
THE BSPS have added 'pony suitable to be ridden by etc etc '
As always comments welcome
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Post by litigation on Jan 26, 2017 12:15:28 GMT
may i ask who is going to give training to 'the designated official' under whose umbrella ? and who is providing insurance cover ? for any litigation proceedings that may ensue
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Post by the showing register on Jan 27, 2017 19:47:09 GMT
At the TSR own shows the designated official will be either a BHS Welfare Officer, a vet or an official who has received training from one of the recognized welfare societies. You should note that it is only offering advice. We have insurance cover for this and we are in the process of putting together the best practice guidelines.
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Post by gillwales on Jan 27, 2017 20:36:40 GMT
may i ask who is going to give training to 'the designated official' under whose umbrella ? and who is providing insurance cover ? for any litigation proceedings that may ensue What litigation? The first rule of nearly all shows is "The Judge's opinion is final" . If it went to court I doubt any judge would find in favour of any claim. However I know that the BSPS has third party liability insurence that covers Judge's up to the age of 65. Or it did have when I judged.
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Post by TheGrammarPolice on Jan 27, 2017 23:04:50 GMT
Any person who's actions are considered to be compromising the welfare of a horse or pony will be offered advice by the designated official.
Can we at least try to get our spelling correct, TSR, if we want to be taken seriously?
'Who's' is an abbreviation of 'who is'. The spelling in the ruling above should be 'whose' = belonging to.
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