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Post by cmnli on Nov 10, 2016 14:06:38 GMT
Not wanting to take this subject more 'off track' and I can understand where ponymum is coming from in terms of judges conferring but not sure that this is an integrity issue but more one of choice. I am not a judge but do steward a lot and some judges do not like conferring but many do, for reasons that Caroline mentioned. I think this should be about the personal choice of judges and many do like to pull in together. There have been a couple of occassions where judges have told me that they have felt their co-judge 'stitched them up' by deliberately under marking ponies they have said they liked, to ensure their chosen one wins. This is where integrity comes into play and judges should feel able to voice their concerns, a couple that I know off have said it has made them very wary of who they co-judge with or put them off co-judging at all which is not good news as these are the honest judges. We must remember judges give their time and experience for our benefit we have already forced the points system on them (apart from BSHA) and to make more restrictions in terms of not being able to confer and discuss I think is not necessary, what is necessary is the ability of judges and competitors being able to question or raise concerns of dubious behaviour without fear of recrimination.
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Post by 2connies on Nov 10, 2016 19:39:17 GMT
Yes , this is slightly off track , BUT this secnario happens time and time again. Bigmama - NO , I disagree, The performance section of the show is that and that alone! The conf judge awards the marks for type and should have the correct knowlede of breed type etc ! what does it matter in what order the horses are lined up? The marks are there to select the winner.A pony with perfect conf and a fabulous show will come up no matter what - surely? Caroline Nelson - Exactly! The marks are divided 50/50 so each judge has enough of a say within the marks to produce their winner (why should they discuss it prior to judging? You cannot tell on the go round if a pony is back at the knee has curbs and its feathers arent silky!) I feel that sometimes the go round is overlooked , for example, at a county show last year a pony that Bolted in the go round was still in the top 4! Can you explain this from a judges point of view? Eta - I am not saying the conf judge shouldnt watch the go round , but I just think they should each be seperate so they can judge what they see infront of them without any influence from each other. Perhaps a question we can put to this debate is - " What is the importance of both judges conferring on the class during the go round?" And another which I have suggested - Should we have appointed stewards who observe the Hoys qualifiers and if they feel an error of judgement has been made by the judge , they have the authority to intervene ? I have to agree with your comments regarding both judges conferring on the go round....they do need to be judging seperately and independently the ride and conformation sections..It may not be perfect but it's the fairer way imho. Otherwise,if they are going to confer they may as well judge the whole class jointly.
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Post by the showing register on Nov 10, 2016 21:06:38 GMT
Yes , this is slightly off track , BUT this secnario happens time and time again. Bigmama - NO , I disagree, The performance section of the show is that and that alone! The conf judge awards the marks for type and should have the correct knowlede of breed type etc ! what does it matter in what order the horses are lined up? The marks are there to select the winner.A pony with perfect conf and a fabulous show will come up no matter what - surely? Caroline Nelson - Exactly! The marks are divided 50/50 so each judge has enough of a say within the marks to produce their winner (why should they discuss it prior to judging? You cannot tell on the go round if a pony is back at the knee has curbs and its feathers arent silky!) I feel that sometimes the go round is overlooked , for example, at a county show last year a pony that Bolted in the go round was still in the top 4! Can you explain this from a judges point of view? Eta - I am not saying the conf judge shouldnt watch the go round , but I just think they should each be seperate so they can judge what they see infront of them without any influence from each other. Perhaps a question we can put to this debate is - " What is the importance of both judges conferring on the class during the go round?" And another which I have suggested - Should we have appointed stewards who observe the Hoys qualifiers and if they feel an error of judgement has been made by the judge , they have the authority to intervene ? Caroline Nelson phrased exactly my thoughts, ie. "way of going within Breed Type" and yes, performance has also to be dependant upon conformation and type within the breed ... sjw87 has also worded far better than me For as long as folk try to box and label subjective judging, they will always be at odds with showing and may be better finding a more clear-cut equestrian discipline. I cannot foresee any major changes in the near future as there are too many 'in' people deeply entrenched in the system who will fight to keep it as it is. However, the issue of integrity is very interesting and I look forward to hearing how it is discussed @ TSR Showing Debate in December. As far as I can see, the only way for fair judging is for those lacking integrity NOT to be asked to judge any major qualifiers or for competitors to vote with their feet and stay away from those qualifiers they feel will not be to their liking. I think it will be interesting as well! I hope lots of people turn out for it. Sandy Anderson (HOYS) will be opening the debate on integrity alongside Seb Garner, Debbie Spears, David Ingle and Julian Quiney.
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Post by the showing register on Nov 10, 2016 21:15:30 GMT
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Post by chloesmum on Nov 11, 2016 9:45:42 GMT
Looks interesting. Just to add to the integrity issue as Bigmama said and I quote the dictionary definition: Integrity is being honest and having strong moral principles it is a personality trait so as said before you either have it or you don't!!! An interesting more modern definition I found was this: 'internal consistency and lack of corruption' and this got me thinking that this is perhaps what we are really going on about but often don't openly say 'corruption'. Again dictionary definition: Corruption is' dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery'. I would like to see the integrity issue look at how we can ensure internal consistency and deal with corruption (dishonest behaviour) problem of course is that often it is perceived and not actual and that is where showing gets a bad name. Perhaps this is where judges personal integrity does come into play - not to put themselves in a position where their personal integrity is brought into question although again this is very hard when many people add 2 and 2 together and make 5! No answers but I am sure it will make for a good debate. Just to add to the question of Should Judges not compete in the same classes they judge, as a show secretary who often struggles to get judges I would not like to see this as a blanket ban. Perhaps for HOYS finals and HOYS qualifiers yes but not for normal classes throughout the year, otherwise this would seriously limit judges available and also new judges gaining experience.
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Post by conniegirl on Nov 11, 2016 11:55:53 GMT
In regards to judges/producers/competitors socialising together and throwing parties and inviting X Y Z, if they are actual friends why do said partie only seem to fall in the show season surely if they are you friends and you want a get together the winter time is when you'd expect it? i know some judges etc still do socialise during the winter but there are some well timed get together during the summer Conformation does affect way of going, an incorrect pony will not go aswell so the mark would reflect it but type is often personal preference Shouldnt matter when the party is, if you are close enough friends to be invited to a birthday party, wedding or any other personal party then you should not be judging them!
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Post by hopefull on Nov 11, 2016 14:44:53 GMT
Afternoon i really hope this does bring stuff out into the open 1 pony who took a "doggy" ticket ended up 3 rd at HOYS this pony did not do a HOYS qualifier before of after this show - don't you feel sorry for the honest peeps who travelled
also as has been said IF the societies stop these judges judging the HOYS classes it would be a start as these types just want to do the "Big " ones all it needs is for 1 or 2 of the known judges who skate on thin ice to be made a example of and just watch how that would have a effect - maybe i am looking through Rose tinted glasses but it would be a start
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Post by the showing register on Nov 11, 2016 15:10:43 GMT
Well lets hope plenty of people turn up ! Get booked in info@theshowingregister.co.uk or message me
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Post by blagdon01 on Dec 3, 2016 20:04:18 GMT
Mut agree with Caroline Nelsons comments re judalso as regards judging friends and acquaintances those judges on the panels of the smaller M&M breed societies would find it very difficult not to do so
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Post by blagdon01 on Dec 3, 2016 20:09:09 GMT
Oh dear must read before sending should read Must agree with Caroline Nelsons comments re judges conferring also regarding judging friends and acquaintances those judges on the panels of the smaller M&M breed societies would find it very difficult not to do so.
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