|
Post by Why on Jul 12, 2017 21:26:22 GMT
Why do adults ride what should be childrens ponies? Why do we have them riding Dartmoors Section A's etc? Surely these are childrens riding ponies? Big, tall sometimes overweight adults. I know theres a crackdown on overweight riders (Yorkshire Show) Not being rude or anything its just a genuine question.
|
|
|
Post by Carrots&Mints on Jul 13, 2017 6:11:04 GMT
This subject has been done to death!!!
|
|
|
Post by grandfleur on Jul 13, 2017 7:13:32 GMT
Completely agree about the overweight part, but suitably sized teens/adults working in ponies seems fairly acceptable as the bottom line is the majority of children are not capable of properly schooling a pony, especially a hot show pony. Take fr/lr for eg, a child between 3-10yo is unlikely to be able to set up a pony to the standard we now see on the county level circuit, wether it be a section A, Dartmoor or show pony. Sadly you're right in this defeating the point of having a 'child's pony', but this is the way the sport seems to have developed, and I know if I was a parent I'd rather have an older child on my pony beforehand than send my child in the ring on something fresh with its head in the air. I suppose everyone will have different opinions!
|
|
|
Post by chloesmum on Jul 13, 2017 8:03:00 GMT
WHY - as has been said this was debated to death last year but as you say this is a genuine question and you are not being rude (and I hope not trying to stir trouble although posting as a guest makes me wary!). I will attempt to answer your question genuinely as someone whose adult daughter does ride small ponies - Dartmoors and Sec b's and C's. She chose to go down the M&M route when her BSPS plaited days ended at age 25 for a number of reasons. The main one being her very busy work life which meant trying to move in the Hack/Riding Horse world was difficult. Most shows were mid week and she did not have time to do them from home to the level they needed to be kept. Also she enjoys the pleasure of riding the ponies in the ring herself rather than just doing the ride round and having a ride judge ride them (yes I know Hacks do their own show but still a big part of the class is the ride). So we got a Sec C and then the ponies followed from there, and yes M&Ms are easier to do from home, another big factor is that I can handle the small ponies but would not be comfortable with a large horse, I love showing still and love being able to help with the ponies and share a passion with her. We are very lucky to have a friend who allows us to use her yard and fields but again the facilities would not be suitable for a horse and she would not want us to keep anything but ponies there. Chloe is 5' 2" so certainly not tall - she is also very concious of her weight (especially after last years debates) so I will not embarrass her by telling you what it is however she is within the TSR guidelines. She also shows Stallions - who if we are being honest would not be children's rides. We are lucky that studs allow us to have a couple of stallions from them to show in the ridden ring, whilst they are also part of their breeding programmes and shown in hand. I personally think many studs do like to showcase their stallions and we are grateful they trust us with their precious stallions. So why do we do it - because she is small enough to ride ponies; because it fits her very busy lifestyle working in London and her own business; because she enjoys bringing on young ponies and showing them; loves the fact that we can have them at home to bring on and still loves competing and gets a real buzz from it. (Anyone who saw her win the small breeds at HOYS last year will know from her reaction how much this meant to her, I have never known her lost for words!!) I feel showing should be inclusive rather than trying to have so many rules about who and who cannot ride what - personally I wish we had the Australian system for plaiteds as I would love to have a Show Pony or Hunter pony again!! But I had better not wish too hard as her partner is from NZ so she may disappear there!!! and that would be a long way for me to go to help and watch! I hope that answers your 'genuine' question and we can all enjoy our showing in a way that suits all of us.
|
|
|
Post by janetbushell on Jul 13, 2017 8:53:34 GMT
Why - I think you have confused your definition of "children's riding ponies". These are ridden by children in the ring, although many are schooled etc by people too old to compete them in the show ring. The Welsh section As & Dartmoors you refer to are British native breeds & while most are eminently suitable to be ridden by children they have in fact developed over time to assist man in his working environment, working in a variety of ways.
|
|
|
Post by marymarynli on Jul 13, 2017 10:13:45 GMT
Yes thank you Chloe's Mum and Janet Bushell ....sense at last !!
|
|
|
Post by NGreen on Jul 13, 2017 11:16:00 GMT
Why do adults ride what should be childrens ponies? Why do we have them riding Dartmoors Section A's etc? Surely these are childrens riding ponies? Big, tall sometimes overweight adults. I know theres a crackdown on overweight riders (Yorkshire Show) Not being rude or anything its just a genuine question. Because I am 4'10" 34 years old and i love riding my pony. But really he is a native. With good bone and extremely fit. A Dartmoor used to carry men across the moors to work in the prison as just one example of their roots.
|
|
|
Post by bigmama on Jul 13, 2017 11:30:18 GMT
Things have certainly changed since my daughter rode in small breeds classes in the noughties ... then it was rare to see an adult riding a small breed of native pony. When did it all change? When the small breeds classes were introduced at Hoys. Today, it is much harder for a young child to compete in open ridden small breeds against adults and possibly producers. Hence why the Junior Ridden M&M classes have been introduced but even so, many of the ponies in those classes have been ridden/schooled/produced by an adult for a child to ride in the ring. Having said all that, our native breeds are sturdy ponies who will carry a small adult in the show ring and there are many small adult riders on the circuit who do, in fact, provide the perfect picture on a small breed. I doubt we will ever see a return to less adults on small breeds but perhaps, as has already been suggested on this thread, the opening up of show pony and show hunter pony classes to any age of suitably sized rider may see a more even distribution of small adult riders across all types of ridden pony in the UK. Boy am I glad I had my children when I did and they could enjoy showing their little ponies without adults/social media/Hoys/pressure Does my daughter ride small breeds now? No, she is far too tall/long legged. We wouldn't dream of it.
|
|
|
Post by MandyS on Jul 13, 2017 12:08:45 GMT
Please please please can people write to the societies about the ages of plaited ponies to change. I have done and had a great response from NCPA, Ponies UK and Grandstand Media. NPS also replied. The only society that did not respond was BSPS!
Janet Bushell very kindly added a class to the POYS show this year and put in a WHP plaited class for riders any age. Thank you again.
I started writing to all the societies at the beginning of this year and they said they would put it to their committees.
The plaited ponies classes in numbers are deteriorating and I believe it's due to the age restrictions. My daughter is 28 has a 15hh shp that she hasn't been able to compete since she was 20. He is a veteran now but is still fit and healthy and can and does still compete with the young guns when rules allow but can't at high level showing. But she has a 12.1 Section C who she can compete but doesn't as she feels she is too big for him.
I do feel that societies aren't prepared to change and just move to putting on more M&M classes to bring the money in. I was so disappointed by our NPS area. They did not have one plaited WHP class and had around 17 M&M Wh classes. They state as a society they gave no age limit but try and actually find an area that puts on the classes. I was told by NPS they can't force their areas to put on certain classes.
|
|
|
Post by the showing register on Jul 13, 2017 12:19:51 GMT
TSR have any age classes at all their shows.
However children can get put off at top level if struggling against adults all the time as the adult has achieved a high level of competence and the child is still getting there. I know some child riders are exceptional but this is the exception not the rule.
|
|
|
Post by MandyS on Jul 13, 2017 12:36:06 GMT
But just like M&Ms they could have junior plaited classes. It's more ponies between say 14hh to 15hh that need to change.
They could do away with the age limits in say the intermediate classes and rename the classes. Not all adults want to over horse themselves when they are small and look like a pimple on a mountain top.
|
|
|
Post by lastchance on Jul 13, 2017 13:18:46 GMT
But just like M&Ms they could have junior plaited classes. It's more ponies between say 14hh to 15hh that need to change. They could do away with the age limits in say the intermediate classes and rename the classes. Not all adults want to over horse themselves when they are small and look like a pimple on a mountain top. If they did away with the upper age limit in the intermediate classes, what would be the point of them? With HOYS qualification up for grabs, I'm sure the big guns would be out in force in these classes so, in theory, we could have a tall young teen competing against Robert Walker et al and if the standard becomes that high then the classes aren't the stepping stone that was originally intended. Re removing the age limits in the other BSPS plaited classes, I don't agree. I'm probaby going to be the odd one out here and say the maximum age should be lowered back to what it used to be, with, perhaps, the exception being the 153cm SHP/WHP classes. Maybe the BSPS could introduce plaited classes with no age restriction in addition to the usual classes though. If they did then I'd like to see stallions eligible too, especially if age limits are removed.
|
|
|
Post by MandyS on Jul 13, 2017 13:41:04 GMT
Everybody is entitled to their opinion and obviously everyone won't agree but I do think something has to be done with the 'bigger ponies' who aren't technically ponies. Our boy is 150.2cm then we have a five year old coloured who is 14.2hh but is quite a chunk. Daughter can't do whp with her as she is too old and pony is too small for the horse classes.
They could still put height limits on the classes but any age and children could still enter if they wanted too.
|
|
|
Post by bigmama on Jul 13, 2017 14:04:32 GMT
But just like M&Ms they could have junior plaited classes. It's more ponies between say 14hh to 15hh that need to change. They could do away with the age limits in say the intermediate classes and rename the classes. Not all adults want to over horse themselves when they are small and look like a pimple on a mountain top. I agree with your idea re. the Junior Plaited Classes but I do think that the Intermediate SRT/SH classes would have to be kept as a junior class
|
|
|
Post by MandyS on Jul 13, 2017 14:14:59 GMT
What do you suggest an adult does with a 15hh pony? I would really like to hear other people's suggestions. I know your daughter rides M&Ms but the whole point of my emails were to try and save plaited classes which I do feel have low numbers due to the age restrictions. Reason why a lot of adults are riding M&Ms now.
|
|
|
Post by bigmama on Jul 13, 2017 14:42:53 GMT
What do you suggest an adult does with a 15hh pony? I would really like to hear other people's suggestions. I know your daughter rides M&Ms but the whole point of my emails were to try and save plaited classes which I do feel have low numbers due to the age restrictions. Reason why a lot of adults are riding M&Ms now. I agree with you Mandy about small adults riding in plaited pony classes and feel there is a place for Junior plaiteds and Open plaiteds but that the intermediates would have to have a junior tag attached to them for the whole reason the intermediates came about was to introduce the older children to horse classes. Without seeing your 15 hander, it is difficult to know just where he fits in to the current showing classes .. I assume small hack or part-bred classes are not for him? Yes, my daughter does concentrate on M&Ms but we did have a beautiful Small ISRT some years ago but my daughter preferred the variety that an M&M can offer as she jumps her ponies as well as competing in flat classes
|
|
|
Post by Toaster on Jul 13, 2017 14:47:45 GMT
Don't the part bred classes have no rider age limit? I cant say I've seen many adults riding ponies in these classes, in fact I would go as far as to say at many shows these are simply a re-run of the 148 SP class.
|
|
|
Post by MandyS on Jul 13, 2017 14:53:33 GMT
Unfortunately not a part bred. He is a shp through and through. Comments from the judge at the weekend was it is nice to see a tradition 15hh shp. We tried him in riding horse classes but it was always commented yes he's a show hunter.
|
|
|
Post by bigmama on Jul 13, 2017 15:08:59 GMT
Another point, it is so difficult letting go of our beloved ponies and although we are in M&Ms, we have had to let a few of those go to new homes when our child put on a growth spurt. I remember having a particularly talented, novice 11.3hds Welsh A who jumped like a tiddlywink but we had to find him a new home when we felt that, at aged 13yrs, daughter's legs had grown too long for him ... based on today's goings on, she looked fine! That little fellow had a wonderful, long term home and he took firstly the boy then his sister to RIHS in the workers. Looking back, we possibly let him go too soon but, back in the day, when M&M ponies were outgrown, children moved on up to the next height section, nowadays, people seem to hoist up the stirrups and carry on, resulting in debates on over-size riders on small ponies!
|
|
|
Post by gillwales on Jul 13, 2017 16:16:36 GMT
TSR have any age classes at all their shows. However children can get put off at top level if struggling against adults all the time as the adult has achieved a high level of competence and the child is still getting there. I know some child riders are exceptional but this is the exception not the rule. What would be more constructive is best child rider, then the emphasis would be on the standard of riding and give those children who's family might not have the money to buy a top pony, to shine as it will be their ability under the spotlight. This would also encourage correct riding rather than what a lot of children do is sit at the back of the saddle with their hands under their chins. I suggest Showing Register that you put these classes on if you don't do them already. THey should be judged by qualified instructors and not breeders or producers.
|
|
|
Post by Toaster on Jul 13, 2017 16:23:30 GMT
TSR have any age classes at all their shows. However children can get put off at top level if struggling against adults all the time as the adult has achieved a high level of competence and the child is still getting there. I know some child riders are exceptional but this is the exception not the rule. What would be more constructive is best child rider, then the emphasis would be on the standard of riding and give those children who's family might not have the money to buy a top pony, to shine as it will be their ability under the spotlight. This would also encourage correct riding rather than what a lot of children do is sit at the back of the saddle with their hands under their chins. I suggest Showing Register that you put these classes on if you don't do them already. THey should be judged by qualified instructors and not breeders or producers. I do believe (and TSR please correct me if I am wrong) that TSR do give out rosettes for good riding in quite a few classes, not necessarily to the most slick of riders but to people who make a massive effort to be correct and who may overcome difficult or untalented ponies etc which I do think is lovely and a nice touch
|
|
|
Post by the showing register on Jul 13, 2017 16:44:28 GMT
We give out star rider awards for riders who have overcome difficulties or adverse happening in the ring with good humour and sportsmanship the stewards make the awards as they see more of what is happening at all times in the ring than the judge.
|
|
sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
|
Post by sarahp on Jul 13, 2017 16:55:03 GMT
MandyS - an adult could dressage or jump a 15hh SHP, or what about actually taking it hunting? No age limits on those, and showing isn't the only thing to be done on a pony, especially now that there are smaller height affiliated events. All disciplines are available to RC competitors and there are masses of RC competitions. What about Le Trec or Endurance riding? If you check out performance ponies, many of those have RP/SHP bloodlines. Other reasons why many adults ride natives is that they will carry more weight for a given height and cost less to keep than a plaited type.
|
|
|
Post by gillwales on Jul 13, 2017 17:01:46 GMT
We give out star rider awards for riders who have overcome difficulties or adverse happening in the ring with good humour and sportsmanship the stewards make the awards as they see more of what is happening at all times in the ring than the judge. This is very good , but good sportsmanship etc is not the same as best rider, maybe you could consider these classes for next year
|
|
|
Post by the showing register on Jul 13, 2017 17:48:10 GMT
Yes indeed , what I meant by good sportsmanship is that the rider did not have a sulk or tantrum if things went wrong ! There is so much nastiness in showing at the moment that we try to encourage cheerfullness in adversity.
I will put your comments to Sarah in our regional rider championships they get a mark for rider ability so its a start.
|
|
|
Post by Laughable on Jul 13, 2017 20:48:36 GMT
Yes because those age restrictions that where in place 20 years ago affected the size of classes when you'd have 30 plus show ponies in classes
An m&m can do a multitude of jobs aswell as go in the show ring so more likely for people to own one because of their versatility
SP/SHP are blood ponies; the old debate of conformation over manners has led to ponies that are beautiful but are lack the manners/temperament to be true childs riding pony. My 13hh who I did 13.2show pony classes also competed in nursery stakes and whp classes she was a show pony but she could jump so we jumped aswell! Now they are only suitable for trotting around in circles not a pony anyone can have fun on
People complain about adults on small m&ms yet want to do away with age limits in our pony classes it laughable really
NPS have classes without age restriction that stallions can enter is ever supported very well no it's not
|
|
|
Post by tabbyx on Jul 13, 2017 21:06:02 GMT
As an adult rider(21) I do feel plaited classes would benefit hugely from opening the age groups up to allow adults, although I do agree with bigmama that it would entirely defeat the point of intermediate classes if the age limit for riders was removed. I absolutely adore my show ponies and show hunter ponies, I look a lovely size on a 133cm shp or 138cm show pony and have competed in NPS classes on small ponies(133cm upwards) since I was out of the class. I'm approx 5ft2 and weigh a little over 8 stone so compared to some children competing in plaited or age restricted classes I am quite small, in fact one of the girls that rode my pony in shp classes is now a good 5 inches taller than me if not more! I think a lot of owners struggle to find good jockeys for these ponies that are actually capable of riding a pony correctly and using their legs instead of riding with the handbrake on all the time and not allowing the pony to travel into it's bridle. I do think allowing adults in the plaited classes would improve the quality of riding and pony. I have lessons with an Australian producer who has relocated over here, he puts much more focus on my riding than most of the UK people I've had lessons with and I think that stems from the fact that they have hugely popular rider classes in Australia which focus on the quality/correctness/effectiveness of the riding exhibited. I do think we would benefit hugely from a similar system to Australia and New Zealand.
|
|
|
Post by janetbushell on Jul 13, 2017 21:15:57 GMT
Please please please can people write to the societies about the ages of plaited ponies to change. I have done and had a great response from NCPA, Ponies UK and Grandstand Media. NPS also replied. The only society that did not respond was BSPS! Janet Bushell very kindly added a class to the POYS show this year and put in a WHP plaited class for riders any age. Thank you again. I started writing to all the societies at the beginning of this year and they said they would put it to their committees. The plaited ponies classes in numbers are deteriorating and I believe it's due to the age restrictions. My daughter is 28 has a 15hh shp that she hasn't been able to compete since she was 20. He is a veteran now but is still fit and healthy and can and does still compete with the young guns when rules allow but can't at high level showing. But she has a 12.1 Section C who she can compete but doesn't as she feels she is too big for him. I do feel that societies aren't prepared to change and just move to putting on more M&M classes to bring the money in. I was so disappointed by our NPS area. They did not have one plaited WHP class and had around 17 M&M Wh classes. They state as a society they gave no age limit but try and actually find an area that puts on the classes. I was told by NPS they can't force their areas to put on certain classes. NCPA have always had their own classes "NCPA Registered" which have never had age limits for the non M&M section, merely a definition of the rider being a suitable size for the animal. Following the request for WHP classes this was an easily added logical extension to our existing sections. We hope it proves popular this year - if it does we will consider splitting the class further for future years. We have already decided to also hold the class at the NCPA Spring Spectacular in 2018
|
|
|
Post by ilovenatives on Jul 13, 2017 21:47:00 GMT
Yes I do think it's strange that everyone goes on about adults on small breeds but people want the age limits taken away from the plaited classes . My daughter is nearly 16 ,less than 7.5 stone and five foot tall but she will be carrying on showing her chunky 11.3 section a and also her 12h Dartmoor who is built like a brick outhouse ( she also does dressage and jumping ). I get fed up with comments about how I will have to get her a large breed soon . Both ponies are more than capable of carrying her . It is hard competing against the high profile jockeys in the open classes and to start with she was a bit intimidated but they have all been really friendly and kind to her from when she first started opens that now she just sits in the line up chatting to them. The TSR star awards are fab , my daughter got one at our regional finals a couple of years ago as her pony was being a pig on the go round . Our Shetland pony got awarded one last year for gamely doing five classes from lead rein with a little boy who couldn't rise to the trot to the junior's and in hand m and m when a friend borrowed her for her kids for the day
|
|
|
Post by Why on Jul 13, 2017 22:23:52 GMT
Thank you Bigmama for your reply. Everybody else thank you but you lost me with all the showing jargon haha Yes its an honest question. No malice. Just a question i often wonder about. Adults riding small ponies. But what confuses me more is adults going round in endless circles then putting a chikd on board after to compete. Puzzles me greatly Thank you everyone
|
|