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Post by mcnaughty on Aug 29, 2017 14:44:44 GMT
OK - sort of related to the previous thread - but a question to all as I am very confused! Oh and putting my brave pants on my posting under my name too LOL.
We went to Equifest again this summer and this year we stuck firmly around the workers rings and had great fun. However, a pony came into the ring that was very very over height in a 133 M&M workers class. Our boy is JMB measured at 132cm and as I know I am a nobody (LOL) I know that is accurate. This pony was enormous.
Well I had to admit to a bit too loudly scoffing to myself at it's height and the lady next to me on my right piped up and agreed, then the lady on the other side of her chipped in and then the lady to her right too. Now my daughter had a pole down so we weren't going to get into the ribbons but I wandered down to the ring steward (who I had got to know reasonably well over the previous 3 days) and voiced my concern. She said it 'wasn't up to the judge to say anything and even if the pony was lame the judge couldn't say anything'.
My question is - is that true? I mean if the judge isn't going to question height or lameness then who is? ME? Do I have to put my money where my mouth is and lodge a formal complaint? That cannot be right?? Should we all (there were about 6 of us by this point) have put a bit in a pot to make a written complaint?
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Post by gillwales on Aug 29, 2017 15:33:22 GMT
Congratulations on putting your brave pants on! I probationed with a very well known Judge in workers, one of the classes was the Intermediates, one of the horses was very obviously over height, when I mentioned this I was told it was not my place to judge the height, at BSPS Wales I Stewarded and one of the ponies was hopping, the Judge stated that there was nothing she could do, I have to say that the pony was unplaced. Personally I do not agree with either.
On the height, as I stated in a previous post, it nearly always makes the animal "not of type" and I would mark accordingly. Personally if I saw a pony that was lame I would invite the rider to retire it as I consider allowing it to continue to compete can only be considered as abuse.
Both of the above should firmly be put down to the competitors, if someone doesn't pull every trick to get a horse measured to a lower height and who would send a lame pony into the ring?
I do think that you and the other 5 who felt the same way should have at the very least written a complaint to the Secretary.
I understand that at one point when a pony who was sent out due to lameness the owner threaten to sue the Judge and Society which is why Judges tend to be a bit twitchy over this matter. Knowing this it is understandable why a Judge will not do anything about it.
It is a shame that this now happens.
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Post by mcnaughty on Aug 29, 2017 17:51:22 GMT
As I am sure you would gather, as it was Equifest none of the ponies had to have JMB certs so a bit difficult to 'ask for proof' but I would hope that in the rules a large show like Equifest would have a 'measuring room' and threaten removal to such a room in their rules but there is no such threat and therefore I assume open for people to 'take the p'!
I must add though that the other ladies said that this large pony had been spotted for the past three years in this particular class so assume they are not likely to stop any time soon!
Yes I suppose I should have written and if they are there next year I will I promise ;-)
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Post by Philippa on Aug 29, 2017 19:23:49 GMT
Interesting topic. We have just returned from bsps champs and a very well known, top class former hoys champion LR SP was noticeably lame. Quite sad to watch actually. I commented to a couple of people I was standing next to in the ring and they also agreed it was lame. I didn't complain about it as it either went unplaced or when it was surprisingly placed it was below us anyway. How bad is it now that a judge cannot say something or ask for a pony to be removed from the class. It would make bystanders think the judge had either not noticed or overlooked the lameness.
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Post by gillwales on Aug 29, 2017 20:02:51 GMT
It is sad Philippa, and it would be better if the Societies made this fact public, then the Judges would not receive the backlash. All I continue to do is to go to the AGM's and lobby for the changes needed. The other factor regarding the lameness issues, especially at bigger shows where a Vet might be present is that the timetables are so tight that it makes it almost impossible to hold up a class while a Vet is called to confirm unsoundness. Therefore the Societies need to make it a rule that if the Judge decides a pony is unsound it must leave the ring with no repercussions. Such a shame we live in a world where civil actions spoil something like a horse show
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Post by Mrs Santa on Aug 29, 2017 21:34:54 GMT
It reminds me of an occasion when I was judging an unaffiliated show and had a couple of lame ponies presented to me during the day. I ALWAYS stop the competitor and advise accordingly if the rules permit. However, on this occasion one of the competitors replied with, "Oh no, he's not lame, he's got arthritis," looking at me as though I were stupid. So I said, "Yes, and because he has arthritis, which is joint inflammation, he is lame, which means he is in pain and is unsound for showing and I must ask you to leave the ring." Which she did. And then lo and behold she presented the very same horse to me in to another class a little later on and really could not understand why I would not have this hopping lame animal in the ring. You just can't help some people.
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Post by Agree on Aug 30, 2017 6:29:20 GMT
I completely agree about this at Equifest. Some of the heights were crazy! 14hh that would have been lucky if they had got a 14.2hh certificate and the same with 13.2hh in the eventing classes. I heard someone complaining at the secretary's about a pony that was over height and they said they cannot do anything as it is not the shows policy to challenge people on height. It is difficult for them as they can't police every class, but maybe random measurements or judges permission to send a horse for a measurement would stop some people pushing their luck?
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Post by Agreed on Aug 30, 2017 7:57:36 GMT
Some of the breed societies will ask for a pony to be remeasured if there are complaints. Once this has happened the pony seems to be measured for life even if it appears 2" too big and this seems to be the average for increased height. Remember the measurement is the LOWEST height on the day, the only suggestion worth considering is that people enter the class with a height below that anticipated unless of course they have been measured! Some of the M&M WHP classes are now ridiculous with ponies being bought as smaller than the breed standards would indicate as desirable.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Aug 30, 2017 8:51:20 GMT
Agreed I don't really follow your last sentence. Most (but not all) native breeds have an upper height limit with no lower one, so ponies smaller then the height limit are entirely acceptable!
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Post by maximusdecimus on Aug 30, 2017 9:33:10 GMT
My daughter competed in the HOYS SHP classes at Dunster a few weeks ago and the 14hh pulled top after the go around was asked to leave the ring after conformation (and it had done a beautiful show) as the judge said it was un sound. But she explained fully to the competitor why she was asking it to leave in a very polite manner. It was nice to see a brave judge, who I might add judged exceptionally fairly and well through all the classes (and we didn't win so I'm not biased!!).
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Post by Equifest on Aug 30, 2017 12:58:31 GMT
One pony entered in 133cm workers was unable to compete as other competitors put money down. The pony was advertised with a height cert of 136! This pony went on to compete in the 143 section later in the week.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Aug 30, 2017 15:05:31 GMT
Some of the breed societies will ask for a pony to be remeasured if there are complaints. Once this has happened the pony seems to be measured for life even if it appears 2" too big and this seems to be the average for increased height. Remember the measurement is the LOWEST height on the day, the only suggestion worth considering is that people enter the class with a height below that anticipated unless of course they have been measured! Some of the M&M WHP classes are now ridiculous with ponies being bought as smaller than the breed standards would indicate as desirable. To correct you on a couple of 'technicalities'. 1) you say - " once this has happened the pony appears to be measured for life even if it appears 2" too big and this seems to be the average for increased height". If I may:- a) if an animal is re-called for re-measurement, following said re-measurement it is 'immune' from further objection or re-call except by order of the JMB Stewards. and b) all 'competition' classifications, therefore all animals requiring to be measured, are classified in centimetres, not inches. Height classifications went Metric many, many years ago, so the "inch" is almost prehistoric!! With regards to 'unaffiliated' shows (such as Equifest) it is hoped that people will enter into the correct classification (be it Breed specification / height/ Home Produced / Novice / Junior / Registered / unregistered or whatever) to repeat - will enter - 'in the Spirit intended'. Otherwise, all the competitive, 'lower-pressure' fun of this sort of show will be killed stone dead. Unaffiliated show Organisers do not necessarily have the means to check records of this nature and nor should they have to. It is very sad to hear of exhibitors contravening the most basic of regulations at a fun show such as Equifest. These shows are unaffiliated for a reason. Sadly, there are (and always will be) those individuals who chose to flaunt rules and push boundaries to the limit. By the way, as SarahP has correctly stated, no Native Breed sets a compulsory MINIMUM height limit, only a MAXIMIM one. However, BSPS & BSHA, for example, do use height min & max as their classification. I do totally agree with you that, at a formal JMB Measurement, the Measurement recorded must be the lowest achievable on the day. Finally, there is no such thing as a "Life" Height Certificate. The correct terminology is "FULL".
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Aug 30, 2017 15:17:42 GMT
A small correction Caroline - there is lower height limit for Welsh Ds of 13.2hh (or maybe the cm equivalent), but of course no upper height limit. Below that height Cs have this upper height limit but no lower one. And I'm no Shetland expert, but does the same thing apply between Standard and Miniature Shetlands? Of course as you say, performance classes may use upper and lower height limits which override the breed standards for those classes as long as the ponies are the correct height for their breed.
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Post by Agreed on Aug 30, 2017 15:37:52 GMT
Maybe you guys who are so hot on technicalities should go and read the current breed standards of ALL the native breeds. As far as I am aware all societies have an upper height limit except the dales - who have a 'preferred' height but not a mandatory one and the welsh D's who don't have one at all. Unless people start to support the breed societies there will be very few true to type M&M ponies around in 20 years time. The majority of them are already on the rare breeds register yet little is done by the showing organisations to support them and the majority of producers are only interested in the animal as a horse not as an example of a specific breed or type.
On the subject of lower heights there is frequently a 'preferred' lower end and sometimes a prescribed one although this seems to be reducing - e.g. the highland pony society have recently removed the lower height limit.
My point is that lower heights as much as bigger ones detract from breed type and shouldn't be encouraged. I'm not convinced that measuring in or out is helping to promote any of the breeds which should in any case be instantly recognisable as whatever they are when for example found in the middle of a flat field, dessert or housing complex! It is so important that the breeds have credibility both as a breed and for their abilities not just as 'performance' types.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Aug 30, 2017 15:48:44 GMT
That was what I said re upper height limits, and I still don't follow your point about any correlation between WHP class height limits and native ponies small for their breed. In my experience most potential buyers want them up to height, even the Welsh Ds with no height limit! Height is a multigene trait, offhand I think governed by 8 different genes, and will thus always give a classic bell curve distribution of heights anyway. Of course you can move the whole curve higher or lower in time by choosing always the taller or smaller ones from which to breed, but it would take masses of foals born to produce an effect. I totally agree with you re breed type not being lost.
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Post by hazeysunshine on Aug 30, 2017 17:30:32 GMT
I only recently discovered that judges won't mention when a horse is lame. I was discussing with a judge about how I'd pulled my fell from a class as he trotted out lame and saying how the judge didn't say anything. Then came up about they won't. I've seen horses hopping lame at some very prestigious shows.
I get that sometimes it's not always easy to see/feel lameness from a rider/handler perspective but some I've seen have literally been hopping around. It always puzzled me why people wouldn't retire.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Aug 30, 2017 18:01:19 GMT
I only recently discovered that judges won't mention when a horse is lame. I was discussing with a judge about how I'd pulled my fell from a class as he trotted out lame and saying how the judge didn't say anything. Then came up about they won't. I've seen horses hopping lame at some very prestigious shows. I get that sometimes it's not always easy to see/feel lameness from a rider/handler perspective but some I've seen have literally been hopping around. It always puzzled me why people wouldn't retire. Actually, a Judge DOES have the right to comment regarding 'perceived' "unevenness" on the day. However, it is not in a judge's remit to declare an animal "LAME" during a Showing Class. There are only a very few Judges who are MRCVS' and even so, it takes a brave person to send an animal out of the ring, UNLESS under Clinical observation. For Judges, to send an animal out to a Vet in a collecting ring (who will only observe it run up in hand, not ascertain if it is simply 'Bridle lame') - is tantamount to suicide. Far better to explain your thoughts on the day to the Exhibitor and leave it to them to 'withdraw' their animal from the class if they wish. Or, they could be placed well down the line. Their remit.. That is, if they have not felt the possible lameness for themselves already.
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Post by pipandwill on Aug 30, 2017 18:01:53 GMT
I've recently done the bsps young judges competition, and upon reading the rule book and talking to other judges I discovered that if a judge believes a pony to be lame then they can send it to the on site vet or if there is not a vet on site then the judges decision is final. In regards to height, from what I could gather, if a judge thinks a pony is over height they can't send them out, but they can go to the society to voice their concerns on the height of pony, then the society can ask via jmb to be released measured.
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Post by chloesmum on Aug 31, 2017 7:40:57 GMT
I think judges do take an individual view on this. I have seen judges discreetly speak to a competitor and tell them in their opinion they think their pony is unsound and I have also seen judges ask competitors to leave the ring. I do remember a long time ago a well known horse being asked to leave as the judge felt it was lame and the competitor took it to the on site vet who said it was not and they then came back to the ring and caused a big fuss, so feel this could put a lot of judges off from making that decision. Usually if a judge has expressed doubts on soundness what is the point in staying in the ring, even if you disagree the polite thing to do is ask to leave. This has only ever happened to us once it was a qualifier and we were in top but the judge expressed an opinion and we knew we would go to the bottom of the line so politely left the ring. Pony was not lame but perhaps went short on a bumpy ring and at the end of the day the judges decision is final, I would rather know the judge liked my pony and on another day we may win under them. I think sometimes your marks will reflect the judge thinking pony is unsound but it is nice to to be told quietly that they think it may be unsound, often people get a low mark and don't understand why this could be the reason!
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Post by Toaster on Aug 31, 2017 13:44:34 GMT
Interesting topic. We have just returned from bsps champs and a very well known, top class former hoys champion LR SP was noticeably lame. Quite sad to watch actually. I commented to a couple of people I was standing next to in the ring and they also agreed it was lame. I didn't complain about it as it either went unplaced or when it was surprisingly placed it was below us anyway. How bad is it now that a judge cannot say something or ask for a pony to be removed from the class. It would make bystanders think the judge had either not noticed or overlooked the lameness. I was dismayed to see a few ponies there that were at worst lame and at best 'merely' footy
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Post by mcnaughty on Aug 31, 2017 15:36:10 GMT
[/quote]To correct you on a couple of 'technicalities'.
1) you say - "once this has happened the pony appears to be measured for life even if it appears 2" too big and this seems to be the average for increased height".
If I may:- a) if an animal is re-called for re-measurement, following said re-measurement it is 'immune' from further objection or re-call except by order of the JMB Stewards. and b) all 'competition' classifications, therefore all animals requiring to be measured, are classified in centimetres, not inches. Height classifications went Metric many, many years ago, so the "inch" is almost prehistoric!!
With regards to 'unaffiliated' shows (such as Equifest) it is hoped that people will enter into the correct classification (be it Breed specification / height/ Home Produced / Novice / Junior / Registered / unregistered or whatever) to repeat - will enter - 'in the Spirit intended'. Otherwise, all the competitive, 'lower-pressure' fun of this sort of show will be killed stone dead. Unaffiliated show Organisers do not necessarily have the means to check records of this nature and nor should they have to. It is very sad to hear of exhibitors contravening the most basic of regulations at a fun show such as Equifest.
These shows are unaffiliated for a reason. Sadly, there are (and always will be) those individuals who chose to flaunt rules and push boundaries to the limit.
By the way, as SarahP has correctly stated, no Native Breed sets a compulsory MINIMUM height limit, only a MAXIMIM one. However, BSPS & BSHA, for example, do use height min & max as their classification.
I do totally agree with you that, at a formal JMB Measurement, the Measurement recorded must be the lowest achievable on the day.
Finally, there is no such thing as a "Life" Height Certificate. The correct terminology is "FULL".[/quote]
Caroline, I do feel your argument of Equifest being unaffiliated, low-pressure and fun is a bit off the target. I think you might need to have a word with the multiple professionals who compete at it! Yes, it did start out as being aimed at the un-professional but it has lets say 'evolved' from there! It is still fun though but not in the context I feel you were using the word ;-) Equifest need to grow up and grow a pair and see that £20 a class is not for 'fun' it is serious money when added up over a week plus stabling!
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Post by CarolineNelson on Aug 31, 2017 18:29:40 GMT
To correct you on a couple of 'technicalities'. 1) you say - " once this has happened the pony appears to be measured for life even if it appears 2" too big and this seems to be the average for increased height". If I may:- a) if an animal is re-called for re-measurement, following said re-measurement it is 'immune' from further objection or re-call except by order of the JMB Stewards. and b) all 'competition' classifications, therefore all animals requiring to be measured, are classified in centimetres, not inches. Height classifications went Metric many, many years ago, so the "inch" is almost prehistoric!! With regards to 'unaffiliated' shows (such as Equifest) it is hoped that people will enter into the correct classification (be it Breed specification / height/ Home Produced / Novice / Junior / Registered / unregistered or whatever) to repeat - will enter - 'in the Spirit intended'. Otherwise, all the competitive, 'lower-pressure' fun of this sort of show will be killed stone dead. Unaffiliated show Organisers do not necessarily have the means to check records of this nature and nor should they have to. It is very sad to hear of exhibitors contravening the most basic of regulations at a fun show such as Equifest. These shows are unaffiliated for a reason. Sadly, there are (and always will be) those individuals who chose to flaunt rules and push boundaries to the limit. By the way, as SarahP has correctly stated, no Native Breed sets a compulsory MINIMUM height limit, only a MAXIMIM one. However, BSPS & BSHA, for example, do use height min & max as their classification. I do totally agree with you that, at a formal JMB Measurement, the Measurement recorded must be the lowest achievable on the day. Finally, there is no such thing as a "Life" Height Certificate. The correct terminology is "FULL".[/quote] Caroline, I do feel your argument of Equifest being unaffiliated, low-pressure and fun is a bit off the target. I think you might need to have a word with the multiple professionals who compete at it! Yes, it did start out as being aimed at the un-professional but it has lets say 'evolved' from there! It is still fun though but not in the context I feel you were using the word ;-) Equifest need to grow up and grow a pair and see that £20 a class is not for 'fun' it is serious money when added up over a week plus stabling! [/quote] To be fair, I have previously judged at Equifest and was most definitely advised that the Show was aimed at non-Professionals. This was, in fairness, some years ago when it was still in its infancy.
if "Professionals" chose to compete there then that is their call, or that of the organisers. But not, I thought, the original aim of the Equifest Experience.
Indeed, some years ago, not too long after the show's advent, I recall a VERY strong conversation from a VERY well-known (Horse) Professional as to whom certain Championship Judges (of which I was one) should (or should not) put up in a big final, as this person felt that as some riders were 'Professional" or "family" of same, the advice was to chose others.
How many rules are written (or, in this case, not written!) for us poor judges to digest and abide by?
Subsequent to that bizarre conversation, I'd prefer to stick to a few Society/Affiliated Shows per annum; preferably those with a well-defined Rule Book! Having said which, I had the privilege of judging at an unaffiliated show in a remote part of the UK the other week. It was a refreshing experience; lovely organisers, happy competitors and a super atmosphere.
Ref: your comments above, a) maybe the use of the noun 'argument' being [to quote you] 'off the target', is a bit strong? and b) - a question - why ever would "I" wish to [again quote] "'have a word' to the multiple professionals who compete there"?? That is not the remit of a total outsider . . . .
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Post by catkin on Sept 1, 2017 7:46:17 GMT
On Shetlands, they are the same 'breed' so no reclassification required, with the same breed standards applied throughout. It is just a matter of what class you show them in.
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Post by mcnaughty on Sept 1, 2017 13:27:29 GMT
Caroline - I'm a bit unclear as to what you are trying to say but I think you are just repeating what I wrote - confused.
Anyway, the original question was aimed as a question - if a pony is overheight or lame either at an affiliated or high level event - who is authorised to raise the concern? Is it down to competitors to raise it - what is the correct process?
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 1, 2017 14:30:35 GMT
Caroline - I'm a bit unclear as to what you are trying to say but I think you are just repeating what I wrote - confused. Anyway, the original question was aimed as a question - if a pony is overheight or lame either at an affiliated or high level event - who is authorised to raise the concern? Is it down to competitors to raise it - what is the correct process? Actually, I am absolutely not repeating what you wrote! (Although, I did quote you a couple of times). I raised points within your various oblique asides. To respond to your original question - In my humble opinion, NO, is should most definitely NOT be down to other competitors to raise to Officials, any possible 'lameness' issues viewed from a ringside perspective regarding the 'lameness or not' of other peoples' animals. If the Competitor himself / herself cannot feel it, if the Judge cannot see it, let it be. This is showing - perceived to be a sport, not a G8 Summit! As for "over-height". Keep calm, if there are genuine concerns, speak to the Show organisers and the Secretary of the involved Society / Association who will, in turn, communicate with a Steward or the Secretariat of the JMB. That is, providing the animal is registered! it is the Competitor's choice as to [at] which level they wish to compete.
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Post by janetbushell on Sept 1, 2017 14:47:29 GMT
Caroline - I'm a bit unclear as to what you are trying to say but I think you are just repeating what I wrote - confused. Anyway, the original question was aimed as a question - if a pony is overheight or lame either at an affiliated or high level event - who is authorised to raise the concern? Is it down to competitors to raise it - what is the correct process? To me these are two entirely separate issues. Apparently "lame" animals: I am not a vet, but as a judge if I believe it is a welfare issue (due to the severity) I will speak to the competitor (or an adult in the case of a child rider) & suggest they might like to withdraw as I will have called the animal in last. However I am not a vet & therefore I would not use the word "lame" but probably suggest the animal's performance/way of going appears compromised that day for some reason. Few shows seem to have on site vets these days, often they are only "on call" for emergencies. If it is not noticeable in the ridden section, but appears in the strip phase I would probably ask the animal to go again (may have just knocked its own leg, trodden on stone etc & may be fine on second run up). If I still don't believe IMO an animal is "right" then I mark it down. I once spoke to the adult rider of a lovely animal who I had called bottom because it really "hopped" on every corner. I loved the animal & thought perhaps they would prefer not to stand bottom. They withdrew but stayed mounted at the entrance to the ring for the entire class with a definite unhappy expression & did not appear to have checked the animal. Height: Again I am not the expert. In ridden type classes, very often this "type" can be lost. Not just because the animal appears very big for the class, but sometimes even if a genuine height, the animal may appear better suited in the case of 153 SHP or 148 SP class IMO to the Intermediate section as they are too "horsey" in type for me. But both cases I would use my marks. Likewise if an animal appears much larger than its breed specification, although I defy anyone to accurately measure 1 / 2 cms or even 1/ 2 inches in their mind's eye, on uneven ground, up & going in a show class or even in the strip. It can be very surprising how impressions of height can alter on a stationary animal without a saddle. Where I do find a difficulty however, is in the second phase of M&M WHP classes, where the animal may be a superb example of its breed & so with such a small range of marks available for this it is very hard to penalise as I am judging conformation & breed type. Personally I did not seem to feel animals were over height when there were just the 3 sections, but it has seemed slightly more noticeable IMO that since the advent of 4 height sections, many animals moved to the "lower" height & many compete without the need for a height certificate at all levels except actually the HOYS final. That is NOT saying that I believe it to be widespread, just that I have sometimes felt that an animal was on the generous side for the height section. Who should raise the concern? Welfare is IMO down to the judge on the day. Height is a personal opinion & I suspect very few JMB vets are watching the classes thinking the animals are over height, which some competitors appear to, so IMO this is down to them placing an objection through the relevant channels.
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Post by ponymum on Sept 1, 2017 17:27:28 GMT
I think as a judge is in most circumstances NOT a vet, they are not allowed to say so. They are to say something along the lines of "pony doesn't appear right" thus not bringing any society to the point of possible legal action (personally I think it's ridiculous all over a rosette) by stating it is lame. We were once asked to leave the ring in a hospital qualifier as the judge felt our pony was short. He was tense through excitement and once outside was not short at all. I went to speak to the show organiser and pointed out the judge wasn't a vet and wasn't qualified to diagnose our pony. They gave us our entry fee back, probably to diffuse the situation. So this is a tenuous scenario. As for the jmb height certificate, if you do have one and your pony does look big, it's probably best to take to shows to show all and sundry!
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Post by janetbushell on Sept 1, 2017 17:48:47 GMT
"hospital qualifier" LOL - predictive text I presume - unless it was a qualifier for veterinary hospital! (Joke)
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Post by honeypot on Sept 1, 2017 18:28:30 GMT
Whilst a judge is not a vet at affiliated level they should be experts in their discipline, have completed judge training and will have been assessed. If you do not think the judge from spot anything unlevel to an unsound horse why on earth go in the ring? To me its a matter of welfare, if in the judges opinion the animals welfare is compromised by completing the class for any reason, including ones that are overweight and have breathing difficulties they should asked to leave the ring and their should be no come back on the judge. There is a thread on Horse and Hound forum about a horse that paces and competes in affiliate ODE and is often pulled up as to some he appears unlevel and is vet checked. He is always passed sound. The officials have done it in good faith, the welfare of the animal comes first, but its very annoying for the rider. www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?752107-Should-I-complain-and-a-general-moan! It seems that the judge may be able to comment on a riders weight, and there are attempts to limit rider weight but the simple decision to whether a horse is sound or not which the basis of everything,( no foot, or anything else, no horse)should not be the judges decision. Farmers know that they can just about do what they like or not if its for animal welfare, and they are very tightly controlled by DEFRA and face huge fines if they do not comply with certain rules. So if your animal looks lame to a knowledgeable judge or official unless you have a 'doctors note' take it on the chin, do you really want to be seen riding a horse that's thought lame? The height issue will always rumble on, I was told by a judge to put my small 14hands NF in the under 13.2, 'know one will know', well I would. It very hard to make some people honest.
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Post by gillwales on Sept 2, 2017 17:42:59 GMT
The trouble is Honeypot there are those out there that want to win at any cost. What you have said is perfectly right, however are you aware that the BSPS insure their Judges up to the age of 65 for public liability?
Re the height issue there is little the Judges can do about this if the animal has a height certificate. However, as I have said before, most that are in the incorrect class will not look of type and should be mark accordingly. If the marks for the ride section for that animal are a lot higher than others then it could still win and everyone will just have to accept that. Societies MUST stress the importance of type marks to their Judges though.
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