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Post by ponymum on Sept 2, 2017 17:56:42 GMT
"hospital qualifier" LOL - predictive text I presume - unless it was a qualifier for veterinary hospital! (Joke) Yes the wonders of predictive text!!! Have a great show tomorrow Janet😉
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Post by janetbushell on Sept 2, 2017 18:30:45 GMT
"hospital qualifier" LOL - predictive text I presume - unless it was a qualifier for veterinary hospital! (Joke) Yes the wonders of predictive text!!! Have a great show tomorrow Janet😉 Thanks ponymum!
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Post by Uncomfortable on Sept 3, 2017 9:38:24 GMT
There are various degrees of unsoundness. If a judge suspects an animal is unsound then they should respond in some way. Either discuss with exhibitor or place down the line with some explanation. Judges shouldn't say a horse is lame but can dilute the facts to an acceptable level...... not liking the ground, trodden on something?, going a little unlevel. Exhibitors often choose to remove their animals so they are unplaced. The worrying fact is that many judges don't see that an animal in unlevel. I remember seeing an animal removed from a class for being unlevel (and it was) go into the next class under a different judge and get placed in the top three (and it still was unlevel) However if the judge on the day is happy with an animal's soundness, regardless what anyone at the ringside thinks, then the decision is final. Height is a similar issue. The judge isn't an official measurer and as people have said, too big means not of the correct type, then marks may be deducted. However I once had a 14.2 show pony that was bang on 14.2 (easy to measure) he was however 15 hands behind. Lots said your pony looks big, my reply was always put your money down, he's an easy measure! If a height certificate isn't required it's up to individuals to act with integrity and enter the appropriate class. It surely cannot give any joy doing well in a class that you are basically cheating to be in. A shame these points do not have a definitive answer, there are always going to be issues that do not please everyone.
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Objection procedure
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Post by Objection procedure on Sept 3, 2017 15:21:16 GMT
I would like to ask, as a guest for obvious reasons, how would one go about objecting about a horse/pony one suspects to be doped? I am sure we have all seen animals which don't look "right", whilst I understand that at unaffiliated level, including Equifest, this is not an infringement of any rule they are also to be seen competing in affiliated competition. Is there any kind of complaints procedure one can follow or any way of putting your money down with any society?
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totally agree objection
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Post by totally agree objection on Sept 3, 2017 16:48:36 GMT
totally agree with you. What is the answer? As you state, although there is nothing in the rules regarding doping at Equifest, this year I felt it had gone too far. Some of the animals that presented in the evening were hideously doped - there is no calmer on earth that has been invented to achieve this state. I felt ashamed that the owners had put their animals at risk to such an extent and under the watchful eye of the RSPCA. Ponies known to fellow exhibitors to kick or turn inside out at the slightest bit of hand clapping, at other shows throughout the season, were reduced to nothing better than statues. Shame on the owners who do this and send this message out to their children that this is acceptable. What can you do? I think this is an issue that needs addressing - sooner rather than later.
Regarding lameness, at Equifest this year, one very experienced and respected judge did take a child aside and good for her. The pony was absolutely crippled and good for her for doing so. I don't believe for a single second that the parent did not notice what everyone else in the ring was witnessing. It was bordering on cruel.
lastly - there is a 143 SHP that everyone knows is over height but the usual..............everyone is to scared to say anything. It positively towers over all of the others in the class. It was hilarious, because in one qualifying class, the judge, a lovely man made a point in front of everyone, of standing right beside it when stripped and made a line direct from his nose to the pony's withers with his arm, stood back, looked at it again, turned his head towards the others in the line up, stepped forward and repeated the process. Personally, had it been me, I would have crept out of the class but low and behold it is back again this year, still towering over all the others in the class. Hey ho!!!
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 3, 2017 17:14:09 GMT
With all due respect, whilst some might hear your gripes which you have aired here on Social media, why not contact your Society directly?
If that prospect makes you uncomfortable, then do speak to the JMB Secretariat directly - or a neutral Steward such as myself - or the BSPS JMB Rep, Simon Richardson.
However, winging on via this media won't get you anywhere, to be honest. Use these proper channels.
If for some reason that doesn't suit you, you could send a private message if it helps - and I will direct this onwards for you.
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Post by totally agree on Sept 3, 2017 23:06:20 GMT
You have completely misinterpreted me. I think you need to read what I wrote again. I was merely supporting the other person regarding complaints etc. Personally, if I have had problem in the past that affected me directly, I have approached the relevant societies. I have never had a problem doing so but many people do and this point has been made several times on the post already. Just because I am not amongst them, it doesn't mean that I don't have the right to comment on other issues in the post, relevant to me or join in an open discussion. I mean, you certainly do!!! Personally, I feel the doping is a serious issue that needs at best, a discussion - I believe it is an escalating problem and is a serious welfare aspect that should be prioritised. It is abuse. I believe I had a right to express my concerns. I also commented on the over height pony and I had a right to do that too! I didn't vilify any Society or rant on about it, I was merely commenting on how the judge reacted to the height issue. Personally, I felt it was hilarious and he handled it really well. What I categorically did NOT do, was to rebuke any societies for anything - I did not make any personal attacks, I made no accusations, no derogatory remarks, placed no blame - nothing. I merely spoke of my experiences and reported on what I had witnessed regarding doping. I had a right to do that too and I did so within social media guidelines.
I have a right to have an opinion and to express it and I am wondering why is it okay for you to have made your 'many points' yet, I am rebuked by you, for making just one. How is that fair? You know nothing about me, yet you have accused me of griping and winging. That is not a nice thing to do - people reading the post could perceive this as bullying by 'those with portfolio' - especially as you completely misinterpreted what I said. By attacking my character, you have merely endorsed peoples' fears about recriminations when it comes to raising any kind of contentious issues. They air their grievance and are vilified for it, when often all they are doing is provoking a discussion or seeking some kind of solution or closure.
To resolve a problem you first must know and recognise that it exists and what you don't do is discourage people from speaking out by making personal attacks, demeaning people or using sarcasm as a weapon. It is also worth highlighting that we are actually in the 21st century. Jungle drums and smoke signals are so last century..............like it or not, social media is the conduit for communication. If not, someone should try and tell President Trump that it isn't.
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Post by Philippa on Sept 4, 2017 4:00:40 GMT
With all due respect I think Caroline is just trying to help!!!
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Post by ponymum on Sept 4, 2017 7:58:48 GMT
Yes , we are all debating this subject , and I beleive that certain people who have aired their opinions on social media have received letters from the society they affiliate to , to remove said post (even when no names were mentioned!) which surely is not Freedom of speech!!
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Post by arrogorn on Sept 4, 2017 10:01:51 GMT
Judge sent horses out of the ring on Thursday at CHAPS Champs due to unlevelness! I think it takes a brave judge to send a horse out of the ring however it did disrupt the class. Maybe marking it accordingly is a better way of dealing with unsoundness and upon presentation of ribbons give feedback.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 4, 2017 11:37:30 GMT
totally agree with you. What is the answer? As you state, although there is nothing in the rules regarding doping at Equifest, this year I felt it had gone too far. Some of the animals that presented in the evening were hideously doped - there is no calmer on earth that has been invented to achieve this state. I felt ashamed that the owners had put their animals at risk to such an extent and under the watchful eye of the RSPCA. Ponies known to fellow exhibitors to kick or turn inside out at the slightest bit of hand clapping, at other shows throughout the season, were reduced to nothing better than statues. Shame on the owners who do this and send this message out to their children that this is acceptable. What can you do? I think this is an issue that needs addressing - sooner rather than later. Regarding lameness, at Equifest this year, one very experienced and respected judge did take a child aside and good for her. The pony was absolutely crippled and good for her for doing so. I don't believe for a single second that the parent did not notice what everyone else in the ring was witnessing. It was bordering on cruel. lastly - there is a 143 SHP that everyone knows is over height but the usual..............everyone is to scared to say anything. It positively towers over all of the others in the class.
It was hilarious, because in one qualifying class, the judge, a lovely man made a point in front of everyone, of standing right beside it when stripped and made a line direct from his nose to the pony's withers with his arm, stood back, looked at it again, turned his head towards the others in the line up, stepped forward and repeated the process. Personally, had it been me, I would have crept out of the class but low and behold it is back again this year, still towering over all the others in the class. Hey ho!!! Actually, I had comprehensively read your post, with interest and dismay. My comment (and attempted advice) referred solely to this passage, your last paragraph. This time, I have highlighted the relevant part, so as to avoid further confusion.
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Post by maxandpaddy on Sept 4, 2017 13:43:51 GMT
Judge sent horses out of the ring on Thursday at CHAPS Champs due to unlevelness! I think it takes a brave judge to send a horse out of the ring however it did disrupt the class. Maybe marking it accordingly is a better way of dealing with unsoundness and upon presentation of ribbons give feedback. We were in that class and found it quite unsettling, the judges attention was certainly distracted by it and we felt sorry for the competitor about to begin their show. I do think a gentle carefully worded chat afterwards as to why their horse was at the bottom of the line would be a far kinder and less embarrassing way of handling things especially when it was another judges horse they thought was unsound
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Post by gillwales on Sept 4, 2017 16:30:39 GMT
Judge sent horses out of the ring on Thursday at CHAPS Champs due to unlevelness! I think it takes a brave judge to send a horse out of the ring however it did disrupt the class. Maybe marking it accordingly is a better way of dealing with unsoundness and upon presentation of ribbons give feedback. We were in that class and found it quite unsettling, the judges attention was certainly distracted by it and we felt sorry for the competitor about to begin their show. I do think a gentle carefully worded chat afterwards as to why their horse was at the bottom of the line would be a far kinder and less embarrassing way of handling things especially when it was another judges horse they thought was unsound Well this is a bit of dammed if they do and dammed if they don't scenario. Personally for the animal's sake it should be sent out of the ring; however perhaps it should be time that all Societies sang from the same hymn sheet ( If only! ) and stated that an animal that was, in the judge's opinion, unsound, will receive a zero for way of going or movement. We have read on this forum , many posts about a judge not being able to see when an animal is unsound, and being slated for it, this should not happen any more. On the other hand I have had a fellow competitor tell the judge that my exhibit ( in hand ) was unsound when it clearly was not, luckily the judge did check and the placing remained. What I will add is, especially in ridden classes that a Judge does not have eyes in the back of their head and can only see what happens in front of them.
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chocaholic not logged in
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Post by chocaholic not logged in on Sept 8, 2017 8:53:12 GMT
If a judge feels that a pony /horse is either not sound or over height , they always have the option to place/ mark accordingly. Most judges that I have stewarded for would speak to the rider if they were of the opinion that the horse/pony was obviously not level
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Post by underheight on Sept 8, 2017 18:20:21 GMT
weve got a 13.2 who's a true hunter pony and the judges have all loved him at the bsps shows we've done but all have said his problem is that everything else is so overheight which will make him look even smaller
talking of Equifest we competed in 13.2 sp classes as I thinking galloping would blow his brains in SHp class. Considering we're normally the biggest one pony towered above the rest of the class
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Post by Overheight on Sept 11, 2017 10:13:34 GMT
I find this so annoying, I have competed in a class with a height section and one pony entered that was obviously over height & did in fact place above me (rightly so on the day down to behaviour of my own animal). After a little curiosity I popped its catalogued name into google and low and behold some results came up, it had been competing in the height above the previous year.
Very frustrating, I think the subject should definitely be picked up on.
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Post by chloesmum on Sept 11, 2017 10:24:30 GMT
Just to give a bit of praise to JMB I think the new paperless system is great. We took our pony to be measured last week and he is already appearing on the data base, incredibly quick and easy system well done JMB. I also think the database is very useful as you can check an animals height if you buying a pony or indeed have questions on height - it is there for all to see.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 11, 2017 10:45:18 GMT
Just to give a bit of praise to JMB I think the new paperless system is great. We took our pony to be measured last week and he is already appearing on the data base, incredibly quick and easy system well done JMB. I also think the database is very useful as you can check an animals height if you buying a pony or indeed have questions on height - it is there for all to see. Thank you Chloesmum. It is so lovely to read something positive for a change! This season, the Board has received tremendous feedback from Owners and Measuring Vets alike. The paperless system was the brainchild of the JMB Secretaries, Howard Robinson MRCVS and his wife Paula, so well done to them.
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Objection procedure
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Post by Objection procedure on Sept 11, 2017 11:35:32 GMT
I couldn't agree more, the changes made to the JMB system this year have been tremendous, well done to all concerned.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 21, 2017 11:49:16 GMT
Interesting topic. We have just returned from bsps champs and a very well known, top class former hoys champion LR SP was noticeably lame. Quite sad to watch actually. I commented to a couple of people I was standing next to in the ring and they also agreed it was lame. I didn't complain about it as it either went unplaced or when it was surprisingly placed it was below us anyway. How bad is it now that a judge cannot say something or ask for a pony to be removed from the class. It would make bystanders think the judge had either not noticed or overlooked the lameness. BSPS RULE no. 476: 2017 Rule Book (the Brown one). Here I quote. (Re-typed verbatim, not copied & pasted by the way as was incorrectly assumed by a poster on another thread!) "if in the opinion of the Judge a pony entered for an event [being] adjudicated or about to be adjudicated by the Judge is in an unsound condition, the judge may at his discretion request the Exhibitor to refer the matter to the Veterinary Surgeon (VS) officiating at the Show. if however, no VS is available then the Judge's decision is final". So, a Judge at an Affiliated Show DOES have the authority (my definition) to act in these circumstances. At Unaffiliated shows, immediate referral to the show Organiser seems the most obvious course of action. In each ring there should be a Steward with a walkie-talkie/radio (or at least a mobile phone) to be able to speak directly to the Organiser / an Assistant, or a Committee member in such cases. Gosh, if a radio or phone is not available for Steward's/Ring Assistant's use in each ring (particularly if rings are not adjacent) then in a REALLY serious case, eg: a Doctor or Vet needing to be called urgently, then lack of a 'communication device' is down to poor organisation.
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Post by Philippa on Sept 21, 2017 14:13:17 GMT
I've no problem with you copy & pasting rule books Caroline. It's in black & white and straight from the horses mouth then
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Post by janetbushell on Sept 21, 2017 16:27:07 GMT
Just reminding you re BSPS Rule 49 Caroline:
"...........Mobile telephones and ear pieces MUST not be taken into the ring" Copied & pasted with good humour!
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 21, 2017 16:40:14 GMT
Just reminding you re BSPS Rule 49 Caroline: "...........Mobile telephones and ear pieces MUST not be taken into the ring" Copied & pasted with good humour! So, an UNNAFILLIATED Show with the minimum of funds and relying on MOBILES, has now other means of communication?? I always took this (BSPS) Rule to mean that the Trainer could not have contact with the Rider. Hey Ho!!!
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Post by chloesmum on Sept 21, 2017 17:17:19 GMT
And I thought the mobile rule was to stop phones ringing in the ring!!!!! As my daughter seems to have clients who call 24/7 and is always telling me ' I do have to work you know' I am used to having to confiscate the phone as she goes in the ring so welcomed the rule as it has more force than me!!! My favourite moment however was at Olympia a few years back in the warm up when we wondered what she was doing and apparantly live facebooking and filming from the warm up!! Luckily pony is so laid back he didn't need any hands on - whole new meaning to 'hands free!!'.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 21, 2017 18:19:31 GMT
Bless!!
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