Objection procedure
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Post by Objection procedure on Sept 5, 2017 8:42:45 GMT
Forgive me for opening this up as a new thread but when the subject was touched on in a previous thread it appeared that very few people had anything to say on the subject. Am I really the only person who believes that we have a serious problem with horses/ponies being shown doped? How do we tackle this problem? We appear to have no way of officially objecting when we have reason to believe an animal is doped. What should we, as competitors and/or the societies do? I would love to hear other people's thoughts on the subject.....
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Post by wink wink on Sept 5, 2017 11:06:39 GMT
Hi Big Big problem the problem is that they have moved on from the "usual" products , now , and the procedure has not yet caught up with them yet,and they do not test i am led to understand for these new "drugs" For me all they need to do is pay the money and test 1 person for all the substances - i know it could be expensive but all you need to do is catch one on the new drugs, i feel their should be an umbrella stand alone, arm which would cover all the society's and HOYS classes ( do they not test HOYS qualifiers) and should be manned by someone NOT and i repeat not involved with any of the showing society's comments please
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Post by pinkypie on Sept 6, 2017 15:37:54 GMT
I sympathise with your concerns 'objection procedure.' I believe it is an escalating problem and a very difficult one to challenge. No doubt I will get 'shot down in flames' which is what ultimately happens on here, so I am very carefully asking the question - blaming no one..........I am merely contributing to the discussion. Is the apparent doping of animals getting worse because many shows can no longer afford to have a vet either attending or on call and as a result, there is no longer a viable deterrent. Is it worse because people know they can do it and not get caught? Wink Wink - I agree with you, it isn't just about your acp and derivatives, there are some horrifying substances - 'just about anything that cannot be tested' - a quote from a tester at a profile show. Anything from Ritalin to vodka, appear to be acceptable. All I can do is ask more questions - should the societies update their banned substances list? Should RCVS get involved or animal welfare - after all, it is ultimately animal abuse to dope an animal to such an extent that it falls over outside the ring or is unable to get out of a trot in a jam packed evening performance.
It is an appalling problem - Objection Procedure' - good luck, I hope people get behind you - any negative comments would be defending the indefensible.
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Hope the ticket is worth it
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Post by Hope the ticket is worth it on Sept 6, 2017 19:56:54 GMT
Really have we all stooped so low that we need to dope our beloved ponies just to get a Golden Ticket or to put a smile on a customers face. If we really need to do this then ultimately I think the moral compass of life has gone down the drain. Hoys and Grandstand Media will be the killing of the sport and no doubt the shortening of a life of these horses and ponies. Their poor liver and kidneys must be in overdrive to try and expel these products. Its been horryifying to watch some ponies this year that can practically stand up, put one foot in front of another and proceed around the ring with their manhood dangling down due to loss of control. SHOCKING!
Shame on anybody that uses them and dares to call themselves horses lovers !
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Post by To the cheats on Sept 9, 2017 22:08:10 GMT
There does not seem to be the responce to this thread that it deserves,pinky pie and hope the ticket is worth it I could not have said it better than you and totally agree with you,the societies and their judges know that it's going on,there is no point complaining to them is there
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Post by honeypot on Sept 9, 2017 23:00:49 GMT
I hope there is no response because everyone thinks its wrong. While there seems to be no acceptance of legal highs in humans, it seems quite acceptable to discuss and sell anything to calm your animal down. If the bigger shows really wanted to crack down, when you enter you say that you will allow your animal to be tested as part of the entry. You then pay a vet for the day and test random animals and ones that look suspect. Yes it will not catch everything, but it would catch some, enough to make people sweat. I am afraid showing is pays lip service to drugs, every proper horse sport has a clear policy and failure of a drugs test brings shame to the rider. I can not think of one person who has been named and shamed. or lost their prize in showing.
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Post by Philippa on Sept 10, 2017 5:17:58 GMT
There are rules in place with societies and you enter the shows with the possibility of being dope tested. BSPS dope test and report findings on their website. In racing every winner is taken to the dopeing box and tested but racing is a huge big money sport. It can withstand this cost but sadly showing can't. I think the lack of response may be because people don't actually know what's to do or say to combat this problem. Maybe people are naive to the new methods of doping so feel unable to comment?
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Post by honeypot on Sept 10, 2017 11:07:41 GMT
I don't think drug testing is that expensive now, its so common. Humans are drug tested for a variety of things, I work in a school where as part of the school policy the pupils can be drug tested, the parents have to pay and last time I looked it was about £70 per test with full legal back up. Most vets at shows like the rest of us give their time for a good lunch, so there is just the cost of the actual test, or you pay the Hon. Vet per test. Some of the societies do have a policy, but if its never actually implemented its just a paper exercise.
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Sept 10, 2017 11:17:17 GMT
Honeypot I think the government are looking at bringing in legislation against legal highs, but it's difficult to formulate. I can remember someone being penalised on drug offences some years ago now by one of the societies, and my D mare was routinely tested (negative I might add!) at either NPS Chs or maybe Three Counties - at Malvern anyway. Long time ago now though. Straight from class to dedicated box, collect a urine sample, done, as far as the competitor is concerned.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 10, 2017 11:25:07 GMT
I don't think drug testing is that expensive now, its so common. Humans are drug tested for a variety of things, I work in a school where as part of the school policy the pupils can be drug tested, the parents have to pay and last time I looked it was about £70 per test with full legal back up. Most vets at shows like the rest of us give their time for a good lunch, so there is just the cost of the actual test, or you pay the Hon. Vet per test. Some of the societies do have a policy, but if its never actually implemented its just a paper exercise. Honeypot - 'it' IS implemented. So, it is not "just a paper exercise". If your school / the Government' has a policy in place that the Parents have to pay per child, then that is excellent. This financial support simply does not exist (as yet) - in the showing world. Probably it should. But, you quote a sum of £70.00 per school pupil to test a body fluid sample. Treble that (at least) for a thorough Equine test - and even then that can be insufficient to pick up 'other' (more devious?) sedative 'medications' . .
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To the cheats guest
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Post by To the cheats guest on Sept 10, 2017 12:17:27 GMT
Your comment about people being naive to the new methods of doping is true,I am one of these but there must be a deterrent ,most competitors dream of getting that golden HOYS ticket ,if HOYS dope tested the top three places this could be a start,am I that naive to think this could happen I don't know
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Post by dartmoorgirl on Sept 10, 2017 13:16:17 GMT
Maybe a levy on the entry like a first aid fee so the top placed animals can be tested by a vet and we all contribute, I would happily pay a £5 or £10 fee per show if animals were routinely tested at all shows
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Post by honeypot on Sept 10, 2017 18:38:22 GMT
I don't think drug testing is that expensive now, its so common. Humans are drug tested for a variety of things, I work in a school where as part of the school policy the pupils can be drug tested, the parents have to pay and last time I looked it was about £70 per test with full legal back up. Most vets at shows like the rest of us give their time for a good lunch, so there is just the cost of the actual test, or you pay the Hon. Vet per test. Some of the societies do have a policy, but if its never actually implemented its just a paper exercise. Honeypot - 'it' IS implemented. So, it is not "just a paper exercise". If your school / the Government' has a policy in place that the Parents have to pay per child, then that is excellent. This financial support simply does not exist (as yet) - in the showing world. Probably it should. But, you quote a sum of £70.00 per school pupil to test a body fluid sample. Treble that (at least) for a thorough Equine test - and even then that can be insufficient to pick up 'other' (more devious?) sedative 'medications' . . The £70 is for blood to be taken independently and tested to comply with a court of law for evidence. No one says it screens for everything, the metabolites of most opiates including ketamine would be found. The sad thing is that people are using veterinary drugs to get their highs.Its a bit like the flu virus you test for what's in common use at the time. If a drug policy is implemented, it has to take place and people have to be aware of it. You seem to suggest its too expensive for testing to be actually used. I suggest you get the owner to pay, and they get their money back if it is negative.I will have totter off and do some research.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 10, 2017 19:16:50 GMT
Honeypot - 'it' IS implemented. So, it is not "just a paper exercise". If your school / the Government' has a policy in place that the Parents have to pay per child, then that is excellent. This financial support simply does not exist (as yet) - in the showing world. Probably it should. But, you quote a sum of £70.00 per school pupil to test a body fluid sample. Treble that (at least) for a thorough Equine test - and even then that can be insufficient to pick up 'other' (more devious?) sedative 'medications' . . The £70 is for blood to be taken independently and tested to comply with a court of law for evidence. No one says it screens for everything, the metabolites of most opiates including ketamine would be found. The sad thing is that people are using veterinary drugs to get their highs.Its a bit like the flu virus you test for what's in common use at the time. If a drug policy is implemented, it has to take place and people have to be aware of it. You seem to suggest its too expensive for testing to be actually used. I suggest you get the owner to pay, and they get their money back if it is negative.I will have totter off and do some research. I did not suggest that it is too expensive - merely that one cannot imagine 'owners' (as opposed to 'parents') bring expected to comply. Education is compulsory, showing is voluntary - and they often grizzle at the cost of other peripheral stuff such as annual showing registration, measuring, entry fees, stabling, Derv and most other things which cost . . ! I'm totally in agreement with your desire to clean up the job, I can assure you.
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Post by wink wink on Sept 11, 2017 7:38:45 GMT
Morning All doping is a big problem, i think the idea of paying a levy would work as it seems everyone wants it stopped , BUT we need to test the professionals as well as the non and we need to test for the new generation of drugs, as i have already stated all you need to do is catch 1 high profile person on the new generation of drugs and it should clean it up albeit just for a while, i think it has to be under 1 umbrella and carried out by people not from any of the "showing" societies but by a FEI steward there are stories flying round re NPS and 2 positive test results but nothing on website - at least BSPS prints a name and shame list
my heart goes out to these poor equines
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Post by ponymum on Sept 11, 2017 9:01:36 GMT
I Once suspected a local pony was doped in the Hoys/rihs qualifiers so to see the reaction of the owners/ amateur producer , spread a rumour that there was to be drugs testing at the next Hoys qualifier. Low and behold the pony was entered, was at the show , but didnt present itself for the class!!! Point proven I would say. This was at least 5 yrs ago , it goes on ,we all know it does , but I believe they use substances that do not show up on the current drugs test , so how do we catch them??
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 11, 2017 9:28:40 GMT
Morning All doping is a big problem, i think the idea of paying a levy would work as it seems everyone wants it stopped , BUT we need to test the professionals as well as the non and we need to test for the new generation of drugs, as i have already stated all you need to do is catch 1 high profile person on the new generation of drugs and it should clean it up albeit just for a while, i think it has to be under 1 umbrella and carried out by people not from any of the "showing" societies but by a FEI steward there are stories flying round re NPS and 2 positive test results but nothing on website - at least BSPS prints a name and shame list my heart goes out to these poor equines Previously, the NPS has printed dope testing results. Be patient! For years I have stated that there should be a 'governing body' for dope monitoring, working with and for ALL relevant Societies & Associations (ie: not just show orientated ones - and managed in the manner of the JMB, which was set up in 1934 by forward thinking persons (then entitled The Joint Measurement Scheme - and always with unbiased, qualified Veterinary presences on the Board).
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Post by gillwales on Sept 11, 2017 10:01:50 GMT
Drug testing does not always have to be done via a blood test, it can be done vis a hair test, any drugs taken within the previous 6 months would leave a marker in the hair strand,; therefore it would be possible to test all entries for HOYS , the cost could be included in the entry fee, therefore to actually gain entrance for your pony prior to the show it would have to be proven to be drug free, once banned this should be a lifetime ban. With Vets having to write what medications have been given to ponies/ horses in their passports this would be a sure fired system. I agree with Caroline that this could be overseen by a central monitoring board along with the JMS. in fact the remit of the JMS could be enlarged to cover this and therefore save on administrating costs.
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Objection procedure
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Post by Objection procedure on Sept 11, 2017 11:04:00 GMT
Good Morning Wink Wink, thanks for contributing to this thread and getting the discussion going. We seem to be singing from the same hymn book, you and many others have offered excellent ideas about how this massive problem could, and should, be tackled and I would hope to think that this thread may possibly help to start the discussion.
My fear, however, is that everyone knows how rife the problem is, and the blind eye that has been turned over recent years, will continue to be so. A few cursory tests each year for ACP and bute will go nowhere towards getting close to the real problem which is so ingrained in today’s showing.
We need to keep talking, albeit as guests, it is the only way to make the societies recognise that we have a problem.
Personally I think an independent body and a levy per show, like the first aid levy, sounds like a fantastic way to deal with the issue, BUT the new drugs would have to be included in future testing.
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Post by gillwales on Sept 11, 2017 19:37:09 GMT
It would hold far more weight if people did not post has guests. If you want to change things I will state what I have numerous times, go to your AGMs, that is the place to change things not social media
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Post by wink wink on Sept 12, 2017 6:48:52 GMT
morning dear gillwales - lots of us every year stand up and ask at our AGM for more testing - its good to see now that Royal Windsor dope test , but i do not think the Royal Highland has been done now for a few years- it used to be a rich source to catch them, the problem also is that everyone knows who the dope tester is and have seen at one very large show show they turned up a day early to "get the lay of the land" so those that dont play by the rules spotted this and didn't go in how do we address this ? maybe a group of retired equine vets i dont know but something has to be done
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 12, 2017 7:11:27 GMT
Wink Wink - is there a particular section which you feel should be targeted? (ie: - for some reason you specifically mentioned the RHAS?) Is there a section which troubled you in your observations at other shows this year?
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Objection procedure
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Post by Objection procedure on Sept 12, 2017 8:11:55 GMT
I would also add that if, as a matter of course, every winner at HOYS was tested people would have to think very carefully about what they do
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Post by gillwales on Sept 12, 2017 9:23:02 GMT
morning dear gillwales - lots of us every year stand up and ask at our AGM for more testing - its good to see now that Royal Windsor dope test , but i do not think the Royal Highland has been done now for a few years- it used to be a rich source to catch them, the problem also is that everyone knows who the dope tester is and have seen at one very large show show they turned up a day early to "get the lay of the land" so those that dont play by the rules spotted this and didn't go in how do we address this ? maybe a group of retired equine vets i dont know but something has to be done As you might have seen from an earlier post I wrote on this thread; it is possible to detect substances via a hair test; well I know it is done in humans and see no reason why that sort of test could not be transferred to animals. If you think that a specific show is a "hot-bed" have you considered writing to the committee that runs it? I am certain that they would be horrified to hear of your opinions, especially if more than one person wrote to them about it. But you stand no chance of changing matters by writing via social media and especially using a guest name; it holds little weight and just serves to stir trouble. Neither does it protect you from litigation as your identity can be found out if someone feels slandered or liabled.
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Post by Well Said on Sept 12, 2017 9:56:01 GMT
Well said gillwales - whilst I am not naive to suggest that doping is not an issue (in any sport not just showing) those of us who have been involved in the sport for many years all know of cases, some deliberate and some not. Of course we should all support dope testing however we also know that in today's social media driven world people can also point fingers or suggest false information for other purposes or spread rumours with no real evidence or facts. Take information to the appropriate societies or lobbying through AGMS is the best advice.
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Post by WINK WINK on Sept 12, 2017 9:58:03 GMT
Gillwales please were have i even caused the statement" Neither does it protect you from litigation as your identity can be found out if someone feels slandered or liabled. " i think you are being harsh also Caroline , when then was the RHAS last have dope testing ?
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Objection procedure
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Post by Objection procedure on Sept 12, 2017 10:54:08 GMT
I started the thread not to point fingers or cause trouble but to guage the feeling of others regarding this issue in our "sport". I have been to a particular society, given my name and made an objection, but there is no procedure process in place!
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Post by gillwales on Sept 12, 2017 12:12:44 GMT
Gillwales please were have i even caused the statement" Neither does it protect you from litigation as your identity can be found out if someone feels slandered or liabled. " i think you are being harsh also Caroline , when then was the RHAS last have dope testing ? I was not accusing you of anything, it was merely advice to you and others who post under a guest name, there have been posts on this forum where those making statements have left themselves open to civil action, and very possibly criminal action too as the Police take a very dim view on some online activity these days, especially bullying which I have seen occur here. I think that some people think that they can say what they like and hide behind a guest name, and no I was no including you in that sentence. What I was saying is that if concerns are raised in the open they have far more strength. So I was not being harsh to you.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 12, 2017 14:52:43 GMT
Gillwales please were have i even caused the statement" Neither does it protect you from litigation as your identity can be found out if someone feels slandered or liabled. " i think you are being harsh also Caroline , when then was the RHAS last have dope testing ? Excuse me? I have a surname. I have no idea who you are, so you are way off the mark to address this to my Christian name alone. Particularly as I'm open and honest - and able to use my christened name without (hopefully) fear of retribution! Additionally, please remember that it is up to the SOCIETIES and ASSOCIATIONS to implement a Body Fluid Sampling at venues, not the actual SHOW Venues, which merely (and very helpfully) provide the additional assistance (ie: Suitable stabling for the /[Measuring Facility]/ drug sampling facility etc.). Rest assured, under the rules of Societies and Associations, Body Fluid sampling does take place at many venues. The RHAS being one of them.
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Post by kateanne0 on Sept 12, 2017 18:08:10 GMT
Hi Big Big problem the problem is that they have moved on from the "usual" products , now , and the procedure has not yet caught up with them yet,and they do not test i am led to understand for these new "drugs" For me all they need to do is pay the money and test 1 person for all the substances - i know it could be expensive but all you need to do is catch one on the new drugs, i feel their should be an umbrella stand alone, arm which would cover all the society's and HOYS classes ( do they not test HOYS qualifiers) and should be manned by someone NOT and i repeat not involved with any of the showing society's comments please I am certainly against any form of doping to any animal. I may be being a bit dim here but everyone keeps saying the testing is not up to date and therefore these new drugs wouldn't necessarily be found on testing. What concerns me is that no one is actually naming the new drugs? Has anyone checked the FEI list to make sure they are not listed? If the testing wouldn't 'find' the drugs then is it worthwhile testing for something that can't be 'found'? Perhaps drug testing, for as many 'drugs' as can possibly be found, could be carried out for say the top 3 places in major qualifying classes and championships? An extra £2 per entry for these classes is not too high a price to pay for a clean sport? Ideally it would be fantastic if every class could be tested but I fear that time and resources would not allow for this. An independent testing body would be the ideal solution with all results being published.
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