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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 18, 2017 9:38:17 GMT
Well said, "Well-Said"! Very sensible pre-HOYS advice. Classes (not to mention [younger] pony/rider confidence) have been lost by over-zealous 'hollering'. No matter how much preparation is done, animals can still bottle it.
Back in the close confinement of the flappy 'tent' at Wembley I lost a class most definitely due to the racket & razzmatazz coming from behind the line-up. Results were called in reverse order and by the time the 3rd placed was called, the chap I was riding (by then we were standing partially on our own) simply couldn't hold it together any longer. Heart-breaking - and so hard when an ambitious owner is involved, too. This was a Welsh Cob who had previously been shown as a colt & young stallion at the Royal Welsh, with all the hype that goes with it. They have long memories, ponies.
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Post by gillwales on Sept 18, 2017 9:51:58 GMT
GillWales perhaps you have missed the point that show organisers are guilty of putting animals under too much pressure and encouraging doping. Surely this is the basis of the argument in most cases? I'm not sure why show organisers are responsible for the way competitors treat their horses/ ponies. I do think that education of the animals has a great amount to do with how an animal copes in the ring. The only time where I feel show organisers have some responsibility is in the locating of stands around the rings. I have shown at one show where they had an abseiling tower, about 20 foot high, on the corner of the ring with people launching themselves off of the top, understandably most of the horses/ ponies took exception to this. There was another county show that sited a tree eating machine adjacent to the riding pony ring, it was extremely noisy and there was chippings flying everywhere... not to mention in another area the flying gazebo, even the quietest of my ponies took exception to that! But that aside it is down to the exhibitors to make certain that their animals have seen enough of life not to worry about these things. The other factor in all of this is the temperament that a pony/ horse is born with. Inbreeding does not help with this, and there are certainly some bloodlines where the animals tend to be a lot sharper than others; I suspect what doping takes place does to these animals. We see time and time again people wanting a short cut to getting a shiny coat/ weight loss/ weight gain/ way of going etc, the answer is to all of these, experience, hard work and skill. To those adults who dope ponies for children to ride or anyone else other than themselves, I hope they can look themselves in the face when something goes wrong, which it can do. Whist this is a subject that deserves to be debated, it needs to be done in a constructive way, the OP asked how to report it and what happens, this was explained ; in details by several knowledgeable people, who in some cases had rude replies. Other members gave their experiences when their animals had been randomly selected. Costs have been public and yet the OP still wanted a magic bullet.
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sarahp
Happy to help
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Post by sarahp on Sept 18, 2017 9:58:37 GMT
If shown IH, he would have been expected to react to the racket at RWAS by showing off his very best big trot, as that's when the noise is! As you know, they have very long memories.
I've had some at the top Finals who couldn't care a stuff, in fact one went on to perform in the Olympia finale without turning a hair and that's pretty scarey! I was so proud of her. And others who couldn't cope at all and have lost out because of it, quite rightly I think. So I've been there and know what it's like. Surely part of judging should be whether an animal can cope under duress or can't? There are too degrees of showing their stress.
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Post by catkin on Sept 18, 2017 10:41:26 GMT
Sarahp - good old Angie, she really didn't mind at all, did she?! I think you can definitely help or hinder a pony with how you introduce it to such situations. I am not a fan, for example of some of the 'championship show' evening performances with lots of whooping and yooping. However, some ponies are definitely pre-disposed to dealing with things like this better than others. And, its not always the ones you expect. For years we had ponies in the finale at Olympia. As Sarahp has noted, that really is an extremely buzzy place to be. Mostly you'd know who would cope and who would not and we always paired up an established animal with a newbie. However, there were a few occasions where we did get it very wrong with ponies that were extremely quiet at home, but for some reason couldn't cope there. Interestingly, the slightly sharper, more forward thinking ponies were often the best. Within two performances they knew music changes and would get most excited when they knew they were moving off about half a bar before they actually had to.
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Objection procedure
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Post by Objection procedure on Sept 18, 2017 17:02:36 GMT
Well GillWales you have truly shocked me again, I quote you below..... the OP asked how to report it and what happens, this was explained ; in details by several knowledgeable people, who in some cases had rude replies. Other members gave their experiences when their animals had been randomly selected. Costs have been public and yet the OP still wanted a magic bullet. Read more: horsegossip.proboards.com/thread/212564/doping?page=4#ixzz4t3CuUxe7The OP wanted nothing of the sort, the OP knows full well how to make an objection but the OP found that in the case of doping the procedure is not as straightforward as in the case of an over height pony, the OP is not on some sort of glorified witch hunt, the OP shows her animals clean and the OP just wanted to guage other people's opinions on the use of dope in today's showing. In short the OP knows there is no such thing as a magic bullet and is a little tired of competing against animals under the influence. The OP is now going to leave hg for good as this is clearly not a place for open discussion, once again I bid you goodbye.
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Objection procedure
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Post by Objection procedure on Sept 18, 2017 17:30:03 GMT
And for the record the OP has not been rude to anybody on this site
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Post by Picked on Sept 18, 2017 19:52:59 GMT
No animal is safe if it stays overnight on any of our showgrounds.. they can be "got at" and equally if they have day stables or stand on lorries whilst carers socialise and we all know only too well that it happens. Dope testing can now be done by taking a sample of hair which will accurately detect and show not only what what they have been given on the day but also over quite a long period of time.
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Post by WINK WINK on Sept 19, 2017 8:34:07 GMT
Objection Procedure - well said nobody has been rude - i too have been "Virtually-jumped"on , this is in my mind a very very serious problem, think on for a moment those people who dont think it goes on what if you buy pony/Horse from an exhibitor and pony/horse has done fab in the ring and was super when you tried it both at home and at show, take it home child then get on and it decks her/him and jockey ends up in wheelchair i know the chance of this happening but it could sorry to repeat myself but they must test now for outside the box and all they need to to is catch 1 high profile person and that should warn them
i think the hair way could be the way forward, please instead of bickering between our-self lets stand together and stamp it out
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Post by ponymad79 on Sept 19, 2017 10:54:59 GMT
Sorry to be gloomy but you will never stamp it out it has been going on since my children were in ponies and i now have grandchildren riding .People with influence in the sport will be looked after so sadly i don't know the answer but would love to see something more pro active so that at least those who do dope will be more nervous about doing so .
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 19, 2017 10:55:51 GMT
Over time, animals of both "High" and "low" -profile persons have been tested, most are GENUINELY clean. Some are not. Some most definitely have been caught. Very prominently, in Racing, too. And, you only have to look to the (Junior) S-J scene and you'll find canny folk who seem able to use stuff which appears to be undetectable. It is muted that these people receive, on occasion, large sums of money for their so-called 'service' (huh!).
If I may suggest, I don't think that anyone is intentionally "jumping on" any poster here. It's just that, people have can written stuff, carefully and with experience, but the questions come back the same, as if experiences/ suggestions haven't actually been read properly.
I would re-iterate though, as has been said by others inc. GW, keep going to the relevant Society/ies & Association/s with any suspicions / conceptual ideas. Some ARE pro-active.
As for animals being 'done' at shows in stables by the devious, one of mine, a super and very successful horse belonging to lovely owners, was most definitely 'got at' overnight. I went to work him in the morning (he was usually quite a sharp number) and bless him, he was well under a spell. There can be some evil folk around.
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Post by thegroom on Sept 19, 2017 11:50:44 GMT
The hair test sadly won't work as you can legally administer drugs all season for trimming, the vet, dentist etc.
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Post by Carrots&Mints on Sept 19, 2017 11:55:00 GMT
Its a shame that people will stoop so low for a rosette
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Post by ill advised on Sept 19, 2017 19:59:15 GMT
Sorry to see you shot down flames Objection Procedure. Sadly, the inevitable happens - you raise an issue - an extremely important one you get dismissed. Quite frankly, I can't believe the attitude of some people. How can we bring about change and have an adult, civilised conversation without the inevitable accusations - being a bad sport, or airing our grievances on this this forum. It seems it is ok for some to say exactly what they want but no one else can. I sympathise with your predicament - I am sure I know the pony (ponies) you are talking about and I understand how extremely hard it must have been for you to see it week after week during the season. Even more so, when it robs you of your rightful placing.
Seemingly, this is a problem people aren't motivated to get involved with - believing that the Societies are there and have 'it covered.' Sadly, when you see an animal in an evening performance with his head on the floor or one fall down outside the arena - it isn't. Gold star for having a go.
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Hope the ticket was worth it
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Post by Hope the ticket was worth it on Sept 19, 2017 20:58:30 GMT
Unfortunately as I stated earlier Showing is now all about the Golden Ticket. A quick fix is all that's needed. 4 year old novices broken in the spring at HOYS in the October, forced into a mouth full of metal weeks after being mouthed. Given syringe after syringe of instant calmers, ACP and god knows what else to "Take the edge off" just to qualify!
I question whether there is a place in showing for the lay person who just enjoys it??
I recently enquired about a pony that had come up for sale a "NEW" face on the scene. I was questioned by the owner/breeder Do you use a producer, because we want her done properly. Really are you that naïve to think that producers do things properly?? Some may but lots do not. Yes you will get the results and if that's what you want for your baby pony then that's fine but do you want it loved, nurtured and brought on correctly with a solid education then unfortunately that's not the way of the current producer (Many of them only been on the scene two minutes).
Lots of stories have annoyed me this year and yes they may just be stories, but what if just one of these was correct,that poor pony has suffered just to try and gain the Golden Ticket. 10 syringes of Calmer to one pony Vodka given to a M&M First Ridden ponies going into urinary retention because they are totally overcooked.
What is needed to curb the trend is every Qualifying Class at every qualifying show should have a Vet on site that will sample either urine or blood from a sample of horses selected. If a positive sample is detected then Owner, Producer and Horse should have an automatic ban from all societies for minimum of 12 months or more depending on severity of collected sample.
The cost of random sampling should be covered jointly by Society membership's, Sponsorship and Grandstand Media.
The problem is now to big just to rely on a member of the public putting their money where their mouth is and reporting it as suggested by some. This is now becoming a serious welfare issue and cannot be seen to be tolerated by any of the Societies.
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Post by Make a start.. on Sept 19, 2017 21:40:54 GMT
What would be a start is for there to be a statement at the end of every entry form that says 'by entering this show I understand that my equine may be subject to a drugs test by any means decided by the on duty vet' and the entrant should have to physically tick this box in order for their entry to be accepted
It may not stop many but it would be a start, may make a few people take a deep breath and think
Look how many ponies are going sweetly in snaffles this year after rumours that one society has taken a dim view of Wilkies - suddenly ponies who 'could not cope' without their Wilkies last year are bobbing along happily in snaffles this year, that is surely not coincidence
The trouble with any sort of clamping down on anything is that the society may bottle it if too many people threaten to walk away and qualifiers may be taken away (look at the ruckus over the hat situation a few years back) so if something is to be done it needs to be across the board
Its no good just saying the problem is too insurmountable or expensive or impractical, a bit like the measuring discussion or things will never change
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Post by Philippa on Sept 20, 2017 1:15:48 GMT
I don't think there needs to be a tick box of any description as by competing under the Society rules you should already be fully aware that there is a procedure for testing for banned substances. I personally think there should just be more testing in place. I agree each qualifying pony should be tested upon completion of the class/championship (it can take quite a while to get a urine sample unlike in racing where water Is restricted for a good length of time before a race then is offered in abundance in the vets box).
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Post by wink wink on Sept 20, 2017 6:21:53 GMT
Hope the ticket was worth it - I salute you , what sense you speak,
please HOYS do look at this, we all know its cost money to put the HOYS on but could not some of the levy money be used to dope test at the qualifiers, i could be wrong but at BAKEWELL there were over 50 entered in the Part bred qualifier , so thats a lot of levy money
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Post by kateanne0 on Sept 20, 2017 7:38:25 GMT
What would be a start is for there to be a statement at the end of every entry form that says 'by entering this show I understand that my equine may be subject to a drugs test by any means decided by the on duty vet' and the entrant should have to physically tick this box in order for their entry to be accepted It may not stop many but it would be a start, may make a few people take a deep breath and think Look how many ponies are going sweetly in snaffles this year after rumours that one society has taken a dim view of Wilkies - suddenly ponies who 'could not cope' without their Wilkies last year are bobbing along happily in snaffles this year, that is surely not coincidence The trouble with any sort of clamping down on anything is that the society may bottle it if too many people threaten to walk away and qualifiers may be taken away (look at the ruckus over the hat situation a few years back) so if something is to be done it needs to be across the board Its no good just saying the problem is too insurmountable or expensive or impractical, a bit like the measuring discussion or things will never change I made a similar comment on a statement on the entry form. Read Janet Bushell's and others comments on previous pages. I checked BSPS rules and there is a statement regarding doping in the rules. The wilkie bit situation has been around for years! Not checked rules this year as have stopped showing. Personally, the wilkie bit, in good hands, is no worse than some of the other harsher bits that are used! I've heard of one particular producer 'nicking' ponies mouths each side to stop them coming over the bit and keep their heads steady! Hearsay, but I've heard it so often its seems believable? There are lots of other practices used as well to keep the heads steady! The whole showing scene needs to be looked at; probably a task that is just too great. However, it is up to the Societies/Associations to take these discussions seriously. The ' regular' exhibitors i.e.not professional producers, make up a large amount of the entry fees and their money is taken, so note should be taken seriously of their concerns. Regarding amateurs, there are lots of 'sponsored' or ambassadors for various products STILL being rewarded as amateurs this year when they are definitely no longer eligible. At the end of the day until the relevant bodies LISTEN and INVESTIGATE, with or without putting money down, things will not change.
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Post by Well said on Sept 20, 2017 7:45:29 GMT
Actually I disagree - not that there is a problem but with this accusation that it is always Producers that are at fault and in trying to have a sensible, adult conversation about the subject it is when it is implied as by 'hope the ticket was worth it' that it is producers who are always at fault. There are some dodgy ones of course but there are also some very experienced ones who do a very good job and do not resort to drugs or calmers so wide sweeping statements do not help the case for coming up with a more rigorous system which we are all in favour of. In my experience it is often inexperienced home produced people who queue up for these so called 'magic calmers' and I don't mean the brand! Using them inappropriately and not using looking at other things such as feed as sarahp suggested. I have seen ponies overdosed on these which has the complete opposite effect and yes it might not be illegal but I would suggest it is just as damaging and can cause long term effects. So please don't turn what is a serious discussion into a producer witch hunt there is a lot to learn from the good ones and I would suggest they would be as equally keen to get rid of the bad ones as in any profession.
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Post by catkin on Sept 20, 2017 9:54:51 GMT
Totally agree, Well Said
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 20, 2017 11:25:58 GMT
A quick glance over a coffee, at a selection of RULE BOOKS for various Societies & Associations for which I Judge (and previously Produced into/Competed under those Rules), proves that there is unity between [almost all] the Showing Bodies as regards to Drugs Testing.
Here I quote the 'preface' on the topic from the 2017 NPS Showing & Competition Rules, Rule B, Page 20 and onward. "Rules for Drug Testing". Warning to Members.
It can be found that ALL Sections on "DOPE TESTING" from numerous Societies & associations are prefixed with the following, almost verbatim:-
"Members and other Exhibitors are advised that any Drugs Testing carried out by the NPS at NPS Shows or Affiliated shows will be in accordance with these rules.
"in common with other similar bodies, the NPS takes a very serious view of doping, whether intentional or unintentional, having particular regard to the safety of children. The BSHA adds, . . and vulnerable adults. Members should be aware that many proprietary feeds and preparations contain Prohibited Substances as do many foods such as chocolate. Prohibited Substances can be absorbed through the skin and they are also contained in some homeopathic and herbal remedies". . . . .
And so on. For three pages, with 5 sub-headings and 33 itemised sub-passages. (My grateful acknowledgement to the NPS for the quote here)
If people do not possess Rule Books/are not Members of Societies/Associations, it is very easy to use Google, read the passages and see for yourselves, the general uniformity.
I don't think I have EVER NOT seen on an entry form for any competition (both in the Schedule and the part where the exhibitor signs) words to the effect of :- "Acceptance of the provisions of these General Regulations shall be a condition of entry " (this gratefully quoted from the Livestock schedule of the RHAS) . . and, where signing . ." I agree to accept the Rules and Regulations of . . . etc."
So, that is the 'tick box' already ticked, as it were. The exhibitor (or his agent) who signs this and then knowingly flaunts rules (any rule) is, in effect, acting unlawfully, if that's not too strong a statement.
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Objection procedure
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Post by Objection procedure on Sept 20, 2017 11:29:36 GMT
Wink Wink, I hope the ticket is worth it and others, it appears some of us are prepared to admit there is a serious problem which needs addressing as a matter of some urgency. I am sure none of us think it is just the producers or just the amateurs but that it is endemic in modern showing. It must be time to address it. I don't think you will ever get all qualifiers to have testers but I do think that if every winner at HOYS/RIHS was tested and that say 6 or 8 qualifying shows had a random test in half a dozen classes it might make people think twice. We need to keep making a noise. I for one would be very happy to pay a testing levy on every entry.
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Post by wink wink on Sept 20, 2017 11:44:41 GMT
Wink Wink, I hope the ticket is worth it and others, it appears some of us are prepared to admit there is a serious problem which needs addressing as a matter of some urgency. I am sure none of us think it is just the producers or just the amateurs but that it is endemic in modern showing. It must be time to address it. I don't think you will ever get all qualifiers to have testers but I do think that if every winner at HOYS/RIHS was tested and that say 6 or 8 qualifying shows had a random test in half a dozen classes it might make people think twice. We need to keep making a noise. I for one would be very happy to pay a testing levy on every entry.
very very well put
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Hope the ticket is worth it
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Post by Hope the ticket is worth it on Sept 20, 2017 15:27:02 GMT
Not suggesting at all its just Producers, and not at all interested in finger pointing. The Welfare and Wellbeing of the Show Animal is paramount in this debate. Of course every horse or pony owner is capable of using inappropriate substances on their horses and ponies but do they fully understand the damage they are doing to them said animals, I fear not and for what the accolade of attending Hickstead or the NEC! Random Testing MUST be introduced and as a Horse Lover I'm sure for example the sponsorship from Lemieux for La Liga Consistency award where you will received a saddle pad and a fully loaded grooming kit, money like this that is so generously donated from larger Companies can be redirected into sorting out the larger issue of Welfare.
Is it just an issue of Cost or are the Societies frightened to rock the boat??
Something has to be done.
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Post by mcnaughty on Sept 20, 2017 15:28:10 GMT
Surely the threat of testing should be enough if it was routinely carried out? If the societies said that at EVERY show at least one animal would be tested then this would go a long way to deter? One test if subsidised by every competitor by £1 would easily cover the test. Someone wrote above that the tester was well known and was seen wandering the show ground the day before? Sorry but this stinks of warning off those who are knowingly abusing the 'system'.
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Post by mcnaughty on Sept 20, 2017 15:41:58 GMT
A quick glance over a coffee, at a selection of RULE BOOKS for various Societies & Associations for which I Judge (and previously Produced into/Competed under those Rules), proves that there is unity between [almost all] the Showing Bodies as regards to Drugs Testing. Here I quote the 'preface' on the topic from the 2017 NPS Showing & Competition Rules, Rule B, Page 20 and onward. "Rules for Drug Testing". Warning to Members. It can be found that ALL Sections on "DOPE TESTING" from numerous Societies & associations are prefixed with the following, almost verbatim:- "Members and other Exhibitors are advised that any Drugs Testing carried out by the NPS at NPS Shows or Affiliated shows will be in accordance with these rules. "in common with other similar bodies, the NPS takes a very serious view of doping, whether intentional or unintentional, having particular regard to the safety of children. The BSHA adds, . . and vulnerable adults. Members should be aware that many proprietary feeds and preparations contain Prohibited Substances as do many foods such as chocolate. Prohibited Substances can be absorbed through the skin and they are also contained in some homeopathic and herbal remedies". . . . . And so on. For three pages, with 5 sub-headings and 33 itemised sub-passages. (My grateful acknowledgement to the NPS for the quote here) If people do not possess Rule Books/are not Members of Societies/Associations, it is very easy to use Google, read the passages and see for yourselves, the general uniformity. I don't think I have EVER NOT seen on an entry form for any competition (both in the Schedule and the part where the exhibitor signs) words to the effect of :- "Acceptance of the provisions of these General Regulations shall be a condition of entry " (this gratefully quoted from the Livestock schedule of the RHAS) . . and, where signing . ." I agree to accept the Rules and Regulations of . . . etc." So, that is the 'tick box' already ticked, as it were. The exhibitor (or his agent) who signs this and then knowingly flaunts rules (any rule) is, in effect, acting unlawfully, if that's not too strong a statement. It is all very well to copy and paste the rule books on here, but the problem is that the societies are NOT testing regularly and that is the problem, not the rules.
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Post by Well Said on Sept 20, 2017 16:06:19 GMT
At the risk of repeating what has already been said by very knowledgeable contributers routine drug testing IS carried out at all the major championship shows and most County shows. The point as I see it of the original poster and continued debate was how to address the issue of suspecting a fellow competitor of using illegal drugs, something that perhaps there is not a policy for and would need to be handled very carefully but perhaps should be considered by the societies. Sorry mcnaughty but as someone who runs smaller show it is just not feasible to drug test at every show and I am not really convinced that that is where the problem lies, I am sure it is at the bigger qualifying shows and championship shows where there is more likely to be abuse.
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Post by kateanne0 on Sept 20, 2017 18:43:05 GMT
At the risk of repeating what has already been said by very knowledgeable contributers routine drug testing IS carried out at all the major championship shows and most County shows. The point as I see it of the original poster and continued debate was how to address the issue of suspecting a fellow competitor of using illegal drugs, something that perhaps there is not a policy for and would need to be handled very carefully but perhaps should be considered by the societies. Sorry mcnaughty but as someone who runs smaller show it is just not feasible to drug test at every show and I am not really convinced that that is where the problem lies, I am sure it is at the bigger qualifying shows and championship shows where there is more likely to be abuse. I agree. It is the major qualifying shows and Championship shows (all societies annual Champs) that need attention. It needs to be clear that winners and maybe 2nd will be tested in every class. In an earlier thread I suggested a £2 levy for all exhibitors that exhibit in the major classes; perhaps that should run across the board for all classes so that exhibitors feel they are contributing to a cause that so many feel strongly about? Don't just stop at the qualifiers, do the actual classes at the 3 big venues! Also, the Hickstead RI, Olympia and Grand Stand Media (HOYS) could cover the cost at their own shows? The cost to exhibit there is so expensive there must be a bit of money left in the pot to put towards anti-doping initiatives? P.S.I am not saying that doping only happens in the prestige classes! Doping needs eradicating.
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Post by kateanne0 on Sept 20, 2017 18:51:08 GMT
At the risk of repeating what has already been said by very knowledgeable contributers routine drug testing IS carried out at all the major championship shows and most County shows. The point as I see it of the original poster and continued debate was how to address the issue of suspecting a fellow competitor of using illegal drugs, something that perhaps there is not a policy for and would need to be handled very carefully but perhaps should be considered by the societies. Sorry mcnaughty but as someone who runs smaller show it is just not feasible to drug test at every show and I am not really convinced that that is where the problem lies, I am sure it is at the bigger qualifying shows and championship shows where there is more likely to be abuse. I agree. There needs to be a rule for the reporting of potential doping at the show on the day. However, as someone else has said on this thread, there needs to be one body overseeing the processes and collating results onto one central site. Maybe the Showing Council?
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Post by Blue blue on Sept 20, 2017 18:54:50 GMT
Funny how a very high profile horse failed a dope test at Windsor and it's been swept under the carpet! The societies just aren't interested they will look after their own
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