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Post by Curious123 on Sept 7, 2017 19:47:13 GMT
We've recently retired our gorgeous boy from ridden showing for two reasons, firstly because we feel he would enjoy seeing out his ridden career with some jumping (he loves it) so very lightheartedly we're off show jumping maybe a bit of eventing/cross country maybe we'l even dip our toe back in the showing scene with some working hunter classes. And secondly because this years conformation scores have been so bad!
Hes 13 now, legs clean as a whistle - I have to admit hes never stood well - hes a horse that looks amazing under saddle and when ridden, but can stand like a donkey for the conf judge BUT having said that hes always scored consistently around the late 30's up to mid 40's give our take thats just his average over the years....untill this year. His back has dipped slightly, and his weight and muscle tone even with the same work/feed/routine has changed so you expect a lower score.
What has shocked me though is just how huge the difference between the 2 scores now is, late 40's for ride (in more than one case the highest in the class) and scores in the 20's for conf
I find it a bit sad that older quality horses/ponies but not quite veterans are penalised for age so severely, yet still score so highly for ride. Its almost agest! I'm curious of others views on older ponies/horses still showing and at what age others have retired theirs xxx
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Post by Philippa on Sept 7, 2017 20:14:13 GMT
I'm having the same debate with myself about one of our ponies. She's also 13 but really doesn't look it. She's lost no muscle or condition and other than maybe being a little more crests this year she looks amazing.
I'm trying to decide if I keep her going next season or send her to stud. My problem is that she's still the pony I want to take home even though there are younger ponies coming up the ranks.
I feel judges often overlook older ponies and I much prefer when they don't ask the age of her.
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Post by Philippa on Sept 7, 2017 20:16:20 GMT
Oh and we are also going jumping lol, my HOYS SP is doing tiny tots plaited workers at countryside live 🙀🙀😲😲
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Post by toroakes92 on Sept 7, 2017 20:34:55 GMT
I feel that as long as they are still enjoying their job to let them keep going out. My 13h worker was 21 when I first rode him at HOYSe
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Post by Curious123 on Sept 7, 2017 20:46:48 GMT
Lovely that some get to extend their showing career but not the case for our boy sadly. To score 47 for ride (the highest) and 20 for conformation (the lowest) makes your mind up for you sadly, not that it matters in the scheme of things, we'l never part with him and he does have other strings to his bow so we'l just change route
A new adventure !
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Post by sure this is right on Sept 7, 2017 20:55:51 GMT
Carol gilbert Scott won Supreme at HOYS on her horse Fair Exchange - he was 18 if my memory serves me well.
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Post by gillwales on Sept 7, 2017 20:57:06 GMT
you can't really complain about a judge marking your pony down if it has muscle loss on it's back. You have the bonus of getting good ride marks
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Post by pipandwill on Sept 7, 2017 21:00:07 GMT
My old boy is 20 and still jumping hoys workers, his limbs are immpecable, and on numerous occasions his year he has scored 17 and 18/20 for conformation in his hoys workers, usually always gaining compliments for his age, however last weekend we got a 8/20! Would hate to think that was just because of his age! I think there is no reason why a older horse can't compete to a high level, and win! I hope most of mine go on for a long time successfully, I hope that by continuing not to over do it with them will prolong their careers, and I would hope a good judge would judge and older horse fairly.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Sept 8, 2017 6:13:34 GMT
My first reaction, backed up by many comments above, is that it all depends on how well or badly the individual animal ages.
A question for judges, which I'm not - what does asking the age of an entrant add, unless of course it's in a class with age definitions to check eligibility? Surely it should be judged on how it goes and then how it looks in the conformation phase regardless of its age? Curious123, there is not necessarily any correlation between scores in the two different phases as they are judging different aspects.
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Post by Curious123 on Sept 8, 2017 6:21:50 GMT
I totally agree as with us some age better than others!! but they 'usually' do ask the age in which case does or should the age reflect the conformation score...probably not. At the end of the day they want the best example of type to win it's just a shame for these older ponies who don't all have another 'bow' to their string
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Sept 8, 2017 6:29:54 GMT
Well yours obviously does as he jumps, and if he goes well on the flat you could dressage him too? Ponies too old to show any more are often great mounts for children who don't want to show anyway - we had a totally saintly Sec B years ago who used to jump round the plaited WH Final clear at Peterborough every year before we bought him at rising 14yo - and that was big! Daughter had lost her nerve on the wrong pony, and he brought her back to where she should be, a very rare boy who would gauge his way of going to the rider, slow and steady for anyone novice or nervous, and a top performance pony if asked. He hunted, PC'd and evented with my daughter and then with a loan home when he grew out of him but was one who would never be sold.
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Post by Philippa on Sept 8, 2017 7:06:02 GMT
This is our 13yr old SP on Sunday taking the reserve title in the Chairmans cup at NCPA POY. Not looking bad I don't think but would appreciate hearing what others think.
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Post by gillwales on Sept 8, 2017 7:24:47 GMT
At 13 for a LR sp he is not old. LR and FR hold their value when they get older as they tend to be safer ponies for the little ones. He looks like an ideal LR pony
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Post by Philippa on Sept 8, 2017 7:38:04 GMT
Believe me GW 13 is old nowadays in the qualifiers. Not many over 10 now!!!! 🙀🙀🙀🙀
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Post by chloesmum on Sept 8, 2017 7:40:10 GMT
I personally don't think 13 is old at all particularly in the workers but I think as has been said you need to be honest about conformation scores if a pattern is emerging. Is it just some judges or all? If you look at a HOYS catalague I feel sure many WHP will be in double figures age wise certainly in the pony classes, experience is worth so much when it comes to jumping! I do wonder if ponies age better than horses? Certainly those with native breeding seem to. We competed our Sec C at top level until he was 14 and then he went to stud for a couple of years he now competes in the SSADL classes which have been wonderful as it gives us the chance to still show him a little which he loves. He is now 19 but I am sure at 15 & 16 he could have still qualified for HOYS/RIHS but we made the decision that we didn't want to drag him round qualifiers or see him perhaps standing at the end of the line due to his age. Hard to answer your question as I don't think there is a definitive age, there are some amazing older animals still qualifying at top level I think you have to make the decision as to what is right for you and your horse, sounds like he loves his work and I am sure you love riding him so do what you enjoy and have fun.
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Post by gillwales on Sept 8, 2017 7:57:56 GMT
Believe me GW 13 is old nowadays in the qualifiers. Not many over 10 now!!!! 🙀🙀🙀🙀 The value of these ponies are to the parents of little ones if not the Judges. Although I do believe that these ponies are bred rather than made; what I'm trying to say is the nature is what they are born with; and if properly raised then that calm laid back- I like little people cannot be schooled into them, hence there are some lines that are prolific in these classes. One that comes to mind were the ponies by Orielton Aristocrat. If Judges have now shifted; which I have to say I find rather bizarre, especially since these ponies get little hard work, then I am surprized and rather shocked.
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Post by Curious123 on Sept 8, 2017 8:11:47 GMT
Stunning Philippa.. I'm wondering now if like chloesmum said ponies tend to age better than horses x
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Sept 8, 2017 8:30:47 GMT
gillwales I do so agree re nature being born not made, although that is necessary too but you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear if the raw material isn't right!
And chloesmum I do agree, natives seem to age slower than horses, although I'm sure the amount of work, particularly early on while they are young, must make a lot of difference. How long do some of the overweight 4 yos going round the qualifiers last in good health I wonder?
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Post by Philippa on Sept 8, 2017 8:43:56 GMT
Stunning Philippa.. I'm wondering now if like chloesmum said ponies tend to age better than horses x Thank you. We love her to bits and as Maisie gets a little older it's all starting to fall into place. I just think when judges ask ages in these classes and most are between 5 & 10 then I rock up with a 13 yr old they kind of dismiss her. I've been told this year she's gone coarse but I still prefer her to a lot I see
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Post by chloesmum on Sept 8, 2017 9:10:16 GMT
Philippa she looks lovely and a picture of health, the important thing as gillwales say's is also that Maisie is comfortable with her, these ponies are worth their weight in gold - also great that she does other things with her. I think realistically the show pony classes are the 'models' of the pony world and so perhaps do tend to be younger having said that there are several intermediates; hacks and certainly SHPS who are in double figures and doing really well still. I think as sarah and gillwales have said if you have a superb pony/horse to start with and it has not had injuries; been overshown with wear and tear and well cared for it will still be a 'superb' example as it is older but realistically most will show a little age (like us!) With regards to judges asking age I am not a judge but do have one in the family!!!! Not wanting to be her voice piece but I know one of her pet hates is when competitors knock several years off a ponies age when asked! She usually knows pony anyway! A pony like yours at 13 you would think 'wow' what great condition, telling people she was 6 or 7 judge might think, gosh it doesn't look so good for its age! Like ladies of a certain age we all may knock a couple of years off - but why be proud of looking great as you get older!
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Post by ponymum on Sept 8, 2017 9:18:27 GMT
Our old pony is 13/14 and was 6th at the rihs this year in shp section . My friend STARTED showing her ishp at age 13 , he qualified for HOYS in his 19th yr!!! I think you need to be objective as to how well your pony is ageing , my friends looked amazing , as does Philippas sp too. Just see how you go and remember veteran showing is also another avenue from 15 onwards xx
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Sept 8, 2017 11:15:45 GMT
chloesmum that's another argument for not asking ponies' ages, but just judging on what you see!
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Post by janetbushell on Sept 8, 2017 11:25:15 GMT
To me as a judge I ask the age as I feel this is relevant when assessing wear & tear - good conformation should show less wear & tear with age as the structure is correct for the job, and I "might" be more forgiving with my mark with an older animal than I would with a young one showing the same amount of wear & tear.
However, sometimes older animals show fat deposits, cresty necks & the like, which while not affecting the basic structure will mean the overall appearance is not what it once was when compared to a similar but younger animal.
We retired two of our SHPs at 16, one after RIHS & one from actually contesting these & HOYS qualifiers, as we did not want them to go down in the placings due to their age which we acknowledged was beginning to show - but they continued in other areas. Our Section A's last appearance at Olympia was age 13 & she went on to produce 3 lovely foals as an every other year breeder, continuing to show successfully I/H including winning a Bronze medal.
Like humans to me they are all different & there is no hard & fast rule on age, which, as they say "is only a number"
It often amuses me when children on small ponies are asked "how old is your pony?" reply "he's 15, but Mummy says I've got to say he's 9"
Actually for 15 he probably has excellent joints with little wear & tear for his age, but has a slightly disappointing amount for a 9 year old!
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Post by Philippa on Sept 8, 2017 11:30:55 GMT
I was told to say my pony was younger than she is by the same person who said she was coarse!!! We did in a couple of classes but to be honest I'm too honest and felt embarrassed doing so so we just say her age and that's that. Judges either like her or they dont!!😍
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Sept 8, 2017 12:05:53 GMT
Good point janetbushell re wear and tear, but surely the fat deposits you are talking about, which can be assessed purely by eye, should be a reason for the pony going down whatever the age?
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Post by Old ponies on Sept 8, 2017 12:17:46 GMT
Yealand Breeze is 16 and has qualified for 133shp at HOYS this year
I think it all comes down to how well they age, I think ponies that have been hammered at a young age do not have as longevity in the show ring, which Is why I think nowadays you get less older ponies in the ring because of the wear and tare they have had by the time they are 10.
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Post by chloesmum on Sept 8, 2017 12:19:53 GMT
Thank you Janet - think you have said what I was trying to say!! We were very proud last year when Jacob was pulled top and won a major open ridden class at Equifest (not a veteran class!) The funny bit was when the conformation judge, a very well respected NPS judge asked her how old he was and she replied 18 - he then said' no how old is the pony!!!' She took that as a great compliment as well! When he presented the rosettes he asked her what the pony was called and when she told him he smiled and said 'I remember judging him as a 4 year old at the Royal Welsh' he then went on to say how proud she should be of his condition. It made our year!
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Post by janetbushell on Sept 8, 2017 12:47:10 GMT
Good point janetbushell re wear and tear, but surely the fat deposits you are talking about, which can be assessed purely by eye, should be a reason for the pony going down whatever the age? Absolutely sarahp it would - what I was really trying to describe is that often with an older animal, even if it is not generally overweight, it can have an uneven distribution of "fat" pockets (probably as a result of past weight issues or "incorrect" (!) management) which become more pronounced, producing a slightly lumpy appearance on an otherwise correct animal, particularly on the hindquarters and neck & back areas. Edited to add that due to expense my animals were fed "straights" & only received the supplements they required as an individual. I moved to balancers when I had a larger, very mixed herd, as this saved me time when preparing feeds. However I always followed the old Pony Club adage: feed for work done, not work to BE done & regularly assessed each animal as an individual for condition. One animal dropped weight drastically when travelling to the first show of the season after a winter without competing (nothing for Open ponies in those days) so would carry a little more weight in February than was ideal, as I knew it would go in March, one Welsh pony would need to be very carefully fed as soon as a blade of spring grass appeared, etc etc. All continued to look/do well into double figures but I do think that owners need to be realistic about why animals may begin to see lower type/conformation marks - it might not be purely down to the actual age, but a combination of other factors including what was previously seen as a slight structural fault, becoming more pronounced with age.
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Post by maxandpaddy on Sept 8, 2017 13:06:01 GMT
Phewww back on the pc with my password! ...hence why i was posting as guest (cant remember it) The main thing I see with the saddle off for our boy is the more pronounced withers/dip in his back, but like I said hes always looked better ridden than stripped. All of chaps champs he scored well for ride and really badly for comf - bar the one class where they'd left the performance jumps in the ring and he saw them so went into whooohoooo we're jumping mode! We were in hysterics but it confirmed the change in direction was his choice too! He got to Fridays evening performance which was a lovely ending to his career with yep ...the highest ridden mark by quite a margin and the lowest conformation score
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Sept 8, 2017 14:35:26 GMT
Agreed re balancers - the best invention for natives ever in my book although developed originally for TB youngstock growing too fast. I used to show mine IH off grass and balancer only.
When I was a child the Colonel who ran the local riding school used to mix a big heap of chaff, oats and bran with a shovel on the floor of the feedroom and every animal was fed this in varying amounts, from childrens' ponies to cobs to hunters. How things change!
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