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Post by ineedhelp on Oct 23, 2017 21:03:16 GMT
Just needing some helpful advice.
There is a property i am interested in, stables /school / grazing etc, but no accommodation.
We spoke to the estate agent, and he informed us that the owners had tried to obtain planning for a temporary dwelling in 2014 that had been refused. Upon investigating I found out that although they had specified it was due to business expansion and security purposes, the council couldn't justify a need for it.
So I would like to know what the best way to go about this is please. We would be more than happy with a static or similar to that.
Our need is pretty similar though, it would be for security purposes as we have high value animals.
We have never had to do this before, and other than the no accommodation problem, the yard is perfect - and as we probably all know these things come along few and far between!
Any advice would be unbelievably appreciated!
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Post by leevale on Oct 24, 2017 7:39:00 GMT
Make an appointment to see a planning officer at the local council. They will be able to give advice and give an opinion about whether you are likely to get planning permission approved. There is likely to be a charge for this, but it may save you a lot of money in the long run.
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Post by Good advice on Oct 24, 2017 7:52:23 GMT
Sounds like good advice from leevale. It may depend on where in the country you are, in our area in the South it is virtually impossible to get planning permission for any type of residence temporary or other due to green belt and area of outstanding natural beauty rules. Good Luck.
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Post by flee on Oct 24, 2017 8:00:57 GMT
Not sure about the finer details of this but I recall someone local to us using the argument that not having someone on site was a welfare issue as far as stabled horses are concerned and their vet wrote them a letter supporting that view . They eventually got PP for a house with a clause that it could only be occupied in relation to the keeping of horses ( similar to an agricultural clause ) . Again it's not something I know much about but would it be worth investigating the requirements needed for creating accommodation that complied with an agricultural restriction ie. if you kept sheep/ goats / chickens ( free range egg business ? ) which are classed as agricultural and the horses were ' merely kept alongside' . Not certain but think a ' stud ' is also classed as agricultural . Could any one on HG clarify the minimum requirements need to qualify for that classification ie would just the presence of a stallion on the premises that could potentially be used for breeding be enough ( could you manage a mini shettie ?) , or if you kept one or two mares who you occasionally bred from could you call yourself a stud ? I would imagine that very few studs are the ' main or sole source of income ' in the agricultural sector these days so would be interested to know the legal defenition and how it would be policed .
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Post by CarolineNelson on Oct 24, 2017 14:31:22 GMT
Flee's advice is excellent.
Ineedhelp- - With respect I wouldn't go to the Planning dept. simply stating that your animals are of 'high value'. Not yet, until you have a real plan in place.
Some years ago, friends of mine built up an excellent establishment essentially from a large grass field - which had an Ag restriction on it. Therefore, the land had a CPH ('Holding Number') - so for them, the keeping of a small flock of sheep was vital to requirements.
The business was "Stud" orientated so, as has been mentioned, the necessity of 24/7 care and welfare, coupled with the fact that one person was an AI technician, with mares to 'serve' at 'odd' times of day - as well as the foaling and monitoring aspect, won over the local council eventually.
Be prepared for some opposition from 'neighbours' though.
Given the above criteria, in time, my friends were able to site (with proper plumbing & electrics) a decent residential caravan for (I can't remember, maybe 5? years) until full planning was granted for a simple, tasteful dwelling over the same footprint.
I also recall a situation of my own - selling a small farm in South Wales situated on the outskirts of a village. I had managed to school and show from there with great success without the need for an outdoor 'school'. I'd built internal stabling, made various structural changes, done a huge amount of fencing and erected a good sized lambing shed with no opposition from the council or indeed from locals, who were lovely.
However, some potential (townie!) purchasers desired to know if they could put in a school (outdoor, with lighting). With an address some 150 miles away, they went ahead and made their own application to the local and somewhat partisan council - and were, of course, immediately turned down.
It was stated that, had they been patient, waited as advised - and let me request the planning, it would have been granted as I was the landowner and, crucially, the trusted 'local'. . . . Think on!
And, good luck.
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Post by inh on Oct 24, 2017 18:12:26 GMT
Thank you so much guys!
So basically, what should be the next steps be? Do I email local council? Or phone up? What's the best/key points to be mentioning- we would be totally open to having a few sheep if that would help!
Ultimately, we can't move any further forward with the property if we don't know if there's chance for a static.
Do you think mentioning that as it is a business, and most if not all of my clients wouldn't keep their horses with me if no one was on site? Obviously everyone says safety / security, but I can see now that this won't be enough at all.
Thanks again everyone
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Post by Toaster on Oct 24, 2017 18:19:58 GMT
I'm another who would not go to the council just yet, the keeping of high maintenance livestock is no longer the neat little loophole it used to be and councils will know every trick in the book that people use to try and get planning - there are a great many people out there who would love a slice of the good life but equally a great number of plots of land (like the one I rent) where people have tried and failed to get planning and that therefore are appropriately cheap (ish) to buy as a result - sellers who may have plots of land that could get planning rarely sell them on without a go at obtaining the planning themselves
Do a search to see if anyone has requested planning before, this can be done on the councils website usually and within minutes, this should bring up the relevant documents
Next shell out a small amount of money for an appointment with a land expert (I forget what they are called) but they are people who specialise in putting together planning applications that will have a better chance of success, they know the system, know the area and will give you the best chance of success if you do not already have that knowledge yourself - that money will be well spent and you'll quickly get an idea of your likely success
Only then would I approach the council but have to caution that they will not be very committal to a prospective purchaser
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Post by flee on Oct 25, 2017 13:08:42 GMT
Good point from Toaster re consulting a specialist land agent , you get loads of companies if you Google something along the lines of ' how do I get PP for an agricultural dwelling '. The problem is that if you go to the council first , even for an informal consultation , and they get wind that your primary motive for wanting a dwelling is to do with keeping horses then , if turned down , they will never believe that you intend to do anything else with the land and you are , effectively , stuffed ! Our local council are an absolute pain when it comes to horses and we had the added complication that a close relative of a council members property backs onto our land , and they were very resistant to us keeping horses , seemingly convinced that we were lying about it being for private use only and were really trying to set up a business . We quickly realised that they didn't believe us when we said that the reason that we wanted pp for 6 stables was because we owned 6 horses , so instead we submitted planning for 4 stables and various ' stores ' ( which were subsequently used for storing horses ! ) and it was passed . Our local vet applied for pp to build a yard of brick built stables , examination room , operating theatre , drug store etc . You would think that the council would surely understand the need for solid , secure , horse and thief proof buildings in those circumstances wouldn't you ? But no - they would only grant permission for the buildings to be made of timber , which is classed as a 'temporary' building . So what did he do ? He put up a timber yard - and then lined it all internally with breeze block ! I know I'm digressing slightly , but I suppose my point is that you may have to be a bit clever to get what you want . If you go to the council and tell them honestly and truthfully what you want to do it tends not to get you very far , so you may have to be a little devious . Just another thought , have you looked into the possibility of buying/renting a property/ caravan plot in the neighbouring vicinity ? Be brazen and knock on doors ( we've had people come to our house and ask if we're interested in selling . It's quite flattering really !) or would someone let you site a caravan on their property for a rental fee ? You never know unless you ask !
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Post by CarolineNelson on Oct 25, 2017 16:23:02 GMT
Great advice there from both Toaster & Flee. I totally agree with them.
Another couple of comments. If you mention the words 'Business use' you will be heavily stung with 'Business Rates'. it happened to me eventually in an idyllically scenic part of East Suffolk. They had already closed down our local and brilliant Gastro Pub's venture into a huge conservatory for 'spill-over Pub meals' which could also be partitioned off for private functions. Poor people, they were not even allowed to use this space as furniture storage as the tax people considered that they could shuffle the furniture about on a weekend and earn from the space still. Talk about integrity and trust! . . . Sadly, they had no option but to move on as the rates were strangling them. (To add - the stunning 'Walnut Tree' near Abergavenny profited from their move . . . . ).
Someone must have squealed on me too, and I had a visit one January morning. Unannounced. I was lunging on lines, a particularly difficult pony. As you do in the job, not expecting a jobsworth tax officer with a clipboard to turn up!
He demanded to measure every single stable. Having put the pony away, I showed him the plans for the internal building with integral boxes, but he still had to measure them all. All were 12x12. All had animals in. He measured everything with a roof, right down to a tiny garden shed nearer the house, left from the previous owners in which we stored the hardly ever used spare tools, lawnmower etc.
Sheep (my precious mummy ewes, with lambs) were in a few boxes, as well as horses/ponies in the majority; this was lambing time as well as approaching show season time. Were they 'client's sheep? By then I'd about lost the will to live, never mind the plot.
To advise you further - when I got planning for this internal 'American Barn' in the first place, I showed the planners where I'd like it to be sited. Planning was refused as it was considered 'too close to the public right of way' (a quiet, extremely narrow country lane).
So I tried again ( on purpose, given the advice by someone in the 'know') to site the barn on a plot where I didn't want to site it - which was nearer to a couple of local cottages which belonged to holiday home owners who came up from London maybe twice a year.
Absolutely couldn't put it there. Far too close to the dwellings. . . . . . . . BUT, you could site it over there in that corner by the hedge . . . . Yes- the original plot, my preferred siting, nearer the lane. So that's where it went and where it still is to this day!
I do wish you the very best of luck in your venture and hope that it all works out for you.
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Post by Look further on Oct 25, 2017 17:54:59 GMT
I would really suggest you look for something else to save you a lot of time and anguish. Pretty much all of the loopholes are closed now and horses in the UK are not agricultural. To get an agricultural dwelling even a static you have to prove that the land can support a family without further income being needed and the acerage is something like 50 acres minimum it did use to be 5 acres. Poultry is about the only thing that might work as you can get contracts for ducks, eggs etc but you would have to do it !
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Post by poop on Oct 27, 2017 23:03:34 GMT
I have done this - successfully, but it did take 7 years to get final permanent permission for a house. The rules have slightly relaxed when new planning policies were introduced a couple of years ago but you need to be able to evidence that you are a business. The old functional & financial tests are the benchmarks that alot of local authorities still go by. You really need to contact a specialist rural planning consultant, they will come out & have an initial feasibility meeting with you. I highly recommend Acorus, very knowledgeable in this area!
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Post by gillwales on Oct 28, 2017 4:42:30 GMT
I have done this - successfully, but it did take 7 years to get final permanent permission for a house. The rules have slightly relaxed when new planning policies were introduced a couple of years ago but you need to be able to evidence that you are a business. The old functional & financial tests are the benchmarks that alot of local authorities still go by. You really need to contact a specialist rural planning consultant, they will come out & have an initial feasibility meeting with you. I highly recommend Acorus, very knowledgeable in this area! Don't forget if you do get restricted planning you will only be able to sell it onto someone in the same position and it will not be at the market value as a home without it, so that will make it difficult to sell as there will not be many people who can show they are running a business, also if you do get planning on a business loop hole you will have to pay business rates on all of the outbuildings down to a garden shed; this can seriously add up! Horses are not considered agricultural even if you are breeding.
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Post by Philippa on Oct 28, 2017 7:20:17 GMT
I would really suggest you look for something else to save you a lot of time and anguish. Pretty much all of the loopholes are closed now and horses in the UK are not agricultural. To get an agricultural dwelling even a static you have to prove that the land can support a family without further income being needed and the acerage is something like 50 acres minimum it did use to be 5 acres. Poultry is about the only thing that might work as you can get contracts for ducks, eggs etc but you would have to do it ! You are quite correct other than the acreage which is 12. Unless you are prepared for a lot of time, effort, headache, heartache and financial outlay for what may in turn be just a pipe dream then look & think extremely hard. Horses are NOT a reason to get planning permission regardless of their worth and genuinely it's not just a case of getting a few sheep or hens. It is very dependent on the area too. I wish you every success in your venture an will you to get planning permission for equestrian rights as it will open the floodgates for a lot of people in the same boat.
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Post by poop on Oct 28, 2017 18:34:34 GMT
There is no hard & fast rule re: acreage - i only had 8. It is a fallacy that only agricultural schemes can get pp, equestrian schemes have been included since PPS7 which has now been superseded by the updated planning policies that came out 2-3 yrs ago & texhnically makes planning easier to apply for. But you have to be prepared to be in it for the long haul, and run as a business and be prepared to pay out for expert advice and reports as they are a neccesary part of any planning application.
But yes gill wales as soon as you are granted business permission the valuation office are round to assess for business rates however dont forget most modest schemes still benefit from small business rate relief - and providing you meet the qualifying conditions there is also stud farm rate relief if you are over the small business relief threshold. Yes other thing is that permanent pp is granted with an equestrian tie - various LA's word this differently, I was lucky, my pp was granted with a very general equestrian tie so selling wasnt at a big disadvantage
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Oct 29, 2017 8:39:25 GMT
Just a thought and a genuine query as I've no idea one way or the other, but do different planning bodies vary in interpretation of the basic rules perhaps? I'd second consulting a specialist rural planning consultant, but make sure they're up to speed with your particular planning area - they will know all the idiosyncracies (sp) of your particular council members. Planning does seem a very inexact science!
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Post by gillwales on Oct 29, 2017 10:02:58 GMT
It does vary from Council to Council. One thing I would advise is not to try to "trick" the council into giving you permission. The people I purchased my current home did and it really back fired on them, when it came to putting a council tax band on it they really went to town and although it is the smallest and cheapest house I looked at it is by far the highest council tax band. There was also a piece of land they wanted to purchase from the council adjoining the property and the Council practically gave it to the neighbour. At the end of the day we would all love to purchase land at agricultural prices and be able to put a house on it, but it does not work that way and the country would be in a sorry mess if it did.
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Post by inh on Oct 29, 2017 16:37:26 GMT
So very grateful for all he advice.
The council where the property is charges for any planning advice! I am definitely going to contact the recommended planning consult as quoted above.
As I was driving home today, a rather random idea occurred, and I would just like to know if anyone has done this.
Say for instance we purchased this property, there is a barn which could be converted into living accommodation, so therefore would be change of use- how easy/hard is this.
And then another random idea I also had, what/if any planning do you need to live in a lorry? Obviously we would have a decent one with adequate living.
Again, sorry for bombarding you all with very strange questions, trying to gather as much information as I can really!
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Post by poop on Oct 30, 2017 10:09:29 GMT
I guess living in a lorry would still be classes as a temporary dwelling if you wished to occupy the site 12 months of the year so you would need residential pp. Different to sleeping in the lorry the night before a show or for a few night whilst you had a mare foaling etc. I wouldnt try and do anything underhand or to try & get round planning legislation. If you are upfront and straight with the council and follow the planning policies that are there to guide them - and us then it will be much better. Also bear in mind things like if the land is in a conservation area, is an sssi site etc, that is more difficult. Re converting a barn - when the new policies came in 3 yrs ago there was one that made converting existing agricultural buildings into houses much easier. But i think there are alot of constraints attached. Talk to Acorus, they will know much better than anyone on here!
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Post by honeypot on Nov 3, 2017 19:43:33 GMT
Planning is a complete and utter farce. Someone I know had a small stud and bred sheep. She had enough acreage for a huge metal agricultural barn, which she didn't need permission for, its part of permitted development. She wanted a static caravan, went through months of aggravation, they wouldn't give permission. She had a small tourer that she used for tea and the loo. When the planning officer came and she explained her frustration, he told her to put the tourer in the barn and live in that. Its storage! Someone near me has bought 30acres, put up he huge metal agricultural shed, permitted development, and inside, is a park home.
Under permitted development we want to convert some out buildings into a home, the planning officer decided at the start that it was not going to be allowed and at every turn has been obstructive. Every objection we have complied with, so we are going to appeal. If we lose I have enough land for the huge green metal shed and then I will divide the land and sell it to the travellers that are always wanting me to sell. That will make them work.
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Post by flee on Nov 4, 2017 12:52:22 GMT
If we lose I have enough land for the huge green metal shed and then I will divide the land and sell it to the travellers that are always wanting me to sell. That will make them work. Or just go ahead with it anyway and tell the council that , actually , you're travellers too . Completely different set of rules then isn't it ?
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