kareen
Junior Member
Posts: 90
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Post by kareen on Oct 25, 2017 6:37:07 GMT
I can't help but wonder how often do you think is normal for a pony to change owners? In the past I've come across some wonderful ponies and was quite surprised to see their passport holds 6, 7 or sometimes up to 9 different recorded owners and sometimes there are only a few months between buying and selling the animal. Leaving the obvious reasons aside I believe horses should ideally change hands only one or two times in life. Why do you think so many ponies seem to get sold on and on? I have no comparable information from my home country because as paper-crazy as we are in all other regards the rule that ownership of a horse has to be recorded gets gloriously ignored here in Germany. I believe it's because we have the certificate of ownership and people assume whoever holds said document owns the horse. I would hope the ones I breed don't end up having to adjust to so many changes in circumstances. What does everybody think how often is normal?
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Oct 25, 2017 7:08:03 GMT
I have no measure of what might be normal, but one factor for small ponies here in the UK is that children do grow out of them, so they may be sold on in order to buy a bigger pony. I think in Germany there is more of a culture of children riding big horses than we have here, so the horse would be more likely to stay in its original family?
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Post by Philippa on Oct 25, 2017 7:13:50 GMT
I agree with sarahp with regards ponies. We have bought ponies with only one or 2 owners but then bought them with several owners. I haven’t seen any particular pattern with good ponies or not so good ponies.
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Post by Toaster on Oct 25, 2017 7:14:15 GMT
My thoughts in no particular order:
Decent livery is expensive and once outgrown its not an option for an outgrown pony to be kept as well as the replacement pony
More ponies now are 'one discipline' ponies, these tend to have the more ambitious owners with higher expectations of the animal and if they don't get the results quickly then the pony is sold on
Following on from the above - so many ponies are expected to be perfect, nothing less than HOYS quality is wanted and even then woe betide the pony if it takes a while to settle in or behaves any way other than a rocking horse - the number of 'mis sold' pony complaints we see now on Facebook and forums is worrying - some people going through several ponies a year but of course its never their fault..
Kids grow so quick now, we have ten year olds on 14.2 ponies and often missing out sizes entirely (eg going from 12.2 to 14.2) back 'in the day' it was more clear cut that kids would go up through the sizes of ponies more slowly with ponies averaging at least a couple of years in one home
I believe personally that there are less cases of ponies being passed down through families due to wider age gaps and possibly the cost of livery, its common to see ponies now sold because child 1 has outgrown the pony but child 2 is too young to go straight on to the pony
There are more people setting themselves up as producers now but in fact are simply dealers who are simply buying projects, tarting them up, giving them a bit of schooling and selling them on, some are doing a fab job and others are masters of marketing - but then that's another thread!
People are less likely to keep and loan out an outgrown pony as there are less keen kids about and those that are keen enough usually have their own pony. There are so many distractions for 'slightly horsey' kids today - I found it incredibly hard to find someone to ride my two ponies and that's with me paying the bills and doing the day to day care and even then I don't fully understand how the child can be attending six birthday parties in a month leaving no time to ride!
Ponies are living longer now so can be more useful for more years, its common to see 20 year old ponies being sold on to teach a new kiddy the ropes and JA jumping ponies in their late teens where 30 years ago that would have been far less common
It would seem that with the costs of keeping a horse the larger natives in particular are becoming more attractive to an adult rider but I think small childrens ponies will always be on the move
I for one though would rather see a pony out and about doing something and having a varied life than sat in the field because the owner feels an obligation to keep them forever after they have been outgrown
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Post by janetbushell on Oct 25, 2017 7:24:07 GMT
Agree with sarahp, particularly if there are no younger family members to "take the reins". I was fortunate to be able to keep virtually all my children's ponies after they were outgrown by the youngest child & either had riders or sometimes found loan homes for the older ones if they were suitable & the animals were too young to retire. This way I still retained control of the future of the animals, who we very much considered members of our family. I would no longer be in a position to do this for my grandchildren however if they rode, so if we had small ponies they would have to be sold to buy the next size.
Plus some people enjoy bringing out youngsters under saddle & then selling them on to do the ridden job & starting the process again.
Of the few I bred (which were too small for my then teenage children) I kept 2 & found excellent riders to bring them out under saddle. Sadly we lost one young & the other pony was such an ideal child's pony that we did sell him (age 7) to continue to show his talents. However he went to a wonderful family with 3 young children & when all grew out of him he had a couple of very successful loan homes to small children & would have come back for my grandchildren although sadly he died unexpectedly just before he could do so.
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Post by comanchediva on Oct 25, 2017 7:25:11 GMT
Looking at this from a different point of view, ie adults owning/riding ponies, I have been lucky to have sold a couple in the last few years who I know will have homes for life. More recently we sold a pony last year who has had I think 3 homes since he left us and I believe may be for sale again.
On the occasions that we think we might sell one of our other boys we soon get bored of the timewasters and end up keeping them and therefore have a collection of ponies from yearlings to a 7 year old and I know that some of them will be with us forever; the thought of them ending up in the wrong home and being passed from one owner to the next upsets me too much.
We are very lucky that 2 of our ponies are in the same excellent loan home and that arrangement is working very well. I do think that at some point I need to man up and actually try and make some money though!
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Post by Toaster on Oct 25, 2017 7:36:25 GMT
I'm going to add another...
Some people are incredibly fickle these days and have attention spans that are practically zero which combined with parents with deep pockets and a desire to afford their child the very best can result in quick turnover of ponies.
So many times I see a pony bought and heralded as the next big thing and a forever pony only to see it up for sale not long after as a 'heart-breaking' sale to make way for the next big thing - the most recent success usually dictates the type of pony that is in vogue. A family local to me have been through five ponies in a year and as many tweeds and blue coats!
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Post by Philippa on Oct 25, 2017 7:48:59 GMT
My thoughts in no particular order: Decent livery is expensive and once outgrown its not an option for an outgrown pony to be kept as well as the replacement pony More ponies now are 'one discipline' ponies, these tend to have the more ambitious owners with higher expectations of the animal and if they don't get the results quickly then the pony is sold on Following on from the above - so many ponies are expected to be perfect, nothing less than HOYS quality is wanted and even then woe betide the pony if it takes a while to settle in or behaves any way other than a rocking horse - the number of 'mis sold' pony complaints we see now on Facebook and forums is worrying - some people going through several ponies a year but of course its never their fault.. Kids grow so quick now, we have ten year olds on 14.2 ponies and often missing out sizes entirely (eg going from 12.2 to 14.2) back 'in the day' it was more clear cut that kids would go up through the sizes of ponies more slowly with ponies averaging at least a couple of years in one home I believe personally that there are less cases of ponies being passed down through families due to wider age gaps and possibly the cost of livery, its common to see ponies now sold because child 1 has outgrown the pony but child 2 is too young to go straight on to the pony There are more people setting themselves up as producers now but in fact are simply dealers who are simply buying projects, tarting them up, giving them a bit of schooling and selling them on, some are doing a fab job and others are masters of marketing - but then that's another thread! People are less likely to keep and loan out an outgrown pony as there are less keen kids about and those that are keen enough usually have their own pony. There are so many distractions for 'slightly horsey' kids today - I found it incredibly hard to find someone to ride my two ponies and that's with me paying the bills and doing the day to day care and even then I don't fully understand how the child can be attending six birthday parties in a month leaving no time to ride! Ponies are living longer now so can be more useful for more years, its common to see 20 year old ponies being sold on to teach a new kiddy the ropes and JA jumping ponies in their late teens where 30 years ago that would have been far less common It would seem that with the costs of keeping a horse the larger natives in particular are becoming more attractive to an adult rider but I think small childrens ponies will always be on the move I for one though would rather see a pony out and about doing something and having a varied life than sat in the field because the owner feels an obligation to keep them forever after they have been outgrown This is an excellent post toaster and you are so right on pretty much all counts. My old 12.2hh jumping pony went on to teach David Broomes, Graham Fletchers & Andrew Saywells children the jumping ropes and my 13.2hh who we bought with just £9 on her card went on to be an international jumping pony who I remember seeing advertised in H&H 20 years ago well into her teens for £22 thousand. We this weekend put a new hat on our SP LR and turned her into a SHP and did the workers at Countryside Live. Both pony & child enjoyed themselves immensely and it was a nice change from the norm and completely different faces from the showing classes.
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Post by Carrots&Mints on Oct 25, 2017 8:04:10 GMT
I was the 3rd owner of my Section D - I bought him as a yearling Here for life now though!
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Oct 25, 2017 8:34:27 GMT
Great posts Toaster, I've seen all of those! I lot of stuff consequent to how our hose world, particularly the showing part of it, tends to work these days. There will of course always be some constantly sold on because they have a problem, most likely undeclared on sale(s).
I'm really bad at selling ponies. Just been thinking through my daughter's outgrowns - FR Dartmoor was sold to a lovely family in out PC, went through their three children and then was lent our for the rest of her life. Wonderful Welsh B stayed in our ownership for the rest of his life and was lent out. The Welsh C, which I'd bred and sold to a friend and bought back for daughter, was sold to a wonderful home and on from them to another, where he stayed for the rest of his life. Unsuitable TBxD was sold to a pro SJer for a jumping career. WB allrounder was here for life although lent out latterly. After that she was grown up and they were hers! I breed, although not that many, so see another side of it in that some youngsters are in the nature of things sold, and on the whole have found good homes, I do try my best to ensure they do, but I have three favourite Ds and an A out on long term loan who will never be sold as I want to be in charge of their future and not risk them ending up in the wrong place, which is all too easy.
Another reason for them changing owners is when looking at youngsters - they all have to be broken and brought on, and not everyone wants or is capable of doing their own from scratch. So going from breeder to someone who breaks and schools, maybe shows them a bit and then sells them on as made ponies may well be the first two entries as owners in a passport anyway, before the animal gets to what might be a more permanent owner. I have no small riders and am too crocked to start breaking anything now, and I've tried having As broken to sell but it's not financially viable for one thing, and potential buyers, as in parents, have turned out to be a nightmare. Twice now I have had a "sale" where I've agreed that they could borrow the pony for a spell to make sure things are right, and in both cases they have kept it for the summer holidays only for it to come back to me when the schools go back. Never again! They can try it as much as they want, bring anyone to see it but it doesn't leave its yard without me having been paid. I am now VERY picky over potential buyers. Having said that, some really lovely people have been here and left with one.
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Post by maxandpaddy on Oct 25, 2017 11:15:49 GMT
I'm going to add another... Some people are incredibly fickle these days and have attention spans that are practically zero which combined with parents with deep pockets and a desire to afford their child the very best can result in quick turnover of ponies. So many times I see a pony bought and heralded as the next big thing and a forever pony only to see it up for sale not long after as a 'heart-breaking' sale to make way for the next big thing - the most recent success usually dictates the type of pony that is in vogue. A family local to me have been through five ponies in a year and as many tweeds and blue coats! Ive known of this too, in particular a family we know that paid an arm and a leg for the new bright star that had won at a prestigious show. It didnt go as well for them - it was lower down the line up than they were happy with at a couple of shows so they sold it within months of buying it for a fraction of what they paid. But they didnt care ! On to the next one ! My daughter also witnessed a parent at one show not being happy with how their 12.2 stood in the line up (it fidgeted) and was moved down a couple of places - not sure if because of the fidgeting or not...but anyway, her comment to the producer at the side of the ring was "drop it off on the A1, i dont care what you do with it buy me one that stands still!" OMG! a gorgeous young pony but not "perfect" enough for them.....crazy!
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Oct 25, 2017 11:24:09 GMT
Stuff like this makes me so sad. What happened to working with what you already have?
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Post by Philippa on Oct 25, 2017 11:27:44 GMT
I have to admit to the odd remark about my own ponies when they haven’t gone well or been out & out naughty but we still take them home and feed, groom, clean them out, bath them and bring them out another day. They aren’t machines and like us have to have a bad day sometimes.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Oct 25, 2017 11:35:42 GMT
Many of us do that on a bad day, but don't mean it! Unfortunately some parents, often non-horsey ones do mean it - if the pony doesn't work for their child, change it. It's really more the attitudes to bringing up children these days that I don't have sympathy with. I'm being a grumpy old woman again.
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Post by ponymum on Oct 26, 2017 10:00:18 GMT
I think there are 2 reasons, one , the pony is a super reliable type and teaches their jockeys well and they outgrow so the pony goes onto another lucky child , two, The pony is tricky and falls into the ownership of someone not willing to school and educate the pony so it is up for sale again and again - Sadly. I have bought a prolific winning pony in the past that had a bad reputation and certainly wasnt a first ridden pony. That said he was an exceptional worker/jumping pony and my daughter thoroughly enjoyed him until becoming a little too heavy for him. We advertised him for sale as a LR (stating he will never be a safe fr)after 3 yrs and the lady who owns him now has 4 children! I think he is now in his last home
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Post by gillwales on Oct 26, 2017 16:52:37 GMT
There is another reason, the one that I hope is more the reason why ponies tend to be moved on, it is so expensive to keep a pony these days and with potentially a lot of money tied up in one, once a child is out of class how many parents can afford to keep it on and replace with a bigger pony? Not all parents are bad nor all are made of money; the vast majority have to live within a budget.
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Post by honeypot on Nov 4, 2017 20:18:34 GMT
I'm going to add another... Some people are incredibly fickle these days and have attention spans that are practically zero which combined with parents with deep pockets and a desire to afford their child the very best can result in quick turnover of ponies. So many times I see a pony bought and heralded as the next big thing and a forever pony only to see it up for sale not long after as a 'heart-breaking' sale to make way for the next big thing - the most recent success usually dictates the type of pony that is in vogue. A family local to me have been through five ponies in a year and as many tweeds and blue coats! Ive known of this too, in particular a family we know that paid an arm and a leg for the new bright star that had won at a prestigious show. It didnt go as well for them - it was lower down the line up than they were happy with at a couple of shows so they sold it within months of buying it for a fraction of what they paid. But they didnt care ! On to the next one ! My daughter also witnessed a parent at one show not being happy with how their 12.2 stood in the line up (it fidgeted) and was moved down a couple of places - not sure if because of the fidgeting or not...but anyway, her comment to the producer at the side of the ring was "drop it off on the A1, i dont care what you do with it buy me one that stands still!" OMG! a gorgeous young pony but not "perfect" enough for them.....crazy! A friends husband was learning to ride on someone elses horse. The owner obviously had a lot of money, if they didn't do well in the ring he had them shot rather than sell and run the risk of them doing well for someone else. Mad and sad.
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Post by catkin on Nov 6, 2017 16:03:05 GMT
I am not sure there is much logic behind those that have many and those that have few homes in terms of quality, suitability etc. There other factors to consider nowadays though: * more working parents and more school commitments mean less time to spend riding and in particular educating young ponies * land (certainly near London) is expensive and hard to come by. So, grazing is at a premium. 'spare' ponies are hard to justify * children are bigger, so they grow out of ponies more quickly I am the first of nine siblings, so we had a good ability to hand ponies on. And, my mother hated parting with them and had land enough to retire or tick some 'extras' along. However, some went on to fund new animals, some were bought as projects and some didn't work out. Although there are many of us, our equine requirements did differ sometimes too!!
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kareen
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Post by kareen on Nov 9, 2017 7:18:17 GMT
Well I understand about economic necessities but if a pony gets moved after a mere three or four months you can't help but wonder... The one we have here now with the many pre-owners turns out absolutely sweet. Still trying to find out what her quirk is. She was a little jumpy to pick up her hindfeet at first but has improved massively over just two sessions of practise and the only thing I found 'wrong' with her was that she is not confident to jump higher than 50cm (which I think is perfectly acceptable for a 12.2h pony) and had difficulties to maintain her lead on the left in the canter which was fixed with two sessions with our Rehatron unit. Nothing else seems 'wrong' with her so I don't think she deserved going through 9 different hands in her 13 years of life. Hope this upcoming change will be her last. These ponies are worth their weight in gold and shouldn't be passed on so frequently. I mean how much does it cost to entertain a sound 12.2h pony? Really all they need is some gras/hay and a clean place to live in, maybe add 100 per year for the odd trim and deworming... Livery if you can't have it at home yes that would be a factor I can accept but I also know where's a will there's a way.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Nov 9, 2017 8:14:51 GMT
So many people now won't bother to try to sort out little niggles like this as you have but just pass the poor pony on elsewhere. They may not of course have had the knowledge to do so anyway, the standard of horsemanship over here isn't always that great.
Very few now have facilities to keep them at home so livery charges are more influential than you may think, and we wouldn't get away with £100 pa for feet and worming without neglecting something - my farrier charges £22 for trimming all four feet, and if you want it shod it's a lot more of course. Transport as there is less and less ability to hack our safely as our density of traffic is so high. I do agree though, where there's a will there's a way, those who really want to will do so but it seems those who had your pony didn't have the will!. I do so agree though, a really sweet natured and trustworthy pony should always be able to find a great home.
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