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Post by honeypot on Nov 27, 2017 15:10:06 GMT
I do not know if the concern is valid or not, but in showing people seem to very wary about contacting the showing authorities and any supposed repercussions. I have been through a whistle blowing process, for substantiated reasons, followed the correct process etc. I got things changed because of it, so in the long run it was worth while, but you are seen as a trouble maker and have your card marked. Each society should have their own Safe Guarding policy and should be following it, so pelh, ask to see it, if its not on there web site. Then if you think the person concerned has convictions that should be taken into account, I would contact the Safeguarding Board, the details should be on the local council website, in the area where the society head office is, give them the details and ask them to follow it up and investigate. That way personalities are not involved and action if needed will be requested by an official body. It may be that the society has already completed a risk assessment, and put risk management in place, but if they do not know they can not asses the risk. Safe guarding is about putting steps in place to prevent any sort of abuse, and does not only apply to children. www.safecic.co.uk/freebies
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Post by Philippa on Nov 27, 2017 19:15:51 GMT
Just to point out that as a volunteer the DBS only costs about £10.
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Post by Pleh on Nov 28, 2017 10:00:48 GMT
Honeypot my question was, as previously stated, purely administrative.As I have previously said disclosure forms usually request information regarding both abuse and substance misuse. If others here are suggesting it is related to an individual then this is their words and thoughts but certainly not the intention of my question.
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Post by honeypot on Nov 28, 2017 19:40:55 GMT
That's great, you just have to ask them then for a copy of their Safe Guarding policy then, and find out what level they need a DBS. Just a general question about criteria for become a judge/official should cover anything else.
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Post by Uncomfortable on Dec 1, 2017 9:22:04 GMT
Most societies send out a self disclosure form to judges. It asks if you have any criminal convictions and also any convictions involving children. With self disclosure it relies on a degree of honesty, however the form once signed could be forwarded to the respective authorities for a formal check. Any criminal conviction would include offences relating to drug taking etc. In any job or voluntary position the recommendation is that one is if possible always accompanied by another adult when dealing with young people to avoid any false accusations being made. Judges and stewards are in contact with young people but in a public place and in view of everyone. What is very strange that anyone can make a complaint about a judge, does anyone check out that the complainer does not have a criminal record? If every judge and steward were required to have a full police check then the costs would be prohibitive...... and who would pay? Those who moan and complain should probably give up showing and take up a sport/hobby that they can undertake on their own!
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Post by CarolineNelson on Dec 1, 2017 13:58:12 GMT
Most societies send out a self disclosure form to judges. It asks if you have any criminal convictions and also any convictions involving children. With self disclosure it relies on a degree of honesty, however the form once signed could be forwarded to the respective authorities for a formal check. Any criminal conviction would include offences relating to drug taking etc. In any job or voluntary position the recommendation is that one is if possible always accompanied by another adult when dealing with young people to avoid any false accusations being made. Judges and stewards are in contact with young people but in a public place and in view of everyone. What is very strange that anyone can make a complaint about a judge, does anyone check out that the complainer does not have a criminal record? If every judge and steward were required to have a full police check then the costs would be prohibitive...... and who would pay? Those who moan and complain should probably give up showing and take up a sport/hobby that they can undertake on their own! Well said. The NPS's Self-declaration form also requires self-disclosure regarding previous Animal Welfare offences. When the NPS Council (in 2003/4) brought in Judges' self-disclosure forms, we were the first Society in this field to do so - other than of course the BHS (for Trainers/Coaches) and, interestingly, the British Driving Society, both of whom we approached for advice. Other Societies and Associations have followed on since then. At that time this move was initially viewed with a degree of distrust (mostly due the requirement to supply one's Nat. Ins. no. As all documentation is stored utterly securely there was no need for concern - and now this form is commonplace for Judges on re-application every autumn. For Voluntary duties and a part-time post with the local Council, like very many others I possess a PVG Scheme disclosure certificate - and Child Protection/Safe Practice certification. As has sensibly been said, in our 'sport' the risk of a Steward or Judge being in a 'one-to-one- situation is highly unlikely as the whole essence of "Showing" is for the Public to view the animals on 'show'. Plus, there has been much bad publicity recently in the media regarding 'old-style' (shall we say?) coaches having apparently acted with over familiarity (and therefore inappropriately) in changing rooms etc. that anyone with a brain would not allow themselves to be placed in such a situation these days. But that 'opportunity' for transgression with minors is simply not going to happen in our sport. Frankly, handling of the whole topic is down to common sense. If a child falls off a pony in a ring and a Steward or Judge goes to their aid, is that a crime? Absolutely of course not. Or a little child is found in floods of tears, lost on a showground?? Common sense, common sense and common sense. I appreciate that this post is a slight deviation from the OP who spoke solely of 'drug use'. Presumably, referring to the recreational variety.
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Post by Philippa on Dec 1, 2017 14:45:09 GMT
Common sense, common sense and common sense. And unfortunately this is where the problem is in society in general. Common sense has gone out of the window
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Post by maxandpaddy on Dec 1, 2017 19:48:37 GMT
Totally agree with Philippa and have to say it’s all about risk assessing, for example COULD a judge potentially say or do something inappropriate ... answer = highly unlikely while judging but not impossible. Then you add in the fact a lot of judges teach as well judge = access to children, is judging a position that could be used in some form to gain access/trust in children = possibly I work with young children and the hoops, paperwork, risk assessing and safeguarding we now have to do is pretty re’willy’ulous because all those ‘ highly unlikely’s’ and ‘possibly’s’ no matter how remote have to accounted for. I understand why but it’s getting to the point where more time is spent on paperwork than with the children!!! We cant even have volunteers in now (who are NEVER left alone with a child) unless they have a DBS in place, we have people out of a job because someone they live with has a criminal record ( a minor nothing major) I also know of people who have given in and changed career because they feel scrutinised to the point where they can’t cope with the pressure now So again if I was involved in the running of a Society’ All judges and possibly stewards would be DBS checked... it’s just not worth not doing it in this day and age
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Post by Uncomfortable on Dec 1, 2017 22:46:31 GMT
Sorry but I can't agree. Innocent until proven guilty should be the adage not guilty until proven innocent! Risk assessment is a farce, you wouldn't get out of bed in the morning or allow anyone else to if you assessed every possible risk!
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Post by mcnaughty on Dec 15, 2017 11:43:07 GMT
So, just for clarification, do judges HAVE to be DBS checked or not? We cannot keep using the 'but they do it for the love of the sport and for free' card. There are a whole list of sports and activities that involve volunteers that have extremely strict checks carried out on them and not just sports that we would deem to have hands on contact with children. My son's golf club has a very strict child safety and welfare policy for one and I am sure most of us have or are involved in cubs, scouts, brownies, dance, judo, football, rugby etc etc. Some of you may feel that the judge is in the centre of a ring with a steward what could go wrong? Well what about when that judge comes out of the ring and meets a child in the toilets at a show?
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Post by gillwales on Dec 15, 2017 12:26:40 GMT
McNaughty, write to the shows you intend to go to with your child, other than that don't show anymore. Personally I fail to see why anyone would ever want to judge if they read the posts on HG.
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Post by AT WORK NLI on Dec 15, 2017 13:27:34 GMT
Mcnaughty if you feel like that, supervise your child in the toilets at shows. You could use this scenario about anyone you meet at shows, other competitors, their grooms, their parents, goodness at this rate no one will ever leave the house!
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Post by gillwales on Dec 15, 2017 16:20:32 GMT
This is not the place to ask these sorts of questions, you should ask official questions to the Societies you show under
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Post by Shocking on Dec 15, 2017 18:52:05 GMT
OMG! Gillwales and at work NLI - wake up and smell the coffee you two. Seriously, so you think that McNaughty was only referring to toilets at shows? I doubt that very much. When a person is in a position of authority in any sport and they have access to children (in the ring) then that position of authority can be transferred to anywhere ... in the world! How on earth do you think child abuse or for that matter the recent adult abuse all over the news at the moment happens? Do you think the abusers carry it out in full view of everyone. FFS you two are something else! Go and get an EDUCATION!
This is a serious issue that you two are dismissing out of hand in a very disgraceful way and you should be ashamed of yourselves! Can I assume you are hiding something or are you just stupid?
I'm not even talking about drug abuse - that is a whole different subject. We are not accusing judges we are protecting children and there is a whole world of difference between the two. You have the gall to say basically put up or shut up, god forbid a child does get hurt eh - what would it be, down to the parents for not raising the issue beforehand - perhaps it was the child's fault for going to the show in the first place eh.
Oh and I have gone down the pathway of guest as you were so vile to McNaughty who was brave enough to post openly and you rip into them!
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Post by Uncomfortable on Dec 15, 2017 22:13:05 GMT
Why not everyone get a police check and wear a big sign around the neck saying passed or failed! Then you know it's safe to talk to people, go to the toilet or show horses and ponies! Get a reality check you lot! I am astounded and disgusted at the attitude displayed here!
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Post by mcnaughty on Dec 18, 2017 8:44:46 GMT
McNaughty, write to the shows you intend to go to with your child, other than that don't show anymore. Personally I fail to see why anyone would ever want to judge if they read the posts on HG. WOW! only just seen this. I also fail to see why anyone would want to show or even post on here if they read your post! I do believe this is a discussion forum is it not? Instead it sounds like if you don't like it don't comment! Well I will actually be raising the issue with both NPS and BSPS for all our safety. I fail to understand what you are trying to hide by being so aggressive Gillwales? Perhaps you would like to explain why this cannot be discussed on a public forum? I for one would be only too pleased to have a full check carried out on myself if that is what was required to protect everyone concerned as it would only be the guilty who would block such an action.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Dec 18, 2017 11:52:54 GMT
So, just for clarification, do judges HAVE to be DBS checked or not? We cannot keep using the 'but they do it for the love of the sport and for free' card. There are a whole list of sports and activities that involve volunteers that have extremely strict checks carried out on them and not just sports that we would deem to have hands on contact with children. My son's golf club has a very strict child safety and welfare policy for one and I am sure most of us have or are involved in cubs, scouts, brownies, dance, judo, football, rugby etc etc. Some of you may feel that the judge is in the centre of a ring with a steward what could go wrong? Well what about when that judge comes out of the ring and meets a child in the toilets at a show? For clarification - most Societies which go down the very sensible route of running DBS checks (which, within the showing community, my then Chairman & I, as 'Vice'-Chair at that time) introduced for the NPS back in the early-mid 2000's, as has been explained above. Taking very helpful advice from the BHS for their qualified Teachers/Trainers/Coaches (of which I remain one) and from the British Driving Society (who had for some reason felt it necessary to introduce such a policy at that time) the NPS was pretty much the leader in the insistence of CAB (now DBS) checks. As I'd previously explained above, initially, there was a slight resistance from some to the personal release of the Nat. Ins. no. - purely on the grounds of retaining personal anonymity. But, when it was explained that the reason was simply to allow the CAB (DBS) checks to be completed, there was no further resistance. So effectively, the NPS took the lead in the quest to keep both our young and vulnerable people safe at Society events. Now, as Judges, we do this annually as a matter of course and indeed I've just completed yet another one this autumn, the latest one being for the WPCS. Why please, is there such a perceived grievance here, between what "McNaughty" has stated and what she didn't like about what "Gill Wales" stated?
GW is correct in suggesting that (my interpretation) - if every judge/steward/volunteer/assistant helper at any show is considered a potential liability then there will be no showing - and McNaughty is correct in suggesting the consideration that every child or vulnerable adult is at risk at a public event. Here I side with GW in that if, for arguments sake, a parent is so concerned to allow a child to visit - say - a public toilet unattended, then - accompany them. But hey - give the child some slack, too - as, intimidation, peer pressure and worse can, ever so simply, happen at school (even at home, with sibling rivalry) - so not only on a showground. To see a bunch of kids happily playing of an evening on a showground and being able to pop to the public loo if they need, is surely all part of the furniture, the ethos of the showing community. Please can we be realistic here. if they are totally wrapped in cotton wool they will never survive in the real world. For goodness' sake, who's to say that all the "Santas" operating throughout the entire world at the moment are not potential dangers to children. We have to be realistic. McNaughty, don't be too hard on GW as she too has a point - as do you. 1) no volunteers at shows = NO Shows to attend. 2) potential abusers at shows - very possible. BUT - they may very well be 'incomers' those who broke through the show's security from the locality of the show - such as happened at Peterborough on occasion. What must be realised is that EVERY SHOW has to safeguard the potentials. So, if the class entry fees etc. rise in order to accommodate 'security staff', the costs must be accepted by exhibitors.
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Post by honeypot on Dec 21, 2017 20:03:05 GMT
To me there seems to be a misunderstanding of what Safeguarding is about, the DBS is just part of how an organisation shows how they implement the screening of employees or volunteers. The rest of it involves all of us all the time, but most organisations who may come into contact with vulnerable people should give some guidance to their representatives of what to do to hopefully prevent abuse of any sort. Caroline is right it may happen in the toilets at a show, it could be a child bullying another child, it doesn't have to be an adult. It about us all being aware of what is going on around us and have the knowledge and the confidence to do something about it. Being nosey has become unfashionable, but being aware of what is going around you not only could prevent abuse but other more likely to be life threatening situations. In my job I have to have 'professional curiosity', I think we should all be curios about what is going on around us, that how we all keep safe.
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Post by Pleh on Dec 29, 2017 12:42:24 GMT
If according to the statement above which suggests the NPS undertakes DBS checks on all of their judges then the costs entailed for this will be visible to all members on the annual accounts? Or do judges simply supply information in case the organisation deems a DBS check to be required?
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Post by gillwales on Jan 24, 2018 9:41:19 GMT
If according to the statement above which suggests the NPS undertakes DBS checks on all of their judges then the costs entailed for this will be visible to all members on the annual accounts? Or do judges simply supply information in case the organisation deems a DBS check to be required? I was SO RIGHT!!! You are out to cause trouble!! Don't stir on here, write to the NPS and ask IF you are a member. Go to the AGM and raise the matter there.
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Post by Pleh on Jan 27, 2018 21:56:10 GMT
A simple question was asked Gill Wales. There has been reasonable discussion here and we thank you for contributing. What is of concern is the acceptance of drug use by a few contributors including yourself. Shame on those who feel this way when it concerns a sport in which children compete with and against adults.
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Post by Safegaurding on Feb 16, 2018 11:59:15 GMT
As someone who shows and also works in child protection I am astonished at the naivety of some people on here! It is easy to hide drug usage and indeed people who use certain drugs have the capability be unpredictable, cause harm and can be a risk to other for all sorts of reasons. Let alone the fact that they may drive to the show under the influence so therefore be a risk to members of the public also. I for one would not want a person high on crack cocaine, heroin, spice or even good old cannabis near my child or myself! As for a convicted sex offender!!!. A sex offender does not need to touch to become sexually aroused, just a certain look of a child/ young person can cause sexual stimulation. Again I would not want my child in that position. Yes Gill Wales I will give up showing for organisations that do not have full DBS for stewards or Judges, and might I add your stance sickens me to my very core. I shall be making enquires with organisations and also make a report to the OFSTED and DFE regarding my concerns. I honestly believed that all were DBS checked as in any other sport this is a condition of working with children and possibly vulnerable adults. Unfortunately we cannot protect our children from people who have no criminal record however we surely must do our best if we have access to knowledge, or do we turn a blind eye such as we did with Savile, Harris
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Post by gillwales on Feb 16, 2018 12:27:17 GMT
As someone who shows and also works in child protection I am astonished at the naivety of some people on here! It is easy to hide drug usage and indeed people who use certain drugs have the capability be unpredictable, cause harm and can be a risk to other for all sorts of reasons. Let alone the fact that they may drive to the show under the influence so therefore be a risk to members of the public also. I for one would not want a person high on crack cocaine, heroin, spice or even good old cannabis near my child or myself! As for a convicted sex offender!!!. A sex offender does not need to touch to become sexually aroused, just a certain look of a child/ young person can cause sexual stimulation. Again I would not want my child in that position. Yes Gill Wales I will give up showing for organisations that do not have full DBS for stewards or Judges, and might I add your stance sickens me to my very core. I shall be making enquires with organisations and also make a report to the OFSTED and DFE regarding my concerns. I honestly believed that all were DBS checked as in any other sport this is a condition of working with children and possibly vulnerable adults. Unfortunately we cannot protect our children from people who have no criminal record however we surely must do our best if we have access to knowledge, or do we turn a blind eye such as we did with Savile, Harris Quite frankly your stance sickens me, you have been able to write to the Societies, you could then let everyone know what you have discovered be it good or bad and I would have supported you, but no; you have had to try to blacken the reputation of both Societies and Judges. I am however glad that you will not be showing in classes where all those, both Judges and Stewards; who by the way have far more contact with the competitors than the Judges. I do hope that you in your position have to have regular drug tests to ensure you are clean!
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Post by Really? on Feb 16, 2018 12:55:26 GMT
For goodness sake let's get real here. Whilst certainly not condoning any child abuse/exploitation and drug abuse and I understand that we all need to be vigilant and not be afraid of reporting any suspicious behaviour, but really safeguarding? Reading your post do you allow your children to go shopping? go to a park; play on a beach? I am sure a bit like rats you will be never be far away from a drug user of some description on any city street or tube journey! What we can and do need to do is ensure we discuss the dangers with our children so they are aware and not afraid to speak out if anyone tries to intimidate them, just reading the current news re football coach makes me shudder. Our son was on school boy terms with a premier league club and attended football camps. He is now a young adult but it did make me ask him if he ever felt put in a vunerable position, luckily not but there for the grace of God. What we need to ensure is our children NEVER feel they cannot raise concerns or be bullied into silence. But we cannot make them live in a 'glass bubble'. Are you also really suggesting that every person who VOLUNTEERS their time to help at local shows as a steward has a full DBS check? Affiliated judges I do believe have to sign a declaration but as there is no 'official' stewards list how one earth would shows be expected to manage this? You might be giving up showing but why make everyone else do the same, there will be no shows left to attend.
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Post by cynical on Feb 22, 2018 13:00:07 GMT
I cannot see where Safegaurding has "blacken" any reputation or made allegations Gill Wales. I took the post as he/she was going to make enquires and find out who she could show under who DBS checked their judges and stewards! Its appears that your stance is sickening Gill as you are in such defence and you then make a personal attack as per usual. Why would you be " glad he/she is not going to show? You really are petty and vindictive. Are you so self important that your "support" is crucial, read the post the person was not aware checks were not made I am wonder what real judges and stewards think about having a check done, now that would be informative. I for one have nothing to hide and would gladly take a dope test/ alcohol test and DBS, as long as it is not at my expense.
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Post by steward on Feb 22, 2018 15:41:08 GMT
I am a 'real' steward and whilst I personally would be happy to have a DBS check as you suggest, are you seriously suggesting that before wvery show I might steward at I should also undertake a drug/alcohol test? This thread whilst I believe setting off on a genuine enquiry seems to have become highly emotive and personal. I am sure no one connected condones any behaviour that puts anyone child or adult at risk but please lets have some logical common sense here. Whilst it is right and proper that those who come into close contact with children on a regular basis are checked, and maybe judges are? Some do ask for self declaration, just think about stewards for a minute and consider how practical what you are suggesting really is and also is it really necessary? There is no official steward list (apart from BSPS I believe which is a small number of those who actually steward). Shows rely on people locally who are prepared to give up a few hours to assist, for free to help. Unlike most other sports where perhaps more stringent safeguarding is in place, children are not left alone with a judge or a steward, they are always in the public domain. They also probably only meet that steward once a year, apart from the chief stewards at major shows I couldn't tell you the name of many we see in the ring. Personally I have nothing to hide but as a show organiser (2 shows a year) and find it hard enough to even break even and get the help we need how on earth could we possibly drug/alcohol test every person who assists - judges; stewards; course builders etc! The cost; time and also for some who may feel this is an infringement of their personal liberty. What are we talking about here - a glass of wine at lunch which does happen! Surely if competitors/on lookers feel someone is 'under the influence' they can report this to the show secretary. I have seen this happen once with a ride judge, however we also need to be very careful not to start malicious gossip, sometimes people may have an illness not a drink or drug problem. Whilst it is right and proper to look at safeguarding I don't think showing can be compared to other sports where there is close, personal contact with children and allowing this thread to disintegrate into personal attacks does not help a balanced discussion and logical assessment. At with many things as parents we should make our own decisions as to what we feel is best for our children.
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Post by maxandpaddy on Feb 22, 2018 17:26:48 GMT
Such an interesting thread .... as ive already said i think in this day and age Societies have to protect themselves as far as they reasonably can in re-guard to safeguarding everyone - but especially children. Having said that as 'steward' says so well to expect EVERYONE to be DBS checked and breathalysed is pretty ridiculous
Anyone that has regular contact with children or could use their position to gain access and trust with children should be DBS checked, which would include judges and producers who quite often teach outside of a showground.
I see stewards as no different to parent/carer/family/local community residents getting behind fundraisers or similar at a school event - no unsupervised access to children and in sight of all so no ...no DBS needed
As far as the drugs/alcohol question goes Society's should (and probably already have) a Policy and Procedure in place in case an accusation is made, or its suspected someone is under the influence of either. Society's need to be able to demonstrate that they have done everything they can to safeguard the people/children at their shows. Its all about Policies and Procedures (the bane of my life) so that for insurance/liability purposes god forbid anything did happen they've realistically done everything they could to prevent it
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Post by gillwales on Feb 24, 2018 7:35:21 GMT
I cannot see where Safegaurding has "blacken" any reputation or made allegations Gill Wales. I took the post as he/she was going to make enquires and find out who she could show under who DBS checked their judges and stewards! Its appears that your stance is sickening Gill as you are in such defence and you then make a personal attack as per usual. Why would you be " glad he/she is not going to show? You really are petty and vindictive. Are you so self important that your "support" is crucial, read the post the person was not aware checks were not made I am wonder what real judges and stewards think about having a check done, now that would be informative. I for one have nothing to hide and would gladly take a dope test/ alcohol test and DBS, as long as it is not at my expense. You need to read this whole thread thoroughly before making personal attacks, if of course you are a member you could pm me. I am a life member of several Societies, and while I am not the most important person around; far from it, I do have a genuine interest in what happens in and to these Societies. I have put my money where my mouth is! The petty and vindictive person in all of this in the OP, as in posts later in this thread she comments on the accounts of the NPS. As I have clearly stated, if this person had gone about this matter in the correct way of writing to the Societies and raising her concerns, asking the questions and then posting the information on here or other social media sites then I for one would have been behind her 100% if rules had been broken, but no she chose to air them on here, and I do know this as I contacted the NPS and advised the office of this thread. The OP has continued to make underhand comments. So yes personally I am pleased that an out and out trouble maker has decided to leave showing, this post has been yet another slur on the integrity and honesty of Judges, Stewards and those that help to run shows; a thankless task made harder by all of the bashing over the internet.
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Post by fanfarefan on Feb 24, 2018 19:05:43 GMT
Interesting post ,, so i will put my six penneth in ,,,,, if it were to be that a judge has to disclose everything about themselves for Safeguarding ,,,, then surely it should be the same for competitors across the board ,,,, to safe guard judges ,,,, who put themselves in front of goodness knows who,,, do we honestly know what every bodies back ground is ,,,,,, so whats good for the goose is good for the gander
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Post by cynical on Feb 24, 2018 19:39:54 GMT
Usal Gill Wales. .....I read the full thread you patronising person. ... as usal you think you're correct. Check yourself as not everyone will agree with your draconian view. Fanfarefan regarding your post check out people in a position of power! With your idioms that would mean alll children at school should also be checked. .....if you are happy with potential drug abusers and child abusers ariund you chikdre then you and Gill Wales can trott on. Im betting parents that allowed their babies into football coaching are traumatised
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