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Post by gillwales on Feb 25, 2018 15:02:45 GMT
Cynical, it has already been said that Judges are not alone with the children, unlike coaches, it would be far more important for producers to be DRB checked as they are often alone with the children they teach, plus sometimes children will stay with them. I do not come on here as a popularity competition, and really I could not care less what you think. Everybody's views are draconian, but a better way of putting it would be "individual". You have already been told by Caroline that Judges do have to have a DRB check, so what are you moaning about?
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Post by Philippa on Feb 25, 2018 20:08:49 GMT
I personally can’t underst why everyone is arguing among themselves on this subject.
Surely the most important thing everyone should be working together with on this subject is keeping children & vulnerable adults safe.
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Post by steward on Feb 26, 2018 11:20:15 GMT
Cynical - I fail to understand why you think judges/stewards are somehow more potentially dangerous to children at a show? Of course producers/instructors should be checked but I would respectfully suggest that other competitors/ parents/ friends etc at shows pose more of a threat from the things you suggest. Children do play together at shows and run in and out of each others lorries, also these people tend to be driving lorries/trailers and if they are 'under the influence' of alcohol or drugs certainly pose a real Health and Safety threat. I am not being naive of risk but as I said we have to have a reality check here in terms of risk assessment as to what the risk is from judges/stewards who stand in the middle of a field in full public view.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Feb 26, 2018 16:18:11 GMT
"Steward" - well said.
'threats' - risks - come from everywhere. We have to be rational about this.
If we are really going to panic, then - potentially - the 'danger' could come from someone lurking at a Motorway services - in a shop or store - (how many times do you see parents allowing their children to 'play' up and down the counter aisles in big stores - hear them vaguely shout the child's name and get no response - because the kids are deep in play)?. As a 'Child Protection Certified' person / a BHS/BSPS Elite Accredited Trainer / quite apart from the judging and stewarding element - I firmly believe that even in today's difficult 'climate' - once past the age of nappies, children MUST be allowed to begin to use their brains and their senses. But, if it ever comes to it that kids cannot play of an evening at a show, (as a previous, streetwise, sensible poster has said - kids in and out of each others lorries) - then, truly, heaven help us all.
Rationality is key. Allowing them space on a showground where eyes are everywhere is a super place for them to learn about safety. And friendship. Their age and our age. And, that they can TRUST and enjoy the growing maturity of being trusted.
Crucially, providing they have strong ground rules and a 'curfew' (be it meal-time or bed-time), they must be allowed to enjoy the freedom which the relative safety of a showground allows them. Make friendships. Play. Relax, away from being all dressed up like the proverbial tailors dummy all day.
As someone who is a Show Stable Manager and has observed/assisted kids on show-grounds over many decades, I love nothing better than to see them enjoying freedom in comparative safety. Perhaps they'll be dispatched to the Stable Manager's Office by a parent or guardian to pay a late booking fee. Maybe just to buy a Catalogue. And are sent away, happy, with a receipt / Catalogue / whatever - for said cash. That is wonderful. They are being trusted. Introduced to the real world.
And, as for Judges and Stewards in rings - Well . . As one who fulfils both roles - you can't even scratch an itch or blow your nose these days without someone complaining on Social Media that you weren't paying enough attention to their rider's individual show! . . . . "I have it filmed on my tablet/phone" . . . .
Eyes are everywhere during class times.
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Post by disgusted on Feb 26, 2018 21:25:00 GMT
I am truly appalled by the vindictive nature of some of these posts - Gillwales you should be ashamed of yourself saying basically 'if you don't like it, bugger off' - no wonder the societies are struggling for members - with 'life members' like you who needs enemies eh LOL.
I feel the need to remind some of you of a certain Mr Saville - he did not abuse kids in the studio (translate to 'in the ring') - he used his position and celebrity status to his advantage to abuse the kids and young adults behind closed doors a long way away from the studio. Why are some of you so intent on protecting those that don't need protecting? Ie the adults concerned. Why would it be beyond the realms of possibility for a judge or steward to use their 'authority' inside the ring to their advantage outside the ring and when I say outside the ring I mean anywhere outside the ring - even away from the show ground. I am sure all of you will have heard of the phrase 'grooming' - grooming can be carried out anywhere, even remotely.
The stupidity of some who are saying 'why cause the judges and stewards when it could be anyone' is shocking - we cannot check everyone in society - we can only control those we choose to be in authority in our sport.
Caroline - go and tell the abused footballers in the news last week to be rational.
Anyway - no-one is causing anyone of being a child abuser and thankfully although gillwales feels the urge to go crying to the society offices, her draconian approach to this will not be followed!
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Post by viking on Feb 26, 2018 21:38:30 GMT
This thread is going no where, and personal insults and criticism do no one favours. There is no way that total safety can be arrived at either on a show ground or else where. Education and being vigilant is the only answer. Unfortunately utopia cannot, and never will be arrived at !
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Post by Cynical on Feb 27, 2018 21:44:46 GMT
Best check out what draconian means Gill. It totally different to individual.
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Post by Philippa on Feb 27, 2018 22:10:18 GMT
Best check out what draconian means Gill. It totally different to individual. Come on now. Is that really important in the grand scheme of things??? Keep this on track or it will be removed. It's a very current, relevant and highly emotive topic. Work together not against each other to make the whole world a safer place. When you've seen first hand the damage caused by a lack of safeguarding you open your eyes more to things going on around you and are much more cynical unfortunately.
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Post by steward on Feb 28, 2018 13:06:14 GMT
I agree Phillipa however 'disgusted' I do object to being called stupid for suggesting that it could be anyone on a showground who could be a 'risk' to others. I am also assuming (but excuse me as I am obviously stupid) that you mean accuse and not 'cause'? Several very sensible posts have been made and I agree with Caroline's re parental responsibility and guidance. I am not naive or 'stupid' re potential grooming of children but as a parent if anyone - judge;steward;fellow competitor suggested taking my children anywhere or meeting them I would want to know why and would not leave them unaccompanied with people I didn't know and trust. Remember it is just not adults who abuse children, this could be other children as well, I haven't forgotten the Saville case but I also haven't forgotten the Venables case. Yes of course we can all be fooled, but I still maintain the risk is as high from parents of other children, competitors etc. I believe it is up to societies to have policies in place to deal with any potential threats and inappropriate behaviour but all of us also have a responsibility to ensure our children are aware of risk and confident in speaking out, we should also be vigilant to what we observe and not be afraid of questionning if needed.
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Post by disgusted on Apr 6, 2018 12:29:24 GMT
Steward - you keep missing the point of this by a very long way. The point is that people in AUTHORITY must have adequate checks done on them because they are in AUTHORITY. Children look up to them and are very very keen to PLEASE them. Of course parents have responsibility - try ramming that thought down the throat of a parent of a child who has been abused by someone they 'know and trust'. That is the whole point of abusers of this nature - we know and trust them! 99% of abusers are either friends or family members or in this case (or the whole point of this post) someone in AUTHORITY over children. At every major show throughout the year there are children moving around show grounds day and night with friends of their own age and alone. I have seen it, you have seen it. Someone in AUTHORITY could very easily take their position and use it to their benefit. Yes children can be abused by children and someone could come in from outside but that is not what we are talking about here - we are talking about the people in authority that the societies have control over, who they CHOOSE to pick as judges and stewards. You cannot DBS check everyone coming onto a showground but you can DBS check those people who YOU PUT IN AUTHORITY. That my dears is the whole point - we choose to put someone in a position of AUTHORITY then we choose if we are going to look into their background. Oh and steward - I have no idea how old your kids are but I would expect that if they are pre-teenagers or teenagers you do not keep tabs on them at all times on a show ground so yes you do leave them unaccompanied with people you do not 'know and trust'.
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Post by Bravo!!!! on Apr 6, 2018 13:11:38 GMT
Perfectly put Disgusted, perfectly put in an educated and measured manner!
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Post by steward on Apr 6, 2018 13:58:32 GMT
No I am not missing the point and I am not 'your dear'. I totally endorse checks being put in place with those 'in authority' my point is that stewards at local shows are not on any register, or have any form of authority and has already been said are NEVER in a position to be alone with a child, unless you count going to a public toilet and that could apply to anyone. I just cannot see how small shows can be expected to DBS check volunteers who maybe gives an hour or two to help steward. Some of these people step in at the last minute on the day, what do you suggest we do, cancel the class because the person who has stepped in has not been DBS checked? At the Championship/major shows where people do stay away yes of course it is possible as stewards are appointed and usually on an approved list but at one day local shows I feel it is impossible and do question if it is necessary. My point was as parents we all make hopefully reasoned choices and yes I do accept sometimes people are let down by people they have trusted and I certainly would not 'ram that down anyone's throat' I would have the utmost empathy for those people whose trust has been abused. As I have said before, perhaps you missed my point, I am totally supportive of measures to protect children in our sport I just question the levels this can reasonably be applied to.
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Post by sjw87 on Apr 12, 2018 8:31:18 GMT
It is of course important to consider all risks and do what we can to safeguard everyone, including children.
I do think it's important though to bear in mind why showing comes with lower risk than the football issues which have brought this to the forefront. We're not talking about your local sports centre where kids go for a quick game on a weekend. We're talking about football academies where children often live away from home and also go on trips abroad, without much parental contact.
Environments where the end goal is multi-million pound, over glamourised career.
So, not only was it more able to happen due to the children being under the full supervision of the perpetrators, it was also less likely to be reported due to the fact that these kids would do anything to try and achieve their dream.
So, how can we protect children of today? Of course CRB/DBS checking is important but it is only helpful if someone has actually been caught. Would DBS checking have prevented the football abuse? Not at all.
What else can we do in the showing world?
Be sensible about the situations you allow children to be in. In the ring, they are never alone and the greater risk is probably on the lorry park or in the toilets.
Educate children to know the risks, the signs, to get out of the situation and to report it.
Finally, there has been a lot of mention about how people 'in authority' pose a risk due to their status. This is where society and parental influence are key in my mind. As a society, to much emphasis is now put on being famous or 'at the top' than just working hard to have a comfortable life. In the same way as young footballers were obsessed with that potential career and didn't report due to the risk of losing that chance, in the showing world that can be compared with the obsession of some to get to hoys. The more obsessed with an end goal you are as a parent, the less likely you are to see potential threats and the less likely your child is to tell you about an issue. The more obsessed your child is with an end goal (which in the case of hoys has more than likely come from the parents and the showing community), the more likely your child is to allow inappropriate things to happen and also to then not report it.
It's a joint effort and simply DBS checking is not the answer imo.
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Post by sjw87 on Apr 12, 2018 8:46:24 GMT
To add, I don't personally see quite what the OP is getting at in terms of drugs. As above, it's only helpful if already been caught/convicted.
Drug use, whilst I obviously don't condone it, is closely related to alcohol abuse so realistically both should be treated the same. Does someone having a prior drink drive conviction put anyone at risk on the showground itself? Not talking about the journey there and back and obviously if someone is under the influence in the ring then it's an issue but simply having a prior conviction is irrelevant.
Lets be honest, competitors are more likely to be under the influence from the night before's lorry park party or from hip flasks in the collecting ring than the judges and stewards!
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Post by gillwales on Apr 12, 2018 9:11:51 GMT
To add, I don't personally see quite what the OP is getting at in terms of drugs. As above, it's only helpful if already been caught/convicted. Drug use, whilst I obviously don't condone it, is closely related to alcohol abuse so realistically both should be treated the same. Does someone having a prior drink drive conviction put anyone at risk on the showground itself? Not talking about the journey there and back and obviously if someone is under the influence in the ring then it's an issue but simply having a prior conviction is irrelevant. Lets be honest, competitors are more likely to be under the influence from the night before's lorry park party or from hip flasks in the collecting ring than the judges and stewards! I think that the OP has a specific agenda against a Society, from what I have read the NPS, or an individual Judge. The OP has, IMO, been trying to cause trouble for that Society or Judge, I do not think that this is really anything to do with safeguarding children, it is to do with personal vindictiveness. If I am wrong then OP please explain fully, giving your name and the reasons why you posted what you have done with the proof to back any claims or allegations. If this is done and I am wrong then I will make a full apology. Somehow I do not think I will have to. Can anyone on this site say that they have had concerns regarding the safety of their, or any other child in relationship to paedophiles? My children had total freedom at horse shows. especially those held at Three Counties, most people knew my children then, by sight if not by name. I have no doubts that all the adults attending looked out for their safety and welfare. This is a most serious subject and if the OP had any real concerns then they should have been put to the correct Authorities rather than being paraded in social media.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Apr 12, 2018 9:18:20 GMT
Two very realistic posts from sjw87 and this one from GW.
I'm going to add one valid point - much has been made of 'risk in the toilets' at shows. With very few exceptions, the majority of toilet blocks at venues are pitifully small and, at least in the Ladies (I can't speak for the Gents) there is frequently a queue. Therefore, many eyes around to see anything untoward.
Yes, lorry parks/stable areas late at night could pose a risk. But, as I've said previously, children need to be given some slack and be allowed to let their hair down following their day's showing - and perhaps siblings who do not ride, be able to make other friends, too. It isn't all about red rosettes and the flipping elusive 'ticket'. Parental control is vital and if kids are given a curfew time to return to their lorry, they have been given parameters. Additionally, organised 'games' are a brilliant idea. Who remembers Janice Boyd and Chris McMillen's Space Hopper races in the Thistle ring at the Royal Highland?? A fab concept which is replicated in the sheep showing rings of an evening at the same venue. Generations of kids there have enjoyed a seemingly endless game of footie whilst the parents have their own mini-party - but can keep an eye on them.
Most kids have a mobile phone, which the parent or 'guardian' can ring if the child is late for their tea, bedtime or whatever. Time can become lost to a child who is having fun. Bigger shows have 24hr security, plus a Stable Manager's team etc.
Yes, there is potential risk. Everywhere. There is potential risk in the supermarket, the shopping mall or the m'way services. But, lets not get too carried away and build this up out of context. Children need advice and support; they can't be incarcerated in their lorry at shows - they need to be able to 'taste' freedom, to make friends, to enjoy showing which should be fun for them, not a task to be endured as mummy's tailors dummy. Please don't shoot me down here. Ok, I'm not a parent. That was not of choice. But, as a Professional, I have been responsible for other peoples children at shows (often overnight) for over 40 years - and indirectly still am to a degree in a stewarding capacity, including at 'overnight' shows.
Edited to add - Gill Wales might have a point. If that is the case then I totally agree; take the suggested 'incident' or 'suspicion' directly to the Society. Here is not the place.
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Post by gillwales on Apr 12, 2018 9:39:23 GMT
Actually Caroline I meant the Police
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Post by CarolineNelson on Apr 12, 2018 11:16:09 GMT
Actually Caroline I meant the Police GW - one would need direct, hard evidence - surely, far better to hand the situation over to the function's employed Safety personnel to do so, in preference to a private individual wading in??
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Post by gillwales on Apr 12, 2018 12:10:05 GMT
Actually Caroline I meant the Police GW - one would need direct, hard evidence - surely, far better to hand the situation over to the function's employed Safety personnel to do so, in preference to a private individual wading in?? Maybe Caroline, however if I had real concerns and I didn't go to the Police, and my concerns turned out to be true, I'm not sure I could live with myself. I think this is down to a person's judgement at the time. It is what I would do, I am not saying that others should do the same; each person my look to their conscious . My point was originally about the OP and the reasons behind the thread. I did earlier advise the person to write to the Society they had concerns over. It then came out that there appeared to be an agenda behind the thread.
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Post by mcnaughty on Apr 16, 2018 10:13:38 GMT
Perfectly put Disgusted, perfectly put in an educated and measured manner! Yep totally agree. Just a shame that such a serious subject should be discussed so aggressively. We should all be working together to protect everyone from abuse and that includes bullying but unfortunately it seems that some adults feel it is acceptable to shout down any mention that their beloved societies could need shaking up a bit in the area of welfare. Reminiscing about 'fun children's games' is wonderful but not really in keeping with the serious subject of this post. I don't believe anyone is trying to point the finger or stir up trouble and although I am posting as myself some others do not feel happy doing so and that I believe is there prerogative and should show no reflection on the validity of their initial question. This type of discussion is not harmful in any way, in fact it exactly this type of discussion that flags up holes in welfare processes.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Apr 16, 2018 12:24:25 GMT
Perfectly put Disgusted, perfectly put in an educated and measured manner! Yep totally agree. Just a shame that such a serious subject should be discussed so aggressively. We should all be working together to protect everyone from abuse and that includes bullying but unfortunately it seems that some adults feel it is acceptable to shout down any mention that their beloved societies could need shaking up a bit in the area of welfare. Reminiscing about 'fun children's games' is wonderful but not really in keeping with the serious subject of this post.
I don't believe anyone is trying to point the finger or stir up trouble and although I am posting as myself some others do not feel happy doing so and that I believe is there prerogative and should show no reflection on the validity of their initial question. This type of discussion is not harmful in any way, in fact it exactly this type of discussion that flags up holes in welfare processes. "reminiscing about 'fun children's games . . ." etc is perfectly in keeping with this very serious subject. It is an excellent example of sensible parents and guardians organising a function for children to enjoy at a very large show on a very large showground - so that the children have structure and 'guidance' as opposed to possibly being at a loose end. And thus, potentially vulnerable. Others do similarly - eg: the BSPS's well organised 'crèche' and evening entertainment' for the little ones in order to allow parents and older siblings get on with the day in the knowledge that their children are in safe hands. Please note - I too post absolutely as myself. Not a pseudonym, either. I believe that the majority of posts on this extremely serious topic have been made in good heart, with good intentions. It is disturbing when a few, sadly, are slightly flippant. It is not a simply case of " . . . beloved Societies could do with shaking up a bit in the area of welfare". Everyone - all Associations and Societies need to be not only on the ball but pro-actively well ahead of it - as indeed do Parents, Guardians and Carers in regard to child and vulnerable adult protection. The 'topic' "vulnerable adult" in public places is a personal, sensitive subject; I've been at the 'coal face' with a close family member. So, any cynicism needs putting right back where it belongs. Thank you.
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Post by Golden Carrot on May 21, 2018 8:40:36 GMT
This thread has suggested a gold opportunity for showing bodies to request basic DBS checks on all judges. Which society will be leading the way? Now is the time for showing to benefit, become transparent and fall in line with other sporting and equine organisations.
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